• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

DopeyFish

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,788
But the idea is to have a constant revenue stream. That's the point. Build up a large consistent revenue stream which allows more risks to be taken on projects.

People won't stay subbed without variety.

People don't understand scale all that well. 1 subscribers is equal to 2 games sold per year.

For the service... if you were to do 8 AAA, 16 AA and 16 Indie games per year... all you'd need to support that is... about 8 million subscribers.

The numbers just get even nuttier from there.
 

Zalman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,896
He's essentially promoting short sightedness. As gamers, whilst we will of course seek to get great deals (Game Pass is a steal and I very much enjoy the service) it isn't exactly a bad thing to think about these things or the long term impacts, since less money or revenue as a result of services like this in the long run (not short term whilst publishers are eating losses for quicker growth), could have other ramifications to the kinds of games and services we get in future.

As an example, look at mobile gaming and the extent of nickel and dime microtransactions that have become rampant, justified due to the lower buy in price. Whilst I'm not suggesting this sort of thing will happen with console gaming as a result of subscription based gaming, more microtransactions, lower quality titles, worse quality control etc, are potential possibilities if revenue greatly dwindles.
100% agree. It's a valid concern.
 

Papacheeks

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,620
Watertown, NY
Quite a few posters keep saying how can MS sustain GP and thier games. Quite a few people believe thier first party games will suffer from exploit gross monetisation. The newest trend is that now MS 1sr part games like Gears/Halo don't sell significantly so GP is the only route. Phil is setting the story straight.

You know how you set the story straight? Actually show sales data for games, hardware.
 
Jun 23, 2019
6,446
Who is mad? Just saying that people are spewing straight up ignorance based on some kind of "look at how cool I am blaming a big publisher for the downfall of gaming" without any argument of substance? Based solely on some feeling off the top of your head? It's like wearing snow boots in July in Texas because of some freak snowstorm from 100 years ago that someone 's uncle's cousin's friend wrote about that you heard about on the internet. Your argument is pure paranoia with no support from anyone even remotely associated with creating and selling videogames.

Yikes. Trying to discuss the possibility of devs looking at their own revenue stream and comparing it to what they would make not having their game on the service isn't "fearmongering" especially if you are a small indie developer or someone breaking into the industry. It's the reason we have devs dropping their games to pennies on Nintendo's eShop. Yeah, you get tons of more sales, but how is that affecting your bottom line and the ability to create more in the future? In any case, I'm going to leave the conversation at that because hostile comments like these are derailing the thread.
 

Shpeshal Nick

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,856
Melbourne, Australia
People don't understand scale all that well. 1 subscribers is equal to 2 games sold per year.

For the service... if you were to do 8 AAA, 16 AA and 16 Indie games per year... all you'd need to support that is... about 8 million subscribers.

The numbers just get even nuttier from there.

but they don't even need that many games per year. Especially with third parties filling the gaps.

They only need 2-4 AAA per year alongside the other stuff. My guess is that their foundational target is 10 million paying subscribers
 

OG_Thrills

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,655
In many ways I think he's just highlighted the issue and as a result gamers will scrutinize that side of things even more.
 

Jiraiya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,279
How can one claim this is short sighted without knowing the long term plans or financials?
 

MattHeus

Member
Mar 2, 2019
449
I can assure you that "we will spend lots of money and remain in third place" was NOT the plan that Phil sold the execs to keep the doors open

I don't think investors care about being first place, at least not in the that the fans think... You can be the business with the best return on investment without being the market leader.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,296
new jersey
phil, what do you know? just because youre the head of the entire xbox department doesn't mean you're not a businessman. listen to me, a random person on the internet who knows more about your business than you.
 

Romez

Member
Nov 11, 2017
348
It's a lot of fanboy bullshit by those who don't have xbox. The financial part is how they justify the trolling.

We're starting to see more and more people break and I think depending on how Sony's next gen reveal goes well see a lot of people questioning their purchase decision.

Doubt it.

