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Nairume

SaGa Sage
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,019
but issues surrounding rights can be complicated
I spent about four years working in archives and, though my work with AV media was somewhat limited (aside from a summer that was entirely spent on curating a massive video collection for one of our donors' records), I can vouch for how much rights and other legal matters can really impact what you are able to do with regards to accessing things. It's not like preservation itself wasn't being harmed by some things not being openly available for access.

We see it when every time some company sends a C&D to whatever rom site has caught there eye the argument is always "but what about preservation" as if awesomeamazingfreeroms .com is the video game equivalent of a museum or the national archives, and not just a quick way for someone to make money with the amount of ads that are crammed onto every page.
Trying to pretend these sites are anything even remotely to do about preservation is rather insulting to actual preservation projects.
Preach. A while back, I was researching versions of the original Wizardry for a small project of mine, and there's an depressing reality that, because the warez/rom scene doesn't actually care about proper preservation, the original IBM PC port of Wizardry 1 is mixed up with a more recent and much more common revision of the game from a Wizardry Compilation CD (which also made it easier for these sites to just upload the other games in the series). They always label it as the original 80s port, but it's always the 90s port that features some key differences. You don't even need to download it to know that they are hosting a different version of the game than what they are claiming. It's a total farce of what preservation actually is.

Also, let's be real, you don't also need to even check most rom sites to know that a lot of them are still passing around versions of roms that were modified to play nicely with older emulators.
 
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SkoomaBlade

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,054
Preservation without accessibility (accessibility to whom? In what form?) is not pointless. Preservation has value in and of itself, history being saved.

And playing any particular game is not some human right. If you don't have the right to play something, that's it, you don't get to. 'It was meant to be played!' isn't an argument against that.

Might just as well say 'cars are meant to be driven so therefore everyone should be able to experience driving a Lamborghini'. Reality is you have to pay if you want that experience, and nobody has a right to have any particular experience if someone else owns it.
You're right it isn't completely pointless. I got a bit carried away there, there is obviously also an inherent value in preserving it solely for historical purposes. I would argue however, that being an interactive entertainment medium makes it unique and it is something that does needs to be experienced to be appreciated. I believe that context is important and the context of being an interactive medium means we have to approach it differently.

If an art museum preserves an important piece of art, it can put it up for display, we pay an entrance fee and we go check it out, "experiencing" this piece of art in a relatively short time span. It is accessible. If your local historical film society has a vault of old films, they can screen it at their theatre, we pay a fee, and we can experience it in a couple of hours. It is accessible. Accessibility for video games is a completely different beast. Some games are tied to specific hardware. Some games take dozens upon dozens of hours to complete and it sitting in some closed vault for preservation doesn't do anybody any good. You can't apply the same old conventions of preservations for a wholly unique piece of human creativity that is made in digital code.

Again, if IP holders make a game accessible then I have no issue with holders protecting their IP.

And I'm going to ignore your completely ridiculous comparison of a luxury vehicle, that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, to a piece of interactive entertainment.
 

McScroggz

The Fallen
Jan 11, 2018
5,975
The form is preservation that matters to me is the almost literal definition. I think about the McDonalds training DS game as a great example. Something so rare it seemed like it might not even be possible to play, and even if you acquired a copy you might not be able to play the game because you need a code. There's a fantastic video on the saga I'll link here:



Ultimately I think there is an inherent grey area with this topic. Can a game be bought on a current marketplace? How rare is it? Are there plans to rerelease it? Does it even have a clear rights holder?

What I do not think is a great argument despite some fundamental hypocrisy baked into my perspective, is the idea of pirating a game if it's not on a system you want to play it on. If somebody pirates a game because it's on a last generation console and they don't want to hook it back up, that's shitty (and also probably doesn't really happen much). If somebody wants to play a game that was released on a game platform from 35 years ago that sold 10,000 units and the game publisher is defunct and there isn't a clear rights holder...yeah I'm not going to judge somebody for that. I don't know where the line is.
 

TSM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,846
It's hard to feel bad for a company trying to remove from the internet a 20+ year old game prototype that should probably have entered the public domain if laws were so strongly tilted toward IP rights holders. However if someone were redistributing the work that the new company did, then I absolutely agree that's a problem.
 

Chindogg

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,246
East Lansing, MI
I don't mind people trying to play games they could never play before. What I do mind are the people saying shit like it's a moral good to steal games because certain companies didn't make them available for the most modern console yet released them recently on other mediums.

If you're gonna pirate modern games or widely available games, just accept that you're not in the moral right and don't try to justify it.
 

Arebours

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
I don't mind people trying to play games they could never play before. What I do mind are the people saying shit like it's a moral good to steal games because certain companies didn't make them available for the most modern console yet released them recently on other mediums.

