• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Kaguya

Member
Jun 19, 2018
6,408
Love this, if you believe it's honest or just marketing fluff, both can only lead to good things, better awareness and more focus on performance.


Can I just say that that whole interview is fucking weird, and he was actually kinda goaded into saying that


The interviewer said almost right before then that he isn't technical and just wants the graphics to look good and that's it.. Then flips the script to framerate after inferring heavily that he didn't care about that stuff. That's why Phil said "why do you care about 60fps??"
Does that really sound more reasonable of a justification for you than him pushing for framerate now because of the marketing direction they're taking?
 

ToadPacShakur

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,449
Love this, if you believe it's honest or just marketing fluff, both can only lead to good things, better awareness and more focus on performance.



Does that really sound more reasonable of a justification for you than him pushing for framerate now because of the marketing direction they're taking?

No I just..that interview is odd to read through lol

Plus there is already proof he was saying frame rate is more important back in 2014. Now it seems Xbox and PS5 will have the hardware to FINALLY get to 60+ on everything
 

Yan

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,487
All else being equal, optimizing a game to run at 60 will require more development resources than optimizing a game to run at 30. (Of course all else is not equal, usually.) Even getting a game to run at 30 costs resources--look at the situation with Control and their struggles to get the game running well. It's not just a design choice, unless you think Control had performance issues because of artistic vision or something.

What use would sales charts have to prove the answer to this question? You'd need a randomized controlled trial. Show a game that's identical in every way, except framerate, and gauge the response. I think a F2P mobile dev could pull this study off, if they wanted to.

But if you develop for 60 fps, you wouldn't make all things equal compared to 30 fps. That's the point. Does a 60fps game take longer to develop than a 30 fps game? It doesn't appear so.
Considering you began about Insomniac, the first R&C games where 60 fps, the last was their best selling, it was 30 fps. Spiderman is Sony's best selling game, also from Insomniac, 30fps.
Again, you don't have proof that 30 fps games sell less.
 
Nov 20, 2019
1,861
All else being equal, optimizing a game to run at 60 will require more development resources than optimizing a game to run at 30. (Of course all else is not equal, usually.) Even getting a game to run at 30 costs resources--look at the situation with Control and their struggles to get the game running well. It's not just a design choice, unless you think Control had performance issues because of artistic vision or something.

What use would sales charts have to prove the answer to this question? You'd need a randomized controlled trial. Show a game that's identical in every way, except framerate, and gauge the response. I think a F2P mobile dev could pull this study off, if they wanted to.
Lol control wasnt optimized (i think) and weak base consoles.
 

Chairman Yang

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,587
But if you develop for 60 fps, you wouldn't make all things equal compared to 30 fps. That's the point. Does a 60fps game take longer to develop than a 30 fps game? It doesn't appear so.
Considering you began about Insomniac, the first R&C games where 60 fps, the last was their best selling, it was 30 fps. Spiderman is Sony's best selling game, also from Insomniac, 30fps.
Again, you don't have proof that 30 fps games sell less.
Your argument wasn't initially that the better graphics allowed by 30 FPS outweighs 60 FPS. It was literally that 60 FPS has no sales impact.

You can't list random series as evidence. They could have sold more (or less) for any number of reasons. I can list a bunch of series that sold better when they were 60 FPS (Mario Kart Wii and 8/8 DX were the best-selling entries, Odyssey is the best-selling 3d Mario, Yakuza 0 is the highest-selling in the series in the West, the 60 FPS Call of Duties outsold the old 30 FPS versions, etc). That's a bad way of determining if 60 FPS helps sales or not.

In your opinion, why are some top companies targeting 60 FPS? Why don't they just meet a 30 FPS target with the same graphics and call it a day?
 

Yan

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,487
Your argument wasn't initially that the better graphics allowed by 30 FPS outweighs 60 FPS. It was literally that 60 FPS has no sales impact.