As long as Playstation continue to make games people want to play like God of War, The Last of Us, Horizon, Spider-Man, Uncharted etc I don't think think anyone will give a shit.
 

NutterB

Member
Oct 27, 2017
388
The moment it starts to impact the amount of games you see from Xbox game Studios, then by all means "worry".
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,214
I don't think investors care about being first place, at least not in the that the fans think... You can be the business with the best return on investment without being the market leader.

That's not how corporations work. MS execs see how much money Sony and Nintendo are making in gaming and they want that. Xbox is spending a TON of money buying GP titles and new studios.
 

mxbison

Banned
Jan 14, 2019
2,148
Who is mad? Just saying that people are spewing straight up ignorance based on some kind of "look at how cool I am blaming a big publisher for the downfall of gaming" without any argument of substance? Based solely on some feeling off the top of your head? It's like wearing snow boots in July in Texas because of some freak snowstorm from 100 years ago that someone 's uncle's cousin's friend wrote about that you heard about on the internet. Your argument is pure paranoia with no support from anyone even remotely associated with creating and selling videogames.

Where did I blame anyone for anything? I said I have some concerns, nothing wrong with that.

And yes, you are clearly very upset because others don't share your opinion.
 

prodyg

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,198
I LOVE this! Unless you are a shareholder or an employee, go worry about the quality and quantity of games. Who gives a crap how much these companies are making/losing? that has little to no effect on me.
 

Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,626
Phil says a lot of things. I just wonder why we never get any numbers from Microsoft if their Xbox business is already so successful.
Literally because of threads like this. For all the talk about how "greedy" stockholders are, it's actually places like this that take any news besides MS being #1 in some area of the business as being doom and gloom.
Yikes. Trying to discuss the possibility of devs looking at their own revenue stream and comparing it to what they would make not having their game on the service isn't "fearmongering" especially if you are a small indie developer or someone breaking into the industry. It's the reason we have devs dropping their games to pennies on Nintendo's eShop. Yeah, you get tons of more sales, but how is that affecting your bottom line and the ability to create more in the future? In any case, I'm going to leave the conversation at that because hostile comments like these are derailing the thread.
Hostile in what way? Because name one dev that has said anything like that? And now we are talking about sales on the eshop? You have nothing backing up any of this. Products go on sale all the time. And as I said, there is no history of a subscription service causing any industry to eliminate direct sales. You using the "small indies" line in the paranoia I have been talking about.

Don't act like someone is being hostile because you are called out for basically making up stuff and implying that everyone that disagrees with you is lying.

It's an incredible weak thing that people on the internet do when they say something with no substance but all emotion, based on hearsay with no logic of any kind... but then when someone responds with direct evidence and direct questions that they can't refute, it's "why are you being so mean/angry?"...stop acting like someone can't strongly disagree with you because you are on some great crusade to defend the future of gaming from GamePass.
 
Last edited:

professor_t

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,335
It's an amazing phenomenon. If MS makes a move that is clearly designed to improve their bottom line, they're labeled as "anti-consumer."

If they offer something that clearly appears to be a great value proposition for consumers, suddenly people are wringing their hands about whether it's good for Microsoft's financials.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,510
He mentions in the article about why he thinks single player games that aren't being made anymore are perfect for the service. Very good read

Proof will be in the pudding, ultimately. Phil Spencer has always talked a good game and to be fair they are delivering more than they have in the past, but until Microsoft actually deliver the top quality single player games (you know, the thing Sony and Nintendo do multiple times over a generation) it feels a bit flat. Why does Microsoft need Game Pass to achieve what Sony and Nintendo do anyway?
 

Voke

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,336
He's exactly right lol. Gamepass is a STEAL and as consumers in this industry we shouldn't give a fuck from robbing a multimillion dollar company. I mostly think the concern over this in particular comes from how subscription service usually start off a great deal, but over time as popularity grows, the services offerings start to stagnate. Who knows what's happens toGP a few years, but as of now it's a incredible deal.
 
