Phil Spencer: “The only concern I see from consumers about Game Pass is is it sustainable...Game Pass is doing very well for us and developers”

[Evolution of Metal]

So why isn't this a problem with EA/Origin Access? I never see any concern about it devaluing EA games.

Click to shrink...

EA Premier is the 15/month service with like 4 titles per year. That is a lot of money to rent anthem, fifa, nfs and jedi this year.

Either they are greedy, or their strategy does not see how including all games on day 1 on the Basic service is a viable one.

Plus nobody on the forum is presenting ea access as the future of gaming, even if they already have 3m+ subs.

edit: You could have a fairly interesting discussion should you be able to weight the EA Access/GP/Uplay+/PSnow services in terms of their value and popularity.
• Uplay+ is crap for the titles they have so far, especially without the cheap tier and delays on their games
• I like EA's Basic and Premier model, but I think they need to somehow make them cross-platform and make sure that Dice/Bioware isn't outputting trash
• Sony could use a premium tier similar to Origin Premier when next-gen starts
• I don't think Nintendo should ever have their new games (and up to two years old) titles in the renting service because they are still selling Zelda and Mario for full prices years after launch.
• I don't see a need for Activision to have the sub service yet. They have massive sales and low software output. Perhaps returning/rebranding COD Elite? service to give access to all COD games + DLC would make sense.

 

[Deleted member 56752]

I feel so bad for just renting a game like gears 5 and outer worlds

 

[Decarb]

That's such a strange attitude tho. Like, you helped fund a game's development. Isn't that where the value of (a somewhat paltry) $40 comes into play?

I certainly hope this mindset of devaluing games -especially indies - doesn't take hold more than it has already though. Certainly don't think game pass alone is the factor there, but it's part of the overall industry-wide trend.

Click to shrink...

No it doesn't, not when the game shows up on GP 3 months after the release. I only care about getting the cheapest deal possible, so if it devalues the indies so be it. Let the other people fund it, and if no one does it, well that's too bad.

 

[texhnolyze]

I feel so bad for just renting a game like gears 5 and outer worlds

Click to shrink...

At least you paid for the service.

A lot of people, including me, played all those games for free because MS keep giving away Gamepass codes in multiple occasions.

 

[Kayant]

We don't know the numbers?
Lol, EGS, Steam, PSNow, Stadia, Gamepass ain't giving you numbers. No platform holder would undermine their negotiating position with publishers by releasing subscriber numbers their competitors would use that's retarded. Only exception is if you're the clear market leader (assert dominance) or you're the only player in the market.

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The only things on that list that would be relevent and close as collection subscription game services/models would be Psnow and gamepass. Of those two Sony have talked about Psnow several times in their financial reports before at points even with raw subscriber numbers-ttps://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-10-30-playstation-now-hits-1-million-subscribers

https://www.gamerevolution.com/news/541809-number-of-playstation-now-subscribers

So your assumption here on information sharing is incorrect. The reason Xbox isn't sharing numbers is more because it's has been a company wide policy with Microsoft and they have been sharing less information on certain things but share more on things on engagement information especially with their services. Which even that has been fairly minimal when it comes to gamepass. The thing is without some kind of qualitative data it is hard to judge looking from the outside whether the service is doing as well as they say it's doing. When you don't know what things they are referring when saying "it's doing well".

My bet is it's probably doing well from third party Devs prospective in terms of pay and engagement for some unexpected titles. Moreover, I imagine engagement is also great for MS studio titles.

The thing I see as a problem is the deep discounting and bundling they are doing atm and whether or not they are able to retain those customers after the promotion has ended and they start to pay full price. Especially with how aggressive they are these days with marketing now they are even doing tv commercials for gamepass(at least in the UK).

 

[JetBazooka]

Because it will show gamepass losing money even though he says it's fine

And that would prove it's not sustainable at its current price and offerings

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Makes sense. Didnt Microsoft say they wanted game pass on as many platforms as possible? The only way gamepass will be sustainable is if they put it on all platforms including ps5 and switch. I think that is MS end goal. To become a third party developer/ peripheral maker.

