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MauroNL

What Are Ya' Buying?
Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,253
The Netherlands
wccftech.com

An Xbox Game Studio Is Experimenting with Shipping Low-Res Textures To Be AI-Upscaled in Real Time

One of the Xbox Game Studios is experimenting with Machine Learning to ship low-res textures that are then upscaled in real time with AI.

In early 2018 Microsoft acquired Playfab, a company that provided tools for back-end games support via the cloud.

Two years on, Playfab founder James Gwertzman is still working as the General Manager of the team, which leverages the power of Microsoft's Azure network. How does Playfab help game developers, though? Gwertzman shared some insights on that in a lengthy interview with the press, transcribed by GamesBeat.

NVIDIA RTX DLSS Check In – It Is Definitely Learning

For example, he revealed that one of Microsoft's internal Xbox Game Studios is attempting to use Machine Learning models to upscale textures in real time through AI. Apparently the results are so identical to the native assets that low resolution textures could be shipped and simply upscaled on the fly.

One of the studios inside Microsoft has been experimenting with using ML models for asset generation. It's working scarily well. To the point where we're looking at shipping really low-res textures and having ML models uprez the textures in real-time. You can't tell the difference between the hand-authored high-res texture and the machine-scaled-up low-res texture, to the point that you may as well ship the low-res texture and let the machine do it.
Like literally not having to ship massive 2K by 2K textures. You can ship tiny textures. The download is way smaller, but there's no appreciable difference in game quality. Think of it more like a magical compression technology. That's really magical. It takes a huge R&D budget. I look at things like that and say — either this is the next hard thing to compete on, hiring data scientists for a game studio, or it's a product opportunity. We could be providing technologies like this to everyone to level the playing field again.
In this case, it only works by training the models on very specific sets. One genre of game. There's no universal texture map. That would be kind of magical. It's more like if you train it on specific textures it works with those, but it wouldn't work with a whole different set.
It's especially good for photorealism, because that adds tons of data. It may not work so well for a fantasy art style. But my point is that I think the fact that that's a technology now — game development has always been hard in terms of the sheer number of disciplines you have to master. Art, physics, geography, UI, psychology, operant conditioning. All these things we have to master.
That's where I come in. At heart, Microsoft is a productivity company. Our employee badge says on the back, the company mission is to help people achieve more. How do we help developers achieve more? That's what we're trying to figure out.
It would be an amazing tool for indie developers, no doubt. We've already seen the wonders of upscaling low-resolution textures of older games through the AI-based ESRGAN (Enhanced Super-Resolution Generative Adversarial Networks) model, but to do that in real time would be even more impressive.

This also makes us wonder what else Microsoft could be doing when it comes to Machine Learning and gaming. We know they've released the DirectML API in Spring 2019, for instance, citing Super-Resolution as one of the possible uses in gaming. There's already an example on PC with NVIDIA's Deep Learning Super-Sampling (DLSS) technology, which exploits the Tensor Cores available in Turing GPUs, whereas AMD previously revealed to be experimenting with DirectML to achieve similar results. Since the Xbox Series X is powered by AMD hardware and Microsoft's own DirectX API, it is conceivable that the new console might support this AI-based technology.
Imagine this being used on Backwards Compatibility titles.....
 

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
Could be an interesting solution to work around bandwidth or hardware limitations, and if they perfect it it's gonna turn backwards compatibility enhancements even better. As long as they keep it optional, I'm sure everyone will enjoy this.
 

Windu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,630
Playfab isn't a Xbox Game Studio. It is a group of technologies for game developers, which is owned by Microsoft.
 

Alexious

Executive Editor for Games at Wccftech
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
909
Playfab isn't a Xbox Game Studio. It is a group of technology for developers owned by Microsoft.

Indeed. As explained in the article, though, they are the ones empowering the developers to do so and they revealed there is an internal studio trying this endeavor.
 

Damaniel

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,536
Portland, OR
I'm not really the one to complain about the environmental impacts of computing power consumption, but is a cut in bandwidth and storage for assets worth the extra cloud CPU costs to upscale things using machine learning?