Jun 23, 2019
6,446
Literally because of threads like this. For all the talk about how "greedy" stockholders are, it's actually places like this that take any news besides MS being #1 in some area of the business as being doom and gloom.

Hostile in what way? Because name one dev that has said anything like that? And now we are talking about sales on the eshop? You have nothing backing up any of this. Products go on sale all the time. And as I said, there is no history of a subscription any causing any industry to eliminate direct sales. You using the "small indies" line in the paranoia I have been talking about.

Don't act like someone is being hostile because you are called out for basically making up stuff and implying that everyone that disagrees with you is lying.

Making up stuff? Yeah, I'm done talking to you.
 

Remeran

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,893
Proof will be in the pudding, ultimately. Phil Spencer has always talked a good game and to be fair they are delivering more than they have in the past, but until Microsoft actually deliver the top quality single player games (you know, the thing Sony and Nintendo do multiple times over a generation) it feels a bit flat. Why does Microsoft need Game Pass to achieve what Sony and Nintendo do anyway?
That's true enough, I just think that people who say "Nothing" has been done by microsoft that signals a shift are crazy.
 

Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,626
Making up stuff? Yeah, I'm done talking to you.
So you can't name a dev that has said that...because there is none. Literally one company expressed a concern, a publisher that had no involvement with GamePass to know anything more than you do...and then weeks later, committed to putting two of their games on the service. Have a nice day!

Where did I blame anyone for anything? I said I have some concerns, nothing wrong with that.

And yes, you are clearly very upset because others don't share your opinion.
Concerns about devs based on what? From comments or discussion from who? Then you say you don't need any evidence. It's professional concern trolling. As long as GamePass has been out, and the hundreds of A/AA/AAA devs with games on there...not a peep. And not to mention devs giving games away for free on Epic and Twitch...it's almost like they are getting money from these services.
 
Last edited:

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
People don't understand scale all that well. 1 subscribers is equal to 2 games sold per year.

For the service... if you were to do 8 AAA, 16 AA and 16 Indie games per year... all you'd need to support that is... about 8 million subscribers.

The numbers just get even nuttier from there.

This is improperly calculated, since not everyone who is a subscriber is going to be a long term subscriber (some may sub for a single month every several months, just to bulk play a selection of tentpole titles), and nor is everyone who is subscribed going to have paid close to full price. Also, don't forget that subscription revenue has to cover the cost of hundreds of different titles, not just one or two, so that revenue splits far thinner than a typical $60 purchase.

I have nearly 2 years worth of Game Pass Ultimate and I paid maybe £60 for it. My £60 therefore has to theoretically cover the cost of hundreds of different titles on the service for almost 2 whole years.
 

MattHeus

Member
Mar 2, 2019
449
That's not how corporations work. MS execs see how much money Sony and Nintendo are making in gaming and they want that. Xbox is spending a TON of money buying GP titles and new studios.

That's exactly how investments work, you can be the market leader and still bleed money. The ROI is usually the most important metric when choosing investments.

Bigger revenue and bigger profit percentage aren't always together.
 

Pasha

Banned
Jan 27, 2018
3,018
Man when concern trolling gets so bad that even the head of Xbox has to tell people to STFU already.......
 

bane833

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
4,530
Why do you doubt it though? He says in the article that they are using some of the money to further fund 1st party which to me sounds like operating costs are covered?
Because they need to spend a lot of money to get the service off the ground (game development, third party deals etc.). And so far Gamepass has been dirt cheap on several occasions. They're not getting anywhere close to 10 bucks per subscriber at the moment.
 

DopeyFish

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,788
User Warned: Hostility
I very much doubt that.

my guess has them at 3-4 million at best.

didn't 3 million people download sea of thieves through game pass and that was when that game launched

that was how many years ago?

This is improperly calculated, since not everyone who is a subscriber is going to be a long term subscriber (some may sub for a single month every several months, just to bulk play a selection of tentpole titles), and nor is everyone who is subscribed going to have paid close to full price. Also, don't forget that subscription revenue has to cover the cost of hundreds of different titles, not just one or two, so that revenue splits far thinner than a typical $60 purchase.

