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Piranha Games’ president on Epic Store: “700 out of 20,000 people asked for a refund on the first day”

Poetic Injustice

Poetic Injustice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,071
In a recent AMA with NoGutsNoGalaxy, Piranha Games' president revealed some new details about MechWarrior 5's Epic Store deal. Bullocks claimed that the consequences of the team's decision to release Mechwarrior 5 exclusively on the Epic Games Store weren't that huge.
As Bullock claimed, only 700 out of 20,000 people asked for a refund on the first day after Piranha Games announced that the game would be releasing exclusively on the Epic Games Store. This basically means that only 3.5% of the pre-orders were refunded. Obviously, we don't know whether that number has been increased over the next couple of days.
Furthermore, Bullock stated Pirahna Games pays for the refunds of Mechwarrior 5, without Epic Games helping them. This came as a surprise as a lot of people thought that Epic Games would be handling the refunds. After all, that's what happened with Shenmue 3.
From the looks of it, the negative impact of Piranha Games' decision wasn't that big. This is definitely good news for the developers as they can focus on making a great game, without having to worry about the refunds.
Bullock re-stated that while Piranha Games is aware the hatred towards the Epic Games Store. Still, he believes that this exclusivity will benefit the game in the long run.
 

TheTrain

Member
Oct 27, 2017
610
As far as I know they had the 20%, out of 20'000, refunded on the second day. After that they haven't shared number anymore so...
 
BeI

BeI

Member
Dec 9, 2017
6,023
Could have sworn it was over 1400 last I heard. I don't blame them because they didn't get what they were promised. They bought into the idea of a Steam copy, then Epic directly bought them as customers onto their store. Now they could only play the game they bought on a worse anti-consumer store or not at all, through no fault of there own, after themselves being treated like an object for sale.
 

Deleted member 203

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,899
idk 3,5% sounds like a rather large number for just one day. While Epic no doubt made this financially interesting for the devs, I think it's too early to say whether or not it will be good for the game's sales or online community in the long run. Do we know if games actually sell well on EGS? Have they thrown enough money at enough devs yet to have a big enough market?
 
spineduke

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,783
mazi said:
why only share the first day number?
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damage control, and to encourage other devs who are worried about backlash. I dunno, I can see some getting away with minor refunds, it really depends on the expectations of your audience and what was previously messaged to them.
 

Deleted member 45414

Banned
Jun 26, 2018
3,829
Obviously, we don't know whether that number has been increased over the next couple of days.
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14COhR2.jpg


Seriously though, if it hadn't increased beyond the first day, there'd be no need for the qualifier of "On the first day".
 

IamFlying

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 6, 2019
765
And most of these people will buy the game later anyway at launch or someday on Steam.

So the developer had probably not many sales lost but earns much more money and probably a big exclusivity "bonus" from epic on top.
 
derFeef

derFeef

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Oct 26, 2017
16,444
Austria
User Warned: Trolling
IamFlying said:
And most of these people will buy the game later anyway at launch or someday on Steam.

So the developer had probably not many sales lost but earns much money and probably a big exclusivity "bonus" from epic on top.
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If your game is bad no one will buy it. Thanks to the Epic Store beta testers we will know one year in advance.
 
dennett316

dennett316

Member
Nov 2, 2017
2,987
Blackpool, UK
They always say that don't they? "Exclusivity will benefit the game". How? In what way is it a benefit, what does it do to improve the game? Console exclusivity I can almost understand, because it enables the dev to focus on a single platform's features and specs in a way that handling several ports wouldn't allow. That doesn't really apply to PC though, so what exactly is the benefit to the game to not be on as many storefronts as possible? I mean, I know the real answer is the guaranteed money the devs got for signing the deal, but that'd make them seem a bit greedy so they don't say that.
The wishy-washy PR speak gets really irritating the more you hear it, especially in the games industry where they're really bad at lying about it and constantly contradict themselves.
 
BassForever

BassForever

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Oct 25, 2017
30,022
CT
BeImonkey said:
Could have sworn it was over 1400 last I heard. I don't blame them because they didn't get what they were promised. They bought into the idea of a Steam copy, then Epic directly bought them as customers onto their store. Now they could only play the game they bought on a worse anti-consumer store or not at all, through no fault of there own, after themselves being treated like an object for sale.
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Which still isn't that much all things considered.
 
Cecil

Cecil

Chicken Chaser
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Oct 25, 2017
3,464
How did they crowdfund this? Kickstarter? Fig? Their own site?
 