 

[karnage10]

All of those are Windows, Xbox App or Game Specific problems. Valid concerns, but nothing to do with the business model of GP.

Xbox App is still in Beta, so yeah, expect bugs, lack of features and game specific problems.

Click to shrink...

I'd say the way games are delivered is part of the gamepass business model. Direct competitors don't have those problems (origin access and uplay+) and indirect competitors run games from their servers thus those restrictions apply (PSN Now; nividia)

• Game Pass has nothing to do with this, it's the abilities of the platforms it's on
• See above
• See above
• Gears 4 is on Game Pass, FM7 and FH3 are not. If you have purchased the latter, Game Pass has no impact on you playing them
• Same as first concern

Are you getting Game Pass mixed up with Windows Store?

Click to shrink...

Can you get gamepass on PC without windows store? to my knowledge this is impossible
Note that the current competitors Origin acess and uplay+ don't have those restrictions. Microsoft chose the platform, chose those restrictions. I can't get gamepass without using microsoft store! thus all windows store game problems are gamepass problems.

I don't understand your attitude. Am i supposed to pretend gamepass works better than origin acess? Am I supposed to say that gamepass is fine despite being inferior to its competitors due to microsoft choices?

IMO you are pretending gamepass is just the idea of paying X to have access Y number of games. The way it is delivered is also part of gamepass. The product game pass includes the way the games are delivered which is very flawed at the moment. In my opinion this is what is worth discussing.
Is there any need to have those restrictions? if not what is the plan to remove them? is there a timetable/roadmap for this?

Well as a console only gamer I get what you are saying but we are de facto used to those restrictions.
I wouldn't touch Game Pass on PC to be honest, you have so many deals on other store.

Maybe that's why I'm biased, never took into consideration Game Pass PC.

Click to shrink...

On PC it is still tremendous value, specially if you don't replay games. It is jsut a pity that in terms of service itself it is inferior to its competitors.

 

[zedox]

Makes sense. Didnt Microsoft say they wanted game pass on as many platforms as possible? The only way gamepass will be sustainable is if they put it on all platforms including ps5 and switch. I think that is MS end goal. To become a third party developer/ peripheral maker.

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No.

 

[Femto0]

Ms pays the developers to put their games on gamepass no? I don't see the problem

 

[christocolus]

Makes sense. Didnt Microsoft say they wanted game pass on as many platforms as possible? The only way gamepass will be sustainable is if they put it on all platforms including ps5 and switch. I think that is MS end goal. To become a third party developer/ peripheral maker.

Click to shrink...

Lol.

 

[Deleted member 8196]

EA Premier is the 15/month service with like 4 titles per year. That is a lot of money to rent anthem, fifa, nfs and jedi this year.

Either they are greedy, or their strategy does not see how including all games on day 1 on the Basic service is a viable one.

Click to shrink...

Uhm no, EA Premier has several third party games as well, it's not EA ONLY games and they are not 4 games/year at all.

 

[zedox]

Ms pays the developers to put their games on gamepass no? I don't see the problem

Click to shrink...

There is no issue. Just hypothetical concern about bad situations that hasn't had any signal that would make it a reality.

 

[Evolution of Metal]

Uhm no, EA Premier has several third party games as well, it's not EA ONLY games and they are not 4 games/year at all.

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You are right, there is more than just new EA games. Premier has like extra 10? games over the Basic.

Yet, do you really care about This is the Police 2 or Sea of Solitude to sub for the €15/month service? I think those $60 EA games are the reason people would sub, and the bonus ones are just sprinkles on top. Change my mind.

 

[Kanann]

Anyway, great service and I cheer for them to success.

 

[Dark1x]

I'm genuinely curious why? Presumably you are going to be buying 2 or more Xbox exclusives anyway. Those games aren't leaving the service so I don't see the downside.

Click to shrink...

You own nothing. It's a service. I will never subscribe to such a thing. My internet sucks as is and I discovered how bad most modern devices are when robbed of their connection.