I have nearly 2 years worth of Game Pass Ultimate and I paid maybe £60 for it.

can you concern troll harder?
 

dom

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,445
People don't understand scale all that well. 1 subscribers is equal to 2 games sold per year.

For the service... if you were to do 8 AAA, 16 AA and 16 Indie games per year... all you'd need to support that is... about 8 million subscribers.

The numbers just get even nuttier from there.
If you're saying that Microsoft would be releasing all those games a year, your numbers are so off it's kinda sad. Unless you think 2 million copies sold for the AAA games is "good." It goes even less once you have to divide the money earned between AA and indie.
 

Santar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,979
Norway
People really need to stop taking everything Phil says at face value.
His job is to make xbox look good and to spin things so they sound the most positive. You need to stop thinking he's being completely honest and doing what's best for the consumer at every turn. It's his job to make you think that.
Just because people have concerns about what a service like gamepass can mean for the industry in the future does not make them a anti xbox fanboy or something.

The reason gamepass was created in the first place was because they no longer had sales numbers to brag about and had to create something else they could brag about while being very vague.

Disregard the last paragraph. It was incredibly stupid and not thought out at all by me.
Of course a corporation like Microsoft wouldn't create a huge incentive like Gamepass just to have something to talk positively about.
 
Last edited:

Jiraiya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,279
People really need to stop taking everything Phil says at face value.
His job is to make xbox look good and to spin things so they sound the most positive. You need to stop thinking he's being completely honest and doing what's best for the consumer at every turn. It's his job to make you think that.
Just because people have concerns about what a service like gamepass can mean for the industry in the future does not make them a anti xbox fanboy or something.

The reason gamepass was created in the first place was because they no longer had sales numbers to brag about and had to create something else they could brag about while being very vague.

No sarcasm or anything? Straight face?
 

Remeran

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,893
Because they need to spend a lot of money to get the service off the ground (game development, third party deals etc.). And so far Gamepass has been dirt cheap on several occasions. They're not getting anywhere close to 10 bucks per subscriber at the moment.
We live in a bubble friend who really knows how many people took advantage of those deals. Certainly everyone I know but my circle is hard core gamers. I could literally say with all the buzz gamepass is getting its gotta have 10mil subs, 1 mil subs, making money, not making money but it means absolutely nothing because we have no proof other than what MS and devs who put their games on gamepass say (both of which say its great). Of course Phil is going to shout some PR speak anyone in his shoes would but instead of outright lying saying they are making money and using it to invest why not just dodge the question?
 

rebelcrusader

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,833
People really need to stop taking everything Phil says at face value.
His job is to make xbox look good and to spin things so they sound the most positive. You need to stop thinking he's being completely honest and doing what's best for the consumer at every turn. It's his job to make you think that.
Just because people have concerns about what a service like gamepass can mean for the industry in the future does not make them a anti xbox fanboy or something.

The reason gamepass was created in the first place was because they no longer had sales numbers to brag about and had to create something else they could brag about while being very vague.
This is an embarrassing post

" does not make them a anti xbox fanboy"

And then

"The reason gamepass was created in the first place was because they no longer had sales numbers to brag about and had to create something else they could brag about while being very vague."
 

Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,626
The reason gamepass was created in the first place was because they no longer had sales numbers to brag about and had to create something else they could brag about while being very vague.

giphy.gif
 

DopeyFish

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,788
If you're saying that Microsoft would be releasing all those games a year, your numbers are so off it's kinda sad. Unless you think 2 million copies sold for the AAA games is "good." It goes even less once you have to divide the money earned between AA and indie.

you're not understanding

Games won't be developed for pure profit. it will be for healthy margin. upside is your company is safe from falling apart and can grow over time! downside is if your game is a huge hit then you don't reap the big benefits from the service but from the sales off the service.
and when taking the indies into account and the AA it's more like 3-3.5 million in sales for the AAA and then the remaining $100 million is across the 2 AA and Indie.