Not that I'm opposed, mainly curious - and still shocked how well machine learning works at all at upscaling tasks (see the 4k/60 upscaled video of that 1890s train arrival video that popped up in EtcetEra yesterday).
 

bsigg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,556
Isn't this already possible on PC emulators? I'm sure we had a few threads.

That's machine learning to replace the textures in a higher quality as a download, so the textures were improved but it didn't impact the file size in a positive way.

This is realtime, low to high meaning the game could be shipped in a much smaller package if they don't have to package 40GB+ of textures.

Additionally, this means they could also stream games at incredibly small data rates if the hardware is using some ML to process the textures on the device rather than streaming everything possible.
 

Scently

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,464
wccftech.com

An Xbox Game Studio Is Experimenting with Shipping Low-Res Textures To Be AI-Upscaled in Real Time

One of the Xbox Game Studios is experimenting with Machine Learning to ship low-res textures that are then upscaled in real time with AI.


Imagine this being used on Backwards Compatibility titles.....
This isn't PlayFab though. He is saying that a studio within XGS are experimenting with the AI upscaling tech. I personally think it's Ninja Theory as they have been recruiting on experience with ML and AI and smart ways of game development.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
This is the shit that I'm really excited about next gen from a tech standpoint. You guys can have your pissing matches over tflops. The real power comes from empowering devs with tools that allow small or medium cost projects to produce assets that look AAA. When smaller teams can produce bigger worlds or AAA textures without working 80 hour weeks, we'll see a lot more diversity of content with AAA production values. I believe we will see 40 man teams create open worlds with AAA textures and top notch animations in less than 3 year dev cycles sometime soon. When you don't need 300 person teams to create those games, devs will be encouraged to differentiate themself through art and taking chances with gameplay throughout the industry.

I believe this stuff is happening industry wide and eventually will be built into all the major game engines.
 

Teeth

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,940
It's an interesting concept; you train your AI specifically on the textures from your game, then ship that and low res textures and it (nearly) perfectly reconstructs the images locally.

I have a feeling that without dedicated hardware though, this would be way too slow to use in real time, but it's definitely useful for shrinking the size of delivering games. You'd still have to wait for your local machine to reticulate splines generate the higher res assets.

This is the shit that I'm really excited about next gen from a tech standpoint. You guys can have your pissing matches over tflops. The real power comes from empowering devs with tools that allow small or medium cost projects to produce assets that look AAA. When smaller teams can produce bigger worlds or AAA textures without working 80 hour weeks, we'll see a lot more diversity of content with AAA production values. I believe we will see 40 man teams create open worlds with AAA textures and top notch animations in less than 3 year dev cycles sometime soon. When you don't need 300 person teams to create those games, devs will be encouraged to differentiate themself through art and taking chances with gameplay throughout the industry.

I believe this stuff is happening industry wide and eventually will be built into all the major game engines.

This wouldn't really save in dev time though, as you'd still create the high res assets and then train an AI on them. It just saves on the amount of data that needs to be transported to the end user from the distributor (either disc or digital download).
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
It's an interesting concept; you train your AI specifically on the textures from your game, then ship that and low res textures and it (nearly) perfectly reconstructs the images locally.

I have a feeling that without dedicated hardware though, this would be way too slow to use in real time, but it's definitely useful for shrinking the size of delivering games. You'd still have to wait for your local machine to reticulate splines generate the higher res assets.



This wouldn't really save in dev time though, as you'd still create the high res assets and then train an AI on them. It just saves on the amount of data that needs to be transported to the end user from the distributor (either disc or digital download).

Have to look at how this will evolve. Eventually you have teams or organizations that build these ML tools packaged with assets. The cook doesn't have to start from scratch every time.
 

Teeth

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,940
Have to look at how this will evolve. Eventually you have teams or organizations that build these ML tools packaged with assets. The cook doesn't have to start from scratch every time.

But....that wouldn't really change what happens already. That already exists. They'd just be smaller sizes to download.