I'm not concerned about it becoming the only option, though. I just don't like how it seemingly devalues games - that's my feeling on it. Better than Stadia, at least.

 

[vlaar]

Great service and I wish them all the best, I'm all in for the subscription future we are embarking on

 

[Andrei Rublev]

You own nothing. It's a service. I will never subscribe to such a thing. My internet sucks as is and I discovered how bad most modern devices are when robbed of their connection.

I'm not concerned about it becoming the only option, though. I just don't like how it seemingly devalues games - that's my feeling on it. Better than Stadia, at least.

Click to shrink...

I feel like I see this argument constantly brought up here, but I have never seen a good argument for why it devalues games. Why does it devalue the experience for you?

 

[Pryme]

But people are less willing to spend top dollar for a single movie than they were before. That's devaluation.

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Strange how nobody has opened threads to say Steam sales, rapid retail discounts and key resellers have devalued games. All these have had a FAR greater impact on customer perception of value of new games than Gamepass.

For this reason, it's Hard to shake the feeling that most of the folks pushing the 'devalue gaming' arguments are merely trolling.

 

[OldDirtyGamer]

I've tried all of the premium services and while I think they are all pretty good , gamepass ultimate is the only one I stick with. So many games get added each month for me to try....a lot that I would have never even considered .

I dont think that devalues games , I think it adds value to the games .

Maybe the big AAA games you could argue get devalued, but how does that affect us , playing them ?

 

[Hesemonni]

I'll keep subscribing as long as cheap opportunities arise, but doubt I'll continue after cheap subs run out.

 

[Schaft0620]

- Games pass costs $120/year.
- About 75 million PS4 users.
- Let's say Microsoft gets 12% of them to subscribe.
- 75,000,000 × .12 = 9,000,000.
- 9,000,000 x $120 = $1,080,000,000

Cost to make GoW (2018) $200,000,000
Cost to make Control $30,000,000

$230,000,000/2 = assumed average cost of biger budget game. $115,000,000

$1,080,000000/$115,000,000 = 9.4

Microsoft could fully fund almost 10 biger budgeted games per year if they can convince 12% of Playstations market share to get Game Pass. Nevermind current Xbox Subscribers.

Control and GoW took 3+ years to make. I'm talking about they could FULLY FUND THESE GAMES IN 1 YEAR. So they could fund the development of 30-32 of these games if they were in a 3 year development cycle.

That's just with 9 million subscribers. They could get 20 million next generation.

For every one million subscribers Microsoft could fund the development of three AAA games.

 

[Deleted member 52190]

- Games pass costs $120/year.
- About 75 million PS4 users.
- Let's say Microsoft gets 12% of them to subscribe.
- 75,000,000 × .12 = 9,000,000.
- 9,000,000 x $120 = $1,080,000,000

Cost to make GoW (2018) $200,000,000
Cost to make Control $30,000,000

$230,000,000/2 = assumed average cost of biger budget game. $115,000,000

$1,080,000000/$115,000,000 = 9.4

Microsoft could fully fund almost 10 biger budgeted games per year if they can convince 12% of Playstations market share to get Game Pass. Nevermind current Xbox Subscribers.

Control and GoW took 3+ years to make. I'm talking about they could FULLY FUND THESE GAMES IN 1 YEAR. So they could fund the development of 30-32 of these games if they were in a 3 year development cycle.

That's just with 9 million subscribers. They could get 20 million next generation.

For every one million subscribers Microsoft could fund the development of three AAA games.

Click to shrink...

Gow didnt cost 200M.

 

[elenarie]

EA Premier is the 15/month service with like 4 titles per year. That is a lot of money to rent anthem, fifa, nfs and jedi this year.

Click to shrink...

Are you ignoring all the third party devs that are part of the sub?

 

[Schaft0620]

Gow didnt cost 200M.

Click to shrink...

I can't recall where I read that but you are further proving my point.