If you're gonna pirate modern games or widely available games, just accept that you're not in the moral right and don't try to justify it.
The law is the lowest form of morality. We don't base what's right and wrong on the legality of things. You didn't say that, but you used words like steal which implies that's what you meant.

I happen to think the current copyright system is morally wrong and I have a hard time justifying any copyright scheme that extends more than say 15 years.
 

Chindogg

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,246
East Lansing, MI
The law is the lowest form of morality. We don't base what's right and wrong on the legality of things.

I happen to think the current copyright system is morally wrong and I have a hard time justifying any copyright scheme that extends more than say 15 years.

Sure, but that doesn't mean you're justified to steal their stuff just because you don't believe in the law.

Honestly I don't care if you pirate, I used to in college because I was poor. I'm just asking you to not pretend that you're being morally righteous for doing it.
 

Arebours

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
User banned (1 week): advocating piracy; prior ban for the same
Sure, but that doesn't mean you're justified to steal their stuff just because you don't believe in the law.

Honestly I don't care if you pirate, I used to in college because I was poor. I'm just asking you to not pretend that you're being morally righteous for doing it.
At some point I don't consider the exclusive copyright justified anymore. I have a different set of criteria(that I also think are fair for the IP owner/authors) which I happen to think are more morally in the right than the current law. So no I actually do think I am morally in the clear. Obviously that won't prevent me from getting caught and for that reason I don't pirate because I have other things at stake. But morally depending on circumstances I think unsanctioned copying is perfectly defensible.
 
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arcadepc

Banned
Dec 28, 2019
1,925
What I worry is that they include all versions of the game .

Eg GOG has only the floppy version of mortal kombat 1-3, yet there exist also superior cdrom windows versions with cd audio. Should have included those versions instead abd dos as extras.

Yet abandonware sites removed this as well, prompting to buy the inferior gog version

Same for Phantasmagoria 2 windows version with better fmv quality and with a fan patch that makes it compatible with newer systems. That is not helping preservation at all as those companies do not have the means, neither the interest for preservation and are only interested in the commercial aspect, even Nintendo

Also in systems like Amiga some games had such protection that even cracks are playable on a real amiga only. Winuae author does not focus on the very tedious decryption aspect of Amiga.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,373
I spent about four years working in archives and, though my work with AV media was somewhat limited (aside from a summer that was entirely spent on curating a massive video collection for one of our donors' records), I can vouch for how much rights and other legal matters can really impact what you are able to do with regards to accessing things. It's not like preservation itself wasn't being harmed by some things not being openly available for access.


Preach. A while back, I was researching versions of the original Wizardry for a small project of mine, and there's an depressing reality that, because the warez/rom scene doesn't actually care about proper preservation, the original IBM PC port of Wizardry 1 is mixed up with a more recent and much more common revision of the game from a Wizardry Compilation CD (which also made it easier for these sites to just upload the other games in the series). They always label it as the original 80s port, but it's always the 90s port that features some key differences. You don't even need to download it to know that they are hosting a different version of the game than what they are claiming. It's a total farce of what preservation actually is.

Also, let's be real, you don't also need to even check most rom sites to know that a lot of them are still passing around versions of roms that were modified to play nicely with older emulators.
Mainly the older rom sites though have that issue. With all of the clean dumps being readily available on reddit or Archive.org, most of the stuff floating around from the NES onward are straight rips.

Whether or not people have straight rips given that a lot of people downloaded their roms in 2005 and probably still use an old version of SNES9x is another matter.
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,914
JP
I guess I side with the idea that preservation without accessibility is not ideal. I would never argue that it's okay to pirate modern games that require actual market success for the survival of the studio, series, platform, etc. - but people widely distributing old games that are not accessible otherwise is a good thing IMHO. I can tell you growing up, abandonware and ROM sites were pretty popular in Mexico and were pretty much the only option for many kids who could absolutely not afford to buy modern games/consoles (and this is why F2P is massive in markets like Latin America).

And well, I do believe piracy is best dealt with by offering easy, reasonably priced access to media.
 

dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,703
Tel Aviv
What I do have a problem with is people who download a game off some random rom site and then try to pretend they're not pirating the game, they're preserving it.
We see it when every time some company sends a C&D to whatever rom site has caught there eye the argument is always "but what about preservation" as if awesomeamazingfreeroms .com is the video game equivalent of a museum or the national archives, and not just a quick way for someone to make money with the amount of ads that are crammed onto every page.
Trying to pretend these sites are anything even remotely to do about preservation is rather insulting to actual preservation projects.
Nah, sorry. These sites are the closest thing we have to a free public museum accessible to the public (besides the internet archive library) - So in many ways they are preserving the games. The reason the people doing it are sketchy fucks who fill the site with ads and viruses is the failing of the industry to provide classic and culturally impactful games in an accessible and affordable way.
I mean, it's not like when you're buying the game, when it's re-released in an over-priced collection full of other games I don't want, the people who actually made it get anything for it. They don't get dividends or whatever - the publisher just got some easy money because copyright laws are fucked.