You can't list random series as evidence. They could have sold more (or less) for any number of reasons. I can list a bunch of series that sold better when they were 60 FPS (Mario Kart Wii and 8/8 DX were the best-selling entries, Odyssey is the best-selling 3d Mario, Yakuza 0 is the highest-selling in the series in the West, the 60 FPS Call of Duties outsold the old 30 FPS versions, etc). That's a bad way of determining if 60 FPS helps sales or not.

In your opinion, why are some top companies targeting 60 FPS? Why don't they just meet a 30 FPS target with the same graphics and call it a day?

Because the developers want to make them that way? Do you think the publisher forces them to make 60fps? I think most of the time it's up to what the vision is of the developer.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Forza Horizon, Gears, and Halo have already made the transition to 60fps. Open your eyes.

Not quite the same scenario as they're only 60fps in all modes on a considerably more powerful and premium priced late gen refresh system.

What remains to be seen is if Microsoft's eventual tentpole next gen exclusives remain 60fps. No doubt the cross gen ones will be, at least on the Series X anyway (due to scaling from the Xbox One and One X).

Lest we forget Phil Spencer himself had this to say about frame rates just a couple of years ago.

Xbox Head Phil Spencer Says Most People Don't Care About 60FPS
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,020
All else being equal, optimizing a game to run at 60 will require more development resources than optimizing a game to run at 30.
I would argue that the focus on fidelity above all else in a 30 FPS game is likely to make it more expensive than developing for 60 FPS.

30 fps isn't lag lol.
The comment being responded to was: "60fps made everything seem too light and weightless."
That's a comment about input lag, whether they are aware of it or not.
It's very easy to add latency to high frame rate content if you somehow think that makes it feel better; more "weighty" or "grounded" etc.

I feel that 30fps fit some games better imo.
No game is improved by lowering the frame rate. Higher frame rates are always better.

Not into it at all, particularly taken in context with their focus on ecosystems. A proper 30 is fine and I want my next-gen games to actually look the part.
Targeting higher frame rates is the most "next-gen" looking thing you could do.
The jump from 30 FPS to 120 would blow minds far more than a little bit more resolution.
 

Dezzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,435
USA
I feel that 30fps fit some games better imo.
30 fps is never better. I'm not sure how a choppier motion would ever fit a game better than smooth motion. Higher frame rates add motion clarity and faster input response. There are no losses, only gains.

There are games that don't suffer as much from 30 fps, but that doesn't mean 60+ isn't better.
 

squidyj

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,670
I would argue that the focus on fidelity above all else in a 30 FPS game is likely to make it more expensive than developing for 60 FPS.


The comment being responded to was: "60fps made everything seem too light and weightless."
That's a comment about input lag, whether they are aware of it or not.
It's very easy to add latency to high frame rate content if you somehow think that makes it feel better; more "weighty" or "grounded" etc.


No game is improved by lowering the frame rate. Higher frame rates are always better.


Targeting higher frame rates is the most "next-gen" looking thing you could do.
The jump from 30 FPS to 120 would blow minds far more than a little bit more resolution.



Much rather have enhanced visual effects. I've played on PC at framerates from 120 down to 15 and I never found high framerate to be a super important thing. High frame rates is not something that would sell me on next-gen. at all. Higher framerates might be 'better' than lower framerates but they always come at a cost when you're talking about a fixed hardware platform and it's genuinely not a cost I have any interest in paying for. I see 60fps titles in a lot of genres on console and I think "what could this have looked like at 30fps?". It happens every time.
 

AtomicShroom

Tools & Automation
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
3,079
Gotta root for Phil on that one! Give me them buttery smooth framerates over top graphics any day of the week!
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
Not quite the same scenario as they're only 60fps in all modes on a considerably more powerful and premium priced late gen refresh system.