Klobrille

Klobrille

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,360
Germany
dennett316 said:
They always say that don't they? "Exclusivity will benefit the game". How? In what way is it a benefit, what does it do to improve the game? Console exclusivity I can almost understand, because it enables the dev to focus on a single platform's features and specs in a way that handling several ports wouldn't allow. That doesn't really apply to PC though, so what exactly is the benefit to the game to not be on as many storefronts as possible? I mean, I know the real answer is the guaranteed money the devs got for signing the deal, but that'd make them seem a bit greedy so they don't say that.
The wishy-washy PR speak gets really irritating the more you hear it, especially in the games industry where they're really bad at lying about it and constantly contradict themselves.
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They get money from Epic. Of course this will boost the studio budget and ultimately the game quality - which is just exactly what they said. More money = more quality and marketing. Piranha Games future pretty much relies on Mech Warrior 5. The decision to accept such an offer is completely understandable from the viewpoint of a small independent studio.

What you think about Epic from the other perspective is a different topic. But blaming the team or even accuse them of "lying" is just not right.
 

Deleted member 45414

Banned
Jun 26, 2018
3,829
I don't blame someone for not requesting a refund for something they already paid for. I'm not asking a refund for my Shenmue 3 backing, because I intent to give away my code instead.
 
Blizz

Blizz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,432
dennett316 said:
They always say that don't they? "Exclusivity will benefit the game". How? In what way is it a benefit, what does it do to improve the game? Console exclusivity I can almost understand, because it enables the dev to focus on a single platform's features and specs in a way that handling several ports wouldn't allow. That doesn't really apply to PC though, so what exactly is the benefit to the game to not be on as many storefronts as possible? I mean, I know the real answer is the guaranteed money the devs got for signing the deal, but that'd make them seem a bit greedy so they don't say that.
The wishy-washy PR speak gets really irritating the more you hear it, especially in the games industry where they're really bad at lying about it and constantly contradict themselves.
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In what world guaranteed funding isn't a benefit for the game? They can achieve their vision now without having to worry if they have food on the table at the end of the month.
 
derFeef

derFeef

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,444
Austria
Blizz said:
In what world guaranteed funding isn't a benefit for the game? They can achieve their vision now without having to worry if they have food on the table at the end of the month.
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This is such a strawman argument. The game will be the game. The minimum amount of delay will not make it a totally different game or "achieve their vision"
WIll it be more polished? Yes. Will it be a much better game? Probably not, unless they start over.
 
Eumi

Eumi

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,518
dennett316 said:
They always say that don't they? "Exclusivity will benefit the game". How? In what way is it a benefit, what does it do to improve the game? Console exclusivity I can almost understand, because it enables the dev to focus on a single platform's features and specs in a way that handling several ports wouldn't allow. That doesn't really apply to PC though, so what exactly is the benefit to the game to not be on as many storefronts as possible? I mean, I know the real answer is the guaranteed money the devs got for signing the deal, but that'd make them seem a bit greedy so they don't say that.
The wishy-washy PR speak gets really irritating the more you hear it, especially in the games industry where they're really bad at lying about it and constantly contradict themselves.
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If the game is still in development, a huge influx of funding will almost certainly benefit the game.
 
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico

Tuco Benedicto Pacifico

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
8,466
BassForever said:
Which still isn't that much all things considered.
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I mean, a "mere" 1,000 refunds would already be roughly 5% of the total preorders gone in the first day or so, with more to follow in the subsequent days.
And that's supposed to be your most loyal user base too. The impact on the general audience will be even harder to estimate.

It's definitely nothing I would cheer about.
 
Miles Davis

Miles Davis

Alt account
Banned
Jun 22, 2019
802
I always find these first day posts hilarious. How about you release a two week post and we'll take you seriously.

I hope it was a big sack of cash though.
 

TheTrain

Member
Oct 27, 2017
610
spineduke said:
thanks! that number seems to only cover a specific community as well.
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It would be cool to have official numbers available but I know that it's impossible. Surely it tells something the fact the no one says anything related to the preorder/refund ratio when a deal with Epic is in place...
 
ShinUltramanJ

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,950
Piranha Games is doing Mechwarrior?!

The clunkiness and awful combat's going to be amusing. I don't care how big the money hat is because Piranha Games is still Piranha Games.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
And how many potential customers don't even know the game exist because of the EGS deal?
 