Preservation without accessibility is a bullshit elitist idea. The ideal should always be preservation with accessibility, which is why so many countries have free museums or ways to get to museums for free in some way.
 

purseowner

From the mirror universe
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,445
UK
The form is preservation that matters to me is the almost literal definition. I think about the McDonalds training DS game as a great example. Something so rare it seemed like it might not even be possible to play, and even if you acquired a copy you might not be able to play the game because you need a code. There's a fantastic video on the saga I'll link here:



Ultimately I think there is an inherent grey area with this topic. Can a game be bought on a current marketplace? How rare is it? Are there plans to rerelease it? Does it even have a clear rights holder?

What I do not think is a great argument despite some fundamental hypocrisy baked into my perspective, is the idea of pirating a game if it's not on a system you want to play it on. If somebody pirates a game because it's on a last generation console and they don't want to hook it back up, that's shitty (and also probably doesn't really happen much). If somebody wants to play a game that was released on a game platform from 35 years ago that sold 10,000 units and the game publisher is defunct and there isn't a clear rights holder...yeah I'm not going to judge somebody for that. I don't know where the line is.

Whilst fascinating, don't give sexual predator Nick Robinson views.
 

BlueKaty

Member
Nov 30, 2020
274
Preservation in the sense of having a game sitting in a museum in mint condition isn't something that I find great at all. Same goes for music, movies etc. because technically speaking the museum doesn't own the rights to that so it should not be allowed to make money for it with an entry fee. If we forget about the $ stuff it's still not ideal because there's no way I would travel thousands of miles to get 5 minutes of play time on the last remaining Space Invaders arcade. The best I would have is watching a documentary of someone visiting the museum and seeing him play the thing, how exciting.

Now Piko is in the right to DMCA everything since they own the rights. I doubt it would have any impact on the sales for their Glover cartridge replicas though, that's like an extreme niche, who buys N64 games in 2021? Everyone who still remembers and wants to play that game now has a ROM or cartridge already. Porting the game to steam/xbox/switch/playstation would make them more money I bet.
 

Foffy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,400
Preservation for me should at least involve games that are not currently and easily available. For example, arcade games, discontinued MMOs, and the WiiWare catalog all apply as examples: these are products you likely can't buy even if you had the money on hand because of factors beyond one's control. To look at one particular series, the act of preserving WiiWare in this way is the singular way you can play Castlevania: The Adventure Rebirth if you didn't buy it before, and the failure to preserve games is why the arcade title Castlevania: THE ARCADE will likely only ever exist in off screen footage from niche places that have a functional machine. These are both games you cannot currently buy from a store, yet only one is actually available to you in any matter at all.

If it's something that doesn't meet those criteria, it's one of two things: people don't want to buy a new product, or don't want to invest in all the costs that go into playing an older product. I'd have more of an issue with the former than the latter, as old machines and old games will eventually fall into factors where even if one wants to play it, there's simply not enough machines that work, if the save battery is dead, or that replacing parts costs more than the machine was worth, etc.

If a company is releasing a product only maintained in this grey restoration space, I would say as a fan of that product and/or practice, I'd comply with the wishes of the current owner and support the product they release. A few companies have actually done a pretty good job making various arcade games viable again. Knowing that games like Rage of the Dragons will eventually be released and titles like The Fallen Angels will actually have a finished version released after 20 years is cool stuff, and part of the reason those things are possible is because interest was kept in those games by their engagement in this grey space of preservation.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,261
Sydney
I think I'm ok with a company buying rights to make new/future games for abandoned IPs since there's some sort of value add but I really don't like the practice of throwing weight around on past titles you had nothing to do with.

It just seems inevitable business development guys will swoop in on any abandonware that ever gets remotely noticeable attentions.
 