 

[OldDirtyGamer]

- Games pass costs $120/year.
- About 75 million PS4 users.
- Let's say Microsoft gets 12% of them to subscribe.
- 75,000,000 × .12 = 9,000,000.
- 9,000,000 x $120 = $1,080,000,000

Cost to make GoW (2018) $200,000,000
Cost to make Control $30,000,000

$230,000,000/2 = assumed average cost of biger budget game. $115,000,000

$1,080,000000/$115,000,000 = 9.4

Microsoft could fully fund almost 10 biger budgeted games per year if they can convince 12% of Playstations market share to get Game Pass. Nevermind current Xbox Subscribers.

Control and GoW took 3+ years to make. I'm talking about they could FULLY FUND THESE GAMES IN 1 YEAR. So they could fund the development of 30-32 of these games if they were in a 3 year development cycle.

That's just with 9 million subscribers. They could get 20 million next generation.

For every one million subscribers Microsoft could fund the development of three AAA games.

Click to shrink...

GamePass on Playstation wouldnt be the gamepass on xbox and PC.

There would probably be zero 3rd party games because Sony has psnow .

If ms decides to port games to ps4 or 5 , it couldn't be on gamepass . Unless they make MS 1st party titles play anywhere, and then you just buy or stream them on Sony consoles .

 

[low-G]

I feel so bad for just renting a game like gears 5 and outer worlds

Click to shrink...

People rented games all the time in the day, and I'm sure a lot of mom&pops didn't pay for a license to rent out games.

I personally want to be able to jump back into my games in 2,5, or 10 years but this particular market didn't really change.

 

[Judge]

The funny part about the "it devalues games" argument is that MS has outright said that customers spend MORE money when they are subscribed to Game Pass, even on games that aren't in Game Pass. It introduces people to franchises and genres that they have never given a chance and opens eyes to other similar games.

 

[DocH1X1]

You own nothing. It's a service. I will never subscribe to such a thing. My internet sucks as is and I discovered how bad most modern devices are when robbed of their connection.

I'm not concerned about it becoming the only option, though. I just don't like how it seemingly devalues games - that's my feeling on it. Better than Stadia, at least.

Click to shrink...

We also dont own any digital game we buy period. We are renting it for however long the platform holder keeps the service platform up. This includes steam, xbox, playstation. Yeah it's been going for years but 10 years from now.... 20?

 

[Deleted member 45460]

The funny part about the "it devalues games" argument is that MS has outright said that customers spend MORE money when they are subscribed to Game Pass, even on games that aren't in Game Pass. It introduces people to franchises and genres that they have never given a chance and opens eyes to other similar games.

Click to shrink...

Agreed, it seems more like a narrative to fit a fear than something born from actual evidence.

 

[DocH1X1]

The funny part about the "it devalues games" argument is that MS has outright said that customers spend MORE money when they are subscribed to Game Pass, even on games that aren't in Game Pass. It introduces people to franchises and genres that they have never given a chance and opens eyes to other similar games.

Click to shrink...

100% and allows XGS to take more chances and not be overly worried about pure number of copies sold.

 

[Greent4]

Why does it matter whether or not MS is losing money?
We get more games to play, isn't that the point of gamepass?

 

[SecondNature]

Alright so I checked out the PC catalog and its pretty wild.

For $1 a month, I can play games like Hollow Knight and Forza Horizon, two games Im interested in playing.

BTW, how come Sony has never done this with PSNow? It seems like MS beat them to the punch with this cloud/internet service. Netflix of Games is such a solid idea for the future, but the $1 price still seems insane to me

 

[sirap]

Gamepass isn't available in my country, which sucks because the majority of games on it (first and third party) don't even have good regional pricing :/

 

[Evolution of Metal]

Gamepass isn't available in my country, which sucks because the majority of games on it (first and third party) don't even have good regional pricing :/

Click to shrink...

MS is cool with you using the service from another region. As long as your payment method is accepted, you will have no problems or need VPNs to use the service. They will even suggest using VPN in the live support call to "solve" the problem if your payments run into some region checks.