What remains to be seen is if Microsoft's eventual next gen exclusives remain 60fps. No doubt the cross gen ones will be, at least on the Series X anyway (due to scaling from the Xbox One and One X).
Halo MCC and Halo 5 are 60fps on Xbox One. Yes you're right about the others but it's also showing the direction XGS is going especially with a massively improved CPU in next gen.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
Some games can get away with 30 fps though, but yes all games are better at 60 or higher.
I think most games could get away with 30fps especially if they are a solid 30 but every game will benefit from higher frame rates. I found it amusing Naughty Dog said how much better The Last of Us Remaster was at 60 and now they go back to 30 for the sequel, all because they are pushing the graphics over frame rates once again. Maybe on the PS5 it will be playable at 60fps.

\
Halo MCC and Halo 5 are 60fps on Xbox One. Yes you're right about the others but it's also showing the direction XGS is going especially with a massively improved CPU in next gen.

This is eactly why the Xbox One X was a bit limited because of the CPU. It was still too early at the time to get a much improved CPU from AMD like we will see in next gen consoles.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
30 fps is never better. I'm not sure how a choppier motion would ever fit a game better than smooth motion. Higher frame rates add motion clarity and faster input response. There are no losses, only gains.

There are games that don't suffer as much from 30 fps, but that doesn't mean 60+ isn't better.

These sorts of discussions can be frustrating because of arguments like yours that are completely devoid of context and nuance.

60fps is twice as resource taxing as 30fps. There is never a like for like comparison with console games in 30fps vs 60fps, so you can't say there is no loss in choosing 60fps vs 30fps, infact, it would be factually dishonest to suggest as much.

There could actually be notable losses for when console games choose 60fps over 30fps, the halved performance potential could lead to a negative impact on any number of things, be that reduced graphical fidelity, game world size or scope, asset quality or detail, complexity of physics, number of NPC's, resolution, image quality (eg anti-aliasing), the amount or density of foliage and environmental objects or structures, draw distance, quality of lighting and shadows and so on and so forth.

It is never a like for like scenario on consoles. There is always a cost when console games choose 30fps over 60fps, especially if they're designed from the ground up for one or the other, thus potentially having an entirely different ceiling with respect to design scope.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
Not quite the same scenario as they're only 60fps in all modes on a considerably more powerful and premium priced late gen refresh system.

What remains to be seen is if Microsoft's eventual tentpole next gen exclusives remain 60fps. No doubt the cross gen ones will be, at least on the Series X anyway (due to scaling from the Xbox One and One X).

Lest we forget Phil Spencer himself had this to say about frame rates just a couple of years ago.

Xbox Head Phil Spencer Says Most People Don't Care About 60FPS
Yes, he said he loves frame rates back then too,

PS: Don't get me wrong. I love frame rate. I love Ori, it's one of the reasons I love playing Forza Motorsport. But you have to go back to what you said before: most people. What frame rate does Minecraft run at?

The hardware is now able to do higher frame rates easier thanks to the better CPU but the problem is many people are like you who prefer graphics and that is why many developers favor that. They know it's easier to market. I feel like we are at a crossroads now where PC gaming is being much more impactful of console design and game development. Especially where Xbox and Microsoft are concerned.

This is the beauty for me and Microsoft's approach is they also develop for the PC. So either way I will be getting my games at higher frame rates regardless.

These sorts of discussions can be frustrating because of arguments like yours that are completely devoid of context and nuance.

60fps is twice as resource taxing as 30fps. There is never a like for like comparison with console games in 30fps vs 60fps, so you can't say there is no loss in choosing 60fps vs 30fps, infact, it would be factually dishonest to suggest as much.

There could actually be notable losses for when console games choose 60fps over 30fps, the halved performance potential could lead to a negative impact on any number of things, be that reduced graphical fidelity, game world size or scope, asset quality or detail, complexity of physics, number of NPC's, resolution, image quality (eg anti-aliasing), the amount or density of foliage and environmental objects or structures, draw distance, quality of lighting and shadows and so on and so forth.

It is never a like for like scenario on consoles. There is always a cost when console games choose 30fps over 60fps, especially if they're designed from the ground up for one or the other, thus potentially having an entirely different ceiling with respect to design scope.
Well you just answered your own concerns, Death Stranding is coming to PC and won't be locked to 30fps. Maybe this is the solution, port everything later to the PC. That way the original design is still intact.
 