Professor Beef

Official ResetEra™ Chao Puncher
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,506
The Digital World
The argument is always for "preservation" but people always mean "availability." The discourse has been poisoned so much that any honest wish for actual legit preservation from the average person simply cannot be trusted anymore. I wish people would be more honest, because just wanting to play with a toy doesn't give you the right to pirate it.
I don't mind people trying to play games they could never play before. What I do mind are the people saying shit like it's a moral good to steal games because certain companies didn't make them available for the most modern console yet released them recently on other mediums.
More or less my feelings on it.
 

sheaaaa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,556
At some point I don't consider the exclusive copyright justified anymore. I have a different set of criteria(that I also think are fair for the IP owner/authors) which I happen to think are more morally in the right than the current law. So no I actually do think I am morally in the clear. Obviously that won't prevent me from getting caught and for that reason I don't pirate because I have other things at stake. But morally depending on circumstances I think unsanctioned copying is perfectly defensible.

"Not believing in the system" is a really flimsy justification for defending piracy and feeling like it's OK to pirate games.
 

Glio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
24,655
Spain
I have seen so many times "preservation" in topics that talk about games that have been released just a few weeks ago so as not to have a cynical view of the matter.
 

entrydenied

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
7,647
My line is divided by whether the game is still available for purchase via offline and online retailers. I'm not going to pay collectors' marked up prices to play old games. The original owner/creator doesn't benefit from those sales.

I don't really see the average gamer hoarding things as doing preservation work so 99% of iso/ rom downloaders, who don't own the original, are just pirates, not game preservers.
 

Murfield

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,425
I don't see the value of preservation with limited accessibility for the sake of limiting accessibility.

For rare physical objects you can't copy and create more of the original piece, so museums are necessary to facilitate public accessibility.

For software (or arguably film) that does not have this inherent limitation, I think it should be made publicly available if the developers/filmmakers have no interest in continuing to sell or distribute the product. I am not sure who is to benefit from allowing the art to only be displayed in a museum.

Comparing software to physical objects in this context is a strawman argument: they are not the same at all.
 

Alvis

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,272
Something I don't understand is: Is the prototype for Glover or for Glover 2?

In any case, I'll never be against preservation of prototypes.

Now please go leak the Spaceworld build of Super Mario 64.
 

D.Lo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,348
Sydney
Nah, sorry. These sites are the closest thing we have to a free public museum accessible to the public (besides the internet archive library) - So in many ways they are preserving the games. The reason the people doing it are sketchy fucks who fill the site with ads and viruses is the failing of the industry to provide classic and culturally impactful games in an accessible and affordable way.
I mean, it's not like when you're buying the game, when it's re-released in an over-priced collection full of other games I don't want, the people who actually made it get anything for it. They don't get dividends or whatever - the publisher just got some easy money because copyright laws are fucked.

Preservation without accessibility is a bullshit elitist idea. The ideal should always be preservation with accessibility, which is why so many countries have free museums or ways to get to museums for free in some way.
Elitist? So explain what you mean by 'accessible' and 'affordable' and at what point is something neither?

It seems you've defined 'affordable' as maxing out at $60 since being 're-released in an over-priced collection full of other games I don't want' isn't an acceptable price to you.

Again, playing any particular game is not a human right. If the rightful owners don't want to sell it to you at a price you like, you don't have a right to steal it and hide behind 'accessibility'.
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,248
Piracy allows for a kind of mass scale preservation and availability for old games, so I don't have a major beef in a lot of circumstances.

Preservation is possible without availability, and that's a public good in and of itself, but if it's unavailable then it's a much smaller public good. If the original owner won't or can't make it available legally, it's especially difficult to argue meaningful harm.
 

Gradon

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,515
UK
Nah, sorry. These sites are the closest thing we have to a free public museum accessible to the public (besides the internet archive library) - So in many ways they are preserving the games. The reason the people doing it are sketchy fucks who fill the site with ads and viruses is the failing of the industry to provide classic and culturally impactful games in an accessible and affordable way.
I mean, it's not like when you're buying the game, when it's re-released in an over-priced collection full of other games I don't want, the people who actually made it get anything for it. They don't get dividends or whatever - the publisher just got some easy money because copyright laws are fucked.

Preservation without accessibility is a bullshit elitist idea. The ideal should always be preservation with accessibility, which is why so many countries have free museums or ways to get to museums for free in some way.

This is pretty much how I see it too.

Something I don't understand is: Is the prototype for Glover or for Glover 2?

Yeah the OP was confusing in this regard, what's so different about the prototype that the IP holders wanted pulled if they're re-releasing it on cart with a huge bug fix? Isn't it effectively the full game then?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,431
There's a weird overlap around the release of the Samurai Shodown Perfect rom. Some of the people who had been working for Digital Eclipse at one time or another had been involved with the discovery and distribution of rare prototypes of other games and typically released that kind of stuff in the traditional way.

When Digital Eclipse got access to Samurai Shodown Perfect they were able to agree a release of it through the collection that they were working with SNK on. Amongst some of those same groups where prototypes and rare releases were typically distributed Samsho Perfect was treated as off-limits for an amount of time.