Alright so I checked out the PC catalog and its pretty wild.

For $1 a month, I can play games like Hollow Knight and Forza Horizon, two games Im interested in playing.

BTW, how come Sony has never done this with PSNow? It seems like MS beat them to the punch with this cloud/internet service. Netflix of Games is such a solid idea for the future, but the $1 price still seems insane to me

Click to shrink...

You are looking at the promotional offer, the official/permanent price is $10/month. However, if your sneak is above 1%, the price goes down to around $3-5/month for the next 1-3 years depending on your will to dive in.

 

[SecondNature]

MS is cool with you using the service from another region. As long as your payment method is accepted, you will have no problems or need VPNs to use the service. They will even suggest using VPN in the live support call to "solve" the problem if your payments run into some region checks.



You are looking at the promotional offer, the official/permanent price is $10/month. However, if your sneak is above 1%, the price goes down to around $3-5/month for the next 1-3 years depending on your will to dive in.

Click to shrink...

Ohhh. $10 makes MUCH more sense.

But cant I just buy like 72 months of Game Pass for $1? Like, what's stopping people from stocking up now? That's what I dont get.

 

[VeePs]

Ohhh. $10 makes MUCH more sense.

But cant I just buy like 72 months of Game Pass for $1? Like, what's stopping people from stocking up now? That's what I dont get.

Click to shrink...

I'm pretty sure you can't use multiple trials of game pass on the same account.

 

[SecondNature]

I'm pretty sure you can't use multiple trials of game pass on the same account.

Click to shrink...

Oh wait, so the $1.00 is for only 1 month, and then you are paying the normal $10? Wow that makes so much more fucking sense. I thought you could stack this like XBL Gold or PS+

Even at $5.00 a month, if enough people sign up, that's a lot of profits for many games no? Is Game Pass more profitable than straight up sales? For most middle-value games, it must be, especially SP games that dont have huge funding/backing.

 

[VeePs]

Oh wait, so the $1.00 is for only 1 month, and then you are paying the normal $10? Wow that makes so much more fucking sense. I thought you could stack this like XBL Gold or PS+

Click to shrink...

Yea I'm 99% sure you can only use the promotion once. Currently they have $1 for 3 months of Game Pass Ultimate (Ultimate includes Xbox Live Good, PC Game Pass, and Xbox Game Pass together).

What's cool tho is if you have multiple years of Xbox Live and/or regular Game Pass, if you do this promotion it will convert those subs to Game Pass Ultimate.

For instance, I bought about 3 years of Xbox Live Gold, and did this promotion, and I'm set until the end of 2022.

 

[Rodelero]

I'm pretty sure you can't use multiple trials of game pass on the same account.

Click to shrink...

I think it's a bit YMMV. The small print indicates you can't but I've still never paid full price for game pass or UGP.

 

[Dark1x]

We also dont own any digital game we buy period. We are renting it for however long the platform holder keeps the service platform up. This includes steam, xbox, playstation. Yeah it's been going for years but 10 years from now.... 20?

Click to shrink...

Exactly. I agree 100%. That's why I don't like digital.

I feel like I see this argument constantly brought up here, but I have never seen a good argument for why it devalues games. Why does it devalue the experience for you?

Click to shrink...

For me, this type of service results in a similar situation as having a huge list of roms. For me, this reduces the investment in the game and I struggle to enjoy it or really commit to anything. I think this is a fairly common thing.

It simply isn't for me.

 

[VeePs]

I think it's a bit YMMV. The small print indicates you can't but I've still never paid full price for game pass or UGP.

Click to shrink...

Are you talking about Game Pass trials? You're paying $1 every month for a new game pass trial promotion? Because that's what the user I quoted asked. I didn't think it was possible to use it more than once lol?

Yes, just like PlayStation Plus, Xbox Live Gold, Disney+, Apple Music, and other subscription services you can find ways to pay less than full price.

 

[DocH1X1]

Exactly. I agree 100%. That's why I don't like digital.