And it would be project starts per month on average.



Applying logic and rationale = concern trolling. Got it. Lol.

THERE IS ZERO LOGIC OR ANY RATIONAL THINKING IN YOUR POSTS
STOP

You are bringing absolutely nothing to the conversation
 

pswii60

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,667
The Milky Way
I'm more interested to hear what he'd say to those developers who are worried about how these models might impact their business. (And I think that's what 'gamers' who voice these concerns are worried about - not about Xbox's P+L).

I mean, I'm not necessarily one of those people - but it's a bit wrong to say those who have voiced concerns are simply worrying about Xbox's bottom line, and therefore shouldn't.
He doesn't say that though, you're putting words in his mouth and taking them out of context.

Everything he stated there was purely concerning the (often fanboy) comments regarding how things will affect Xbox - he's not even specifically talking about Game Pass, he mentions multiplatform support (eg PC ports, Ori) and cross play. He isn't talking about those who are discussing wider industry issues.
 

SublimeAnarky

Member
Oct 27, 2017
811
Copenhagen, Denmark
This thread is a ride.

Hi, I'm a consumer of video games. I play a lot of them and I'm always looking at the best bang for my buck.

Game pass does that for me. The fact that I get to play a wide breadth of content on it makes it even better. If it didn't, I wouldn't have subbed to it.

Tomorrow if Microsoft decides that they need to kill it with fire, I would have already exacted more gaming value than my investment in it in terms of my outlay per game played/tried - and I'd be fine with that. I'd look for the next opportunity to play my games at the lowest cost/highest convenience with the best experience.

I game for me. Not for devs, not for platform holders. I may support some devs out of my traditional cycle of behaviour for matters of principle, but my money is my own and I will choose how I spend it - to give me the gaming satisfaction I seek.

Folks that want to wax on about the holes in the cheese rather than enjoy it - can continue to do so. Not my place to show them what I think they miss either.. They're apparently smart enough to see more than my primitive need based existence.

Happy gaming Era.
 

bcatwilly

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,483
LOL, Phil bringing the wood to console warriors and concern trolls. The bottom line is that Xbox Game Pass is absolutely insane and awesome, so jump on board and have fun as the freaking consumer that doesn't likely make millions of dollars a year. Let the good times roll into next generation in 2020!
 

MattHeus

Member
Mar 2, 2019
449
The reason gamepass was created in the first place was because they no longer had sales numbers to brag about and had to create something else they could brag about while being very vague.

Do people really think that those giant corporations care about internet console wars? They only care about making money, GamePass was created because Microsoft saw an oportunity to make money.
 

12Danny123

Member
Jan 31, 2018
1,722
It's pretty obvious that a lot of the people who are Concern trolls are console warriors knowing that Microsoft is potentially disrupting the status quo (traditional gaming) and knowing that Sony and Nintendo cannot compete in the same fashion.

It's all stems from the fact that Microsoft can absorb the losses and still be profitable as a whole but if Sony and Nintendo went the same route, they will not able to absorb the losses. For those concern trolls concerned about devs, they are already being paid by Microsoft to appear on Game Pass.

If a company or developer becomes bankrupt it's not Microsoft's fault they did so. It's because they couldn't adapt to the market.
 

Papacheeks

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,620
Watertown, NY
I LOVE this! Unless you are a shareholder or an employee, go worry about the quality and quantity of games. Who gives a crap how much these companies are making/losing? that has little to no effect on me.

But that impacts quality and quantity. And right now with the deals they make for third party games, which come later on the service from their launch is totally fine. I think the issue is currently their first party. And looking at the past year or so, their best release is gears 5 and hopefully ori.

ANd gears 5 was not met with it being so bold of a new experience like they were kind of hyping it up to be.
 

Black Duke

Member
Dec 2, 2017
151
For me this is still a honeymoon period for GamePass. Sure, they are investing in it very much, but the only way I think this could work out over a long period of time is for the games to be build with GP in mind from the beginning.