It still got out eventually as it was not a lot of hassle to extract from the retail release, but in that example there was clearly some amount of conflict between enthusiasts who would usually distribute that kind of stuff freely and others who were suddenly working for or working with a rights holder.

I think the point that I come back to is that the commercial interests of a rights holder and the personal interests of enthusiast groups are difficult to reconcile when it comes to the unlicensed distribution of intellectual property, with one of those groups usually having the benefit of the law or money on their side.
 
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Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,735
If dinosaur bones could be easily replicated/cloned/whatever, what would be the problem, exactly? Imagine every school with access to fossils that you can only see in a museum...main difference here is that there's no company owning the intellectual property of dinosaur bones...yet, atleast.

That's the issue at hand, though. ROMs do have legal owners that can shut down and/or sue preservation sites that just let anyone download them, killing the digital museum in the same way that loaning out all your (not clone-able right now) dinosaur bones would kill a physical one (well not the same way, but hopefully my point comes across).
 

Theonik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
852
Copyright legislation as it stands is not only flawed, but demonstrably, actively hurting our society against the spirit behind its inception. The 'stealing' rhetoric misses the point that while the right to property is fundamental, you cannot actually own ideas. Society merely grants you the ability to pretend you do and circumvent the free market for a period of time. In return you accept that this right is given to you in good faith and that society gets that right back after a period of time.

The problem is that the social responsibility currently is not enforced on copyright holders, and the length of copyright has been extended to irrelevance to protect corporations that arguably do not need protecting. (So what if Disney lost Mickey Mouse? MM is a core cultural artefact now and should belong to the public)

Ignoring the complicated part about the length of copyright protection, the intended flow for copyright is for the content to be available to the public eventually, and so I think we should legislate to make it so it is the responsibility of the copyright holder to ensure that is the case. That would largely help resolve the current problem. (I.E. make it so copyright is granted on he grounds of content being "easily accessible" such that content that is not drops from copyright, and make DRM schemes subject to the same)

As it currently stands, "pirates" provide a useful service to society, and hell, even copyright holders often use the services of pirates. (there is many official compilations that use ripped ROMs from the internet as the copyright holder had lost the original files, or using reverse engineered hardware. Hell, Rockstar used NOCD cracks from the internet in their original releases of their old GTA games on Steam)

"Not believing in the system" is a really flimsy justification for defending piracy and feeling like it's OK to pirate games.
No, from a moral perspective, it is a perfectly sound justification. The law is the law but you can choose to agree or disagree with it. There is no inherent morality in legality. The easiest way to demonstrate this is to look at several laws we have abolished and would find uterly indefensible today.
 

White Glint

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,617
Here I am to get my morality cookies, sucking off decrepit copyright laws and the megacorps that benefit from letting their IP and people's hard work likely created under less than ideal work environments rot away.
 

Spark

Member
Dec 6, 2017
2,588
Most of the focus is on big name games, but 99% of software on most systems will never be released or available again. I'm talking about random niche games like Hoverstrike for the Jaguar CD, Fairy Tale Adventure 2 for Windows 95, Blade Force for the 3DO. Without emulation and preservation platforms literally nobody will be able to play those games again.
 
Jun 17, 2018
3,244
There are some games which seem impossible to come by now (No One Lives Forever 1 and 2, Wolfenstein 2009) without piracy. I'm aware that these games can still be purchased physically on ebay but it's impractical. Is there a reason why these games weren't released digitally?

For the record, I haven't pirated these games but it sure is tempting sometimes!
 

dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,703
Tel Aviv
Elitist? So explain what you mean by 'accessible' and 'affordable' and at what point is something neither?

It seems you've defined 'affordable' as maxing out at $60 since being 're-released in an over-priced collection full of other games I don't want' isn't an acceptable price to you.

Again, playing any particular game is not a human right. If the rightful owners don't want to sell it to you at a price you like, you don't have a right to steal it and hide behind 'accessibility'.
Accessible is not a constant objective thing - It means something that can be easily accessed by the public at large. This is something that depends on the game itself, the context and countless other things. For the easiest example I can think of - No one would buy a 60$ pack of Atari 2600 games, while some while for SNES games, and a lot of people will be willing to pay that price for a re-relase of a relatively recent last gen game. So I don't have a clear answer to you what is "affordable" or "accessible".

For the human rights thing - Well, I do think access to culture is a human right, and that we should as a society allow many people, regardless of class, enjoy culture such as theatre, cinema or video games. This should be the ideal, obviously there are countless methods to create access to culture while paying the people who make it. I'm not going to suggest what the practical way to do it, just what my leading ideal here is.