ToadPacShakur

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,449
Not quite the same scenario as they're only 60fps in all modes on a considerably more powerful and premium priced late gen refresh system.

What remains to be seen is if Microsoft's eventual tentpole next gen exclusives remain 60fps. No doubt the cross gen ones will be, at least on the Series X anyway (due to scaling from the Xbox One and One X).

Lest we forget Phil Spencer himself had this to say about frame rates just a couple of years ago.

Xbox Head Phil Spencer Says Most People Don't Care About 60FPS

maxresdefault.jpg


He did not say that lol let's go to the interview in question

GC: Those are very good examples. But on a different point, and this goes for both PS4 Pro and Xbox One X… I think you might have gathered from before that I'm not very technical. I want the graphics to be good and that's the end of my interest in the conversation. I'm sure you've seen the beetle picture used to illustrate the improved graphics on Xbox One X?

PS: Yep.

The interviewer told Phil here that he just wants good-looking graphics, that's the beginning and end of his list. Graphics

So now with that context, let's go back to the "damning" part that y'all are latching on to

GC: What also frustrates me is that the only number I do care about is the only that you and Sony don't obsess over. Which is 60fps, which I understand is easier to do on the Xbox One X than any other console.

PS: That's correct. But… [laughs] Why do you care about 60fps?

GC: It's the only number that affects gameplay and yet it's the only one you two never go on about! No-one can tell the difference between 4K and 1080p and all that nonsense…

PS: You just broke your whole argument now!

the interviewer went from just caring about graphics to now caring about frame rate. That's why Phil asked the reporter specifically why he cared. I couldn't find anywhere in the interview where he said most people don't care about frame rate.

You can MAYBE make the claim with this section

PS: Don't get me wrong. I love frame rate. I love Ori, it's one of the reasons I love playing Forza Motorsport. But you have to go back to what you said before: most people. What frame rate does Minecraft run at?

GC: I know, but if the frame rate is below what it needs to be – and it does vary for different games – they do notice. They might not identify the problem, but they know something's wrong.

PS: Some people do. Some people just want to have fun playing Lego Batman

He's just saying there's some people who are fine with/don't notice/don't care about the 30fps/60fps debate.
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
maxresdefault.jpg


He did not say that lol let's go to the interview in question



The interviewer told Phil here that he just wants good-looking graphics, that's the beginning and end of his list. Graphics

So now with that context, let's go back to the "damning" part that y'all are latching on to



the interviewer went from just caring about graphics to now caring about frame rate. That's why Phil asked the reporter specifically why he cared. I couldn't find anywhere in the interview where he said most people don't care about frame rate.

You can MAYBE make the claim with this section



He's just saying there's some people who are fine with/don't notice/don't care about the 30fps/60fps debate.
Defendant not guilty. Case closed. LOL
 

ToadPacShakur

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,449

And it's a true statement, there are people there that don't care about higher frame rates.. the issue I have with the article headline is that it tries to paint Phil as saying "yea most people don't care so it's not a priority". Which is why you were like "oh, he flip flops" when in reality all he was saying is that there are people who could give a shit less.
 

Deleted member 8468

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
9,109
Great to hear, and I hope we see this manifest in first party titles. As someone who has primarily switched to PC, knowing most everything is at least a solid 60fps might entice me to buy a console down the line when it's a bit cheaper.
 

Godzilla24

Member
Nov 12, 2017
3,371
Not quite the same scenario as they're only 60fps in all modes on a considerably more powerful and premium priced late gen refresh system.

What remains to be seen is if Microsoft's eventual tentpole next gen exclusives remain 60fps. No doubt the cross gen ones will be, at least on the Series X anyway (due to scaling from the Xbox One and One X).

Lest we forget Phil Spencer himself had this to say about frame rates just a couple of years ago.

Xbox Head Phil Spencer Says Most People Don't Care About 60FPS
Please read the article again. You don't seem to be confused.