They wouldn't be cheaper either, as the high res stuff would have to be made in the first place, then an AI would have to be built to scan it. There's already lots of asset generating businesses out there (especially for photogrammetry). I guess you could build an AI that would create lots of variant assets from scanning other assets...but those assets would still need to be made.
 

Pottuvoi

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,065
Would be nice for Rage.

Currently there is bicubic filter with sharpening option after largest mipmap.
It creates new mip levels and it is basically displayed without knowledge from texturing.

Change that pass with ML and it should work as is. (and hopefully have better quality.)
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
But....that wouldn't really change what happens already. That already exists. They'd just be smaller sizes to download.

They wouldn't be cheaper either, as the high res stuff would have to be made in the first place, then an AI would have to be built to scan it. There's already lots of asset generating businesses out there (especially for photogrammetry). I guess you could build an AI that would create lots of variant assets from scanning other assets...but those assets would still need to be made.

I feel like most people here...including people in tech are underestimating MLs future impact even as it relates to creatives. After awhile the training becomes streamlined. Common asset types become more widely available.
 

Sesha

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,827
The time is running out for companies being able to sell remasters of their old games using machine learning to upscale textures.

I wish Capcom would get on RE1-3, Dino Crisis 1-2 and Onimusha 2&3 remasters, stat.

Edit: Maybe I misunderstood what this article is about. Game-specific in-box upscaling of new titles, not dynamic upscaling of old games (sans a patch to enable it).
 
Last edited:

Damaniel

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,536
Portland, OR
I feel like most people here...including people in tech are underestimating MLs future impact even as it relates to creatives. After awhile the training becomes streamlined. Common asset types become more widely available.

Inevitably, the large game engines will build this functionality right into their pipelines, so the training work is done behind the scenes without asset designers having to even think about it.
 

gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,341
America
We are not limited by storage and internet speed. Storage is cheap and game preloading basically gives you infinite internet speed as far as installation goes.. We are limited by real time processing power.

Therefore, games are NOT going to start shipping with microtextures to be upscaled in Real time. That's crazy. That processing power would be best used on anti-aliasing or Ray tracing or whatever else.

Games are NOT going to start generating big textures before starting the game (as part of the install process) because internet speed is infinite like I said.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,618
Spain
We are not limited by storage and internet speed. Storage is cheap and game preloading basically gives you infinite internet speed as far as installation goes.. We are limited by real time processing power.

Therefore, games are NOT going to start shipping with microtextures to be upscaled in Real time. That's crazy. That processing power would be best used on anti-aliasing or Ray tracing or whatever else.

Games are NOT going to start generating big textures before starting the game (as part of the install process) because internet speed is infinite like I said.
Yeah, this is impressive but it's the least of the problems in gaming tech these days.
 

SapientWolf

Member
Nov 6, 2017
6,565
We are not limited by storage and internet speed. Storage is cheap and game preloading basically gives you infinite internet speed as far as installation goes.. We are limited by real time processing power.

Therefore, games are NOT going to start shipping with microtextures to be upscaled in Real time. That's crazy. That processing power would be best used on anti-aliasing or Ray tracing or whatever else.

Games are NOT going to start generating big textures before starting the game (as part of the install process) because internet speed is infinite like I said.
Doesn't have to be real time. The tech would give them the ability to update textures for improved hardware without the need for devs to bill hours.
 

gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,341
America
Doesn't have to be real time. The tech would give them the ability to update textures for improved hardware without the need for devs to bill hours.

Sure, this is possible. Most textures are mastered at 4k today though so this will be mostly useful for legacy games I reckon.

i also anticipate the technique to get better and better as the OG resolution increases so it should do wonders upscaling 4k assets for 8k in 10 or 15 years.
 

Lorul2

Member
Jan 4, 2018
770
It's almost AS IF Xbox is going to sell two consoles next-gen. One that is a traditional console and another that only lives in the cloud and can stream next-gen games to your existing Xbox hardware or PC (or phone).