As for the rightful owners - We can't talk about who is the rightful owner of an older work without addressing how fucked up copyright laws are. The people who made the game don't usually enjoy dividends from re-releases of the game, so the owners and the people who enjoy the sales of these re-releases are the ones who won out by how copyright laws are written. So, in many cases pirating old (like, 30+ years old) games are what I'd consider a morally justified disobedience of the law.
All that said, I haven't pirated a game in probably 20 years, I value convenience when I get games - But I don't judge those who choose to download NES roms to play or whatever.
 

TC McQueen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,592
Honestly, piracy becomes preservation on a sliding time scale, usually based on when media stops being legally available at retailers and/or when DRM servers cease functioning. As games get further and further from legal purchase via retailers (whether the original release, a staight up re-release, or a remaster), the more likely that piracy is the only available option for obtaining that media and/or getting it to run on modern systems. Usually it's because there's legal hurdles (licensing and the like), some or all of the companies involved no longer exist, or they simply don't care.

Licensed games are the ones that most often fall into this scenario, but a lot of times, rando game from two or three console generations that never had a PC port and never got a re-release/master is also in the same boat.

Books are also in the same boat, although you do get companies picking up old IPs and bringing them to digital sometimes.
 
Nov 27, 2020
481
United States
as far as I'm concerned, with console games, piracy is the only effective form of preservation. it effectively archives nearly all retro games by leaving the files on many people's computers, something regular archival communities don't have the resources to do by themselves. old consoles and their genuine games won't last forever, and with break down, become lost, and their scarcity will increase over time. this is especially true for more obscure games, but even EARTHBOUND, a beloved classic, would be prohibitatively expensive to play for most people if not for piracy.

the cartridges are something like $200, you need a SNES, and Nintendo has done basically nothing with their rights to the series besides add Ness/Lucas to smash.

the longevity of intellectual property is ridiculous. corporations can sit on properties for years, doing nothing with them except suing anyone who tries to create their own original art using it. how long intellectual property lasts speaks greatly to the "fuck you, got mine" attitude often permeating our culture today. that's extremely stifling to art. imagine if fanfiction was cracked down on as hard as fan games.

back to the main point. I would argue preservation and accessibility are effectively attached to each other. preservation REQUIRES accessibility. imagine if a book like To Kill A Mockingbird had 2000 legal copies in readable condition remaining in the world. as a result, they're in high demand and inaccessible unless you can spend hundreds of dollars. the publisher refuses to print more of it. would you fault people for distributing illegal copies of it?

without accessibility, preservation is pointless. what good does it do anyone if something is "preserved" in the purest sense, just archived on the poorly maintained hard drives of some random corporation, and only accessible through expensive legal copies? it defeats the point.

edit: to be clear I'm not advocating for everyone to go out and pirate, that's risky and can get you punished. I'm advocating against the existence of our awful intellectual property laws themselves. it's kinda like marijuana: you prob shouldn't do it since it's illegal but the punishment for doing it is rather ridiculous and should be gotten rid of.
 
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julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,630
I'm not sure what human rights arguments really are trying for. Copyright is also similarly based on something that's not fundamentally a human right. There is no generally recognized universal, unalienable right to define anything as property, other than perhaps your own self, which tbh would still be a strange framing of the self.
 
Dec 15, 2017
1,590
Gabe Newell, a guy that knows a thing or two about selling videogames once stated that piracy is a service issue.

I fully agree with his views on the matter.
 

JahIthBer

Member
Jan 27, 2018
10,400
Is it really piracy to play a prototype or mess around with beta assets? even Nintendo isn't C&Ding Spaceworld content, who gives a shit.
 

Ckoerner

Member
Aug 7, 2019
792
I'm frustrated by the museum analogy applied to video games. So here's one for thought. :)

Not every painting made ends up in a museum. A majority that do rise to some criteria of inclusion are often not on public display. Museums differ on what they collect and when/how they display items in their collection (and who has access and how).

This analogy falls flat in many ways. Digital items can be reproduced without degrading. The museum floor space is near infinite. Museums can hold rights over reproduction of works.

All this to day is that the profession of archiving is incredibly subjective and contextual. The culture from whence an organization originates, their values, goals, and resources have all played a role in what is preserved from the perspective of cultural heritage. So Big Oof, this is a complicated topic to discuss. Not that we shouldn't!, but the similarities, differences, laws, and multiple subjective lenses make it a challenge to recognize.
 
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Huey

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,333
Gabe Newell, a guy that knows a thing or two about selling videogames once stated that piracy is a service issue.
Yup, this. It's been demonstrated in the music industry fairly convincingly. For older games - and especially on the console side - the problem is that publishers just don't care about the product, which is very different from the music industry.
 