Arkanius

Arkanius

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,144
0 refunds so far since Shenmue 3 announced the move to EGS

I can also spin stories to defend Epic
 
City 17

City 17

Member
Oct 25, 2017
913
So it can be any number between 700 and 20K. That's as transparent as the EGS sales numbers.
 
Blizz

Blizz

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Oct 25, 2017
2,432
derFeef said:
This is such a strawman argument. The game will be the game. The minimum amount of delay will not make it a totally different game or "achieve their vision"
WIll it be more polished? Yes. Will it be a much better game? Probably not, unless they start over.
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I'm not talking about delays though, I'm talking about how Epic helping pay dev costs benefits the game and the developers, if they have guaranteed money, it's obvious that they'll be able to achieve more than if they didn't have it, just common sense really.
 

Software Update

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,227
People who think that money from epic deals will result in better games, and not just bigger bonuses, are kidding themselves.
 
Thorrgal

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,473
derFeef said:
This is such a strawman argument. The game will be the game. The minimum amount of delay will not make it a totally different game or "achieve their vision"
WIll it be more polished? Yes. Will it be a much better game? Probably not, unless they start over.
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More polished is not better? What?
 
spineduke

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,783
Blizz said:
I'm not talking about delays though, I'm talking about how Epic helping pay dev costs benefits the game and the developers, if they have guaranteed money, it's obvious that they'll be able to achieve more than if they didn't have it, just common sense really.
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Most of the Epic deals are at the tail end of development, close to release. I'd say it can potentially improve post-release support, but even then thats not a guarantee. A lot of deals have the money going to the publisher, not to the devs themselves which further obfuscates whats really being done with it.
 
Rolodzeo

Rolodzeo

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Nov 10, 2017
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Poetic Injustice said:
This is definitely good news for the developers as they can focus on making a great game, without having to worry about the refunds.
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You mean... like having said no to the EGS deal in the first place?

I find these kind of reports incredibly bizarre. It really shows that the developers/publishers/etc only care about the money and nothing else: "Oh, only a few hundred people who were actual customers decided to not play our game? That's not too bad, isn't it?"

How are you supposed to take that attitude towards your audience? How can you defend your decision based on that you now have fewer people enjoying your game than before because you decided to take the money? It's a really weird strategy in my mind. I'd assume that companies wanted to have as many customers as possible, but nope, players can go fuck themselves as long as they get the money one way or another, as having you to play their game, therefore creating and mantaining a fanbase, is the least of their concerns apparently.
 
justiceiro

justiceiro

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
6,664
Rolodzeo said:
How are you supposed to take that attitude towards your audience? How can you defend your decision based on that you now have fewer people enjoying your game than before because you decided to take the money? It's a really weird strategy in my mind. I'd assume that companies wanted to have as many customers as possible, but nope, players can go fuck themselves as long as they get the money one way or another, as having you to play their game, therefore creating and mantaining a fanbase, is the least of their concerns apparently.
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If you want as much consumer as possible, you go mainstream, not indie. Indie is all about making the game you want, not having everyone to play it.

Not like a consumer who dicth your game just because you changed stores were that interested or would be that loyal to you in the future. So, win win.
 
Komo

Komo

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Jan 3, 2019
7,112
Lol what a weird metric to say. I feel like they thought just saying the lowest number they could find was their best bet to show the least amount of backlash
 
Reinhard

Reinhard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,648
Without any preorder discount, why even preorder a digital game far in advance. So it is only the most hard core of fans, so it isn't surprising that the number isn't 50-70%. And why only talk about day 1 on refunds instead of week 1 refunds, it makes it seem like they have something to hide and is only PR control for EGS since they don't want to bad mouth them. I wouldn't be surprised if the number is more in the 10-25% range.

All I know is that now I'll either play the game on PC Game Pass or someday buy it on a Steam sale when it's 60-75% off, screw them. The only EGS exclusive I'll immediately buy when it finally gets to Steam is BL3 and that is only a 6 month delay.
 
gebler

gebler

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Oct 27, 2017
1,276
dennett316 said:
I mean, I know the real answer is the guaranteed money the devs got for signing the deal, but that'd make them seem a bit greedy so they don't say that.
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I really don't think you should equate money issues with greed. Making games takes a lot of money, and independent studios often have chronic cash flow problems, having problems just keeping afloat and making payroll each month. Also, game development is risky, and it's easy to burn a lot of money on a game that ultimately loses money. A self-funded studio needs to make a healthy profit on its successful games to survive the unsuccessful ones.
 
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