Jedi2016

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,913
I think the museum analogy is quite apt, because just because something is preserved (doesn't matter if it's on display or in the archives, it's safe), doesn't mean anybody can just play it for free. You don't just walk out of a museum with a free copy of a painting, do you?

So where do you draw the line? Is my copy of Silent Hill 2 "preserved" because I own a copy and keep it in good condition? It is "preserved" because I have a system that can play it? (it's even hooked up, I could play it right now!) Or is it only "preserved" when I rip it as a ROM to my PC to play on an emulator? Is it "preserved" sitting on my hard drive, or do I upload it to a cloud backup just in case? Or is it only "preserved" if I put it up for everybody to download?
 

Alexhex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,881
Canada
I'm someone who thinks easy access of art is important to a fairly extreme degree and even I get annoyed when people conflate that with preservation
 

Kanhir

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,899
What I do not think is a great argument despite some fundamental hypocrisy baked into my perspective, is the idea of pirating a game if it's not on a system you want to play it on. If somebody pirates a game because it's on a last generation console and they don't want to hook it back up, that's shitty (and also probably doesn't really happen much). If somebody wants to play a game that was released on a game platform from 35 years ago that sold 10,000 units and the game publisher is defunct and there isn't a clear rights holder...yeah I'm not going to judge somebody for that. I don't know where the line is.
This is why I think PCSX2 is such a stellar example of an emulator. You can put a PS2 disc in your PC and play it directly from there on the emulator. It's much like playing a PS4 game on PS5, you get the game plus modern conveniences like resolution bumping.

I wish other emulators did that, but Nintendo at least has a proprietary disc format, ironically to reduce piracy.

Gabe Newell, a guy that knows a thing or two about selling videogames once stated that piracy is a service issue.

I fully agree with his views on the matter.
100%. It's pretty well known that music piracy took a nosedive when iTunes created an accessible, wide-reaching digital music store. Same for PC gaming when Steam appeared on the scene.

If it was possible to map this to console games and have one centralised location where you could legally buy games from previous-gen or earlier for the emulator of your choice (like an open version of the Wii Virtual Console), I think this would have a major effect on game piracy.

The problem is, of course, that it has to be centralised. You can see with film/TV series that piracy dropped when Netflix came out, then peaked again in the last couple of years when every channel/company decided to have their own streaming service. Fragmentation of service creates just as much piracy as lack of service.
 

Dant21

Member
Apr 24, 2018
842
Nah, sorry. These sites are the closest thing we have to a free public museum accessible to the public (besides the internet archive library) - So in many ways they are preserving the games. The reason the people doing it are sketchy fucks who fill the site with ads and viruses is the failing of the industry to provide classic and culturally impactful games in an accessible and affordable way.
I mean, it's not like when you're buying the game, when it's re-released in an over-priced collection full of other games I don't want, the people who actually made it get anything for it. They don't get dividends or whatever - the publisher just got some easy money because copyright laws are fucked.

Preservation without accessibility is a bullshit elitist idea. The ideal should always be preservation with accessibility, which is why so many countries have free museums or ways to get to museums for free in some way.
No, they've got a point, but the problem here is that the conversation is drawing a single through-line from "preservation and public accessibility" to "random fly-by-night ROM sites". ROM sites should be a dead concept. We have no need of them anymore. Instead, we have real preservation projects like No Intro and Redump posting their collections to the Archive.org, a legitimate institution, with full public access.

So, yeah, I agree that we shouldn't care about random ROM site getting taken down, but we should care an awful lot if a company were to seriously go after archive.org or members of No Intro, Redump, and similar projects.
 
Jul 1, 2020
6,841
I wish more companies would make their older games available on modern platforms. Preservation is extremely important especially the unfinished and unreleased games that have been found over the years. Vice did a pretty good show on preservation efforts that gives a very broad view of the work being done and is available on YouTube.

I wanted to play the PS1 version of Tomb Raider it was doable but I had to bust out the PS3 to do it. I was able to purchase the game but it wasn't as simple as it should be.

The PS3 PlayStation Store experience in 2021 is painful. The purchase buttons aren't visible. You have to load the product page and press X on the invisible "Add to cart" button. The classic games aren't separated out into their own section in the store anymore and you can only find them via search or looking at a list of every game available on the store. If I want to download a game off of my downloads list that has been delisted it takes ages to load because the list has grown in the 13+ years I've had my PSN account.
 

Oneiros

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,957
Preservation is usually a bullshit excuse. Old games being unreasonably expensive or delisted is one thing, but most of the time that isn't the case. People just don't want to pay for them and think they're entitled to every game that hasn't been ported/remastered for new systems.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
Copyright legislation as it stands is not only flawed, but demonstrably, actively hurting our society against the spirit behind its inception. The 'stealing' rhetoric misses the point that while the right to property is fundamental, you cannot actually own ideas. Society merely grants you the ability to pretend you do and circumvent the free market for a period of time. In return you accept that this right is given to you in good faith and that society gets that right back after a period of time.

The problem is that the social responsibility currently is not enforced on copyright holders, and the length of copyright has been extended to irrelevance to protect corporations that arguably do not need protecting. (So what if Disney lost Mickey Mouse? MM is a core cultural artefact now and should belong to the public)

Ignoring the complicated part about the length of copyright protection, the intended flow for copyright is for the content to be available to the public eventually, and so I think we should legislate to make it so it is the responsibility of the copyright holder to ensure that is the case. That would largely help resolve the current problem. (I.E. make it so copyright is granted on he grounds of content being "easily accessible" such that content that is not drops from copyright, and make DRM schemes subject to the same)

As it currently stands, "pirates" provide a useful service to society, and hell, even copyright holders often use the services of pirates. (there is many official compilations that use ripped ROMs from the internet as the copyright holder had lost the original files, or using reverse engineered hardware. Hell, Rockstar used NOCD cracks from the internet in their original releases of their old GTA games on Steam)

I'm not sure how you interpreted the copyright process to be flowed in a particular way, when it's really not perceived in that way with regards to the actual letter of the laws. The entire intent of copyright laws is to offer protection from copying. Works only enter the public domain due to the following scenarios: 1) when copyright expires, 2) production of governmental work, 3) intangible works (think speeches, lectures, etc), 4) insufficient originality, and these are just off of the top of my head. At the same time, the laws are flexible enough such that if a creator wants to enable their work to enter the public domain and remove the copyright that they are granted, they absolutely can. As long as you hold copyright protections, you own the expression of idea. Yes, but there are other levels of protections that can be applied to ideas: patents for example are seen as the strongest protections since you are actually protecting a unique idea that cannot be replicated by anyone else (of course this would surmise a tangible idea). So to say that ideas cannot be owned or protected isn't entirely true.
This is why the Disney example of MM entering the public domain in around 2023 (assuming no lobbying), is ignoring the fact that Disney has something like 19 trademarks on "Mickey Mouse." Furthermore, the other thing people don't realize is that Mickey Mouse is embedded into Disney's identity, gives them the argument that they should be offered protections after 2023. The idea is really only about people's interpretation that Disney should "buy into" the system (after all, they've made works based on fairy tales in the public domain) rather than the actual law itself because the only reason Disney is able to get away with it is because there's no such thing as "buying into" a system.

I think the problem with pirates is that people project preservation as their motivation towards them, when that's not really their endgame. I do agree with the arguments here that there should be a difference between Archive.org vs. generic rom sites, one is a clear archival site while the other one is clearly designed to get people to download ROMs and profit off of doing so with ads.

No, from a moral perspective, it is a perfectly sound justification. The law is the law but you can choose to agree or disagree with it. There is no inherent morality in legality. The easiest way to demonstrate this is to look at several laws we have abolished and would find uterly indefensible today.

This is a dangerous way to frame the morality/legality aspects of law, particularly because the common argument with this logic is: "I disagree with this law, therefore my behaviour is justified." This is not an argument that will hold up in court nor be taken seriously for any given crime or action that you're accused of. So yes, you are free to have this as your belief system, but don't be surprised if consequences still occur irrespective of that belief system.

the longevity of intellectual property is ridiculous. corporations can sit on properties for years, doing nothing with them except suing anyone who tries to create their own original art using it. how long intellectual property lasts speaks greatly to the "fuck you, got mine" attitude often permeating our culture today. that's extremely stifling to art. imagine if fanfiction was cracked down on as hard as fan games.

The problem is that games are commodities as much as they're art, so the conundrum is that the download of something like AM2R is going to interfere with Samus Returns, which is a fair argument to make. Especially if the game in question had problems such as reused assets from established games instead of original sprites (there's still a level of complexity too, the Pokemon fan games stand out as TPCi is known to use everything at their disposal to ensure that their own IP aren't impacted). So to you they might do nothing, but they might be working on plans to either follow with a remake/remaster/sequel/etc sometime down the road. I will concede that this becomes even more problematic if we're talking about games from defunct companies since there's no way that they will ever see re-releases.
Having said that, the problem I have with an argument like this is that what is the alternative? If I/a corporation own a series of IPs that I have plans for in the future, then why would it not be within my/their rights to hold onto them?