Click to shrink...

I totally respect that! I still do digital for convenience but I'm not naive about it for sure!

 

[tutomos]

For every one million subscribers Microsoft could fund the development of three AAA games.

Click to shrink...

Microsoft also has to pay third-party developers so the revenue doesn't translate one to one. If the economics work so well Sony would've jumped in right away, cause there's literally nothing proprietary about Gamepass.

 

[blame space]

every time i turn on my Xbox and my previous game pass has lapsed it offers me at least a month of ultimate for $1. half the time there are two "bonus months" for the same price. i was just looking at what remains of Edith Finch on the eshop and saw it was $20. checked the PlayStation store, $20. checked Xbox.. included with game pass. turned it on, $1/3 month game pass ultimate ad right on the home screen. so now i paid a dollar instead of 20 to be able to play the game i was looking for, as well as many others for three months.

it's great. don't get me wrong. i just feel kind of bad about it to be honest. i don't know HOW it's sustainable.

 

[blame space]

the only problem with game pass is that it's too good.

 

[tutomos]

The thing is without some kind of qualitative data it is hard to judge looking from the outside whether the service is doing as well as they say it's doing. When you don't know what things they are referring when saying "it's doing well".

Click to shrink...

All we have to do is to look at next fiscal year's financial statement. We should see Gamepass adding to the revenue of the Xbox division and if they can narrow the gap against Playstation.

 

[More Butter]

You own nothing. It's a service. I will never subscribe to such a thing. My internet sucks as is and I discovered how bad most modern devices are when robbed of their connection.

I'm not concerned about it becoming the only option, though. I just don't like how it seemingly devalues games - that's my feeling on it. Better than Stadia, at least.

Click to shrink...

That's understandable.

 

[Hawk269]

I feel like I see this argument constantly brought up here, but I have never seen a good argument for why it devalues games. Why does it devalue the experience for you?

Click to shrink...

I have GP on both Xbox and PC...but for me when I think if devaluing the games it comes down to this. If there is a game that I am interested in, not a must have, but one that I am interested in, but let's say did not buy on day 1. When I did buy such a game, I would feel more invested in playing it even though it may have some quirks that I don't like. The fact that I laid out cash for the game, in my head it makes me want to give the game more of a chance and push through some of it's issues.

When I download for free (minus the sub-cost which is almost nothing) a game I am interested in but not a must have, I tend to not feel invested in it and I don't give it much of a chance if there are things that irk me about it. I don't know why, but even back in the Sega Genesis/Nintendo days when I rented a game, it was the same thing. The cost to rent a game was hardly any cost and if the game was just something I wanted to try, I would and if it did not click it went back to the store for something else. It is the same way now for me 30+ years later with GP. I download a game that I am curious, try it for a bit and I toss it (delete it from the HDD) and go to something else. I know it sounds odd, but that is how I am wired when it comes to this stuff. I will give a game more of a chance if it is something I paid for in it's current full price I will give it more of a chance.

On the opposite side of the spectrum though, even with GP if there is a game that I really liked and played more than 80% of or more, I generally buy the game because it is something I want to own. A perfect example is Outer Worlds. Downloaded the game the day it came out and a week later after playing it almost daily (which I rarely do) I still purchased a copy of the game. Gears 5 was the same as well...although not the Ultimate Edition which I normally would/have bought in past Gears games prior to GP.

So for me, it does devalue the game in the sense that If I download it from GP and it does not float my boat rather quickly, I just toss it aside. But on the other hand if it does grab me and I enjoy it immensely I buy the game as I feel the team (the people) that made the game should be paid for the entertainment they are providing me even though I KNOW they are getting paid via GP. To me it is like giving them a "bonus" for a job well done. lol

 

[riotous]

every time i turn on my Xbox and my previous game pass has lapsed it offers me at least a month of ultimate for $1. half the time there are two "bonus months" for the same price. i was just looking at what remains of Edith Finch on the eshop and saw it was $20. checked the PlayStation store, $20. checked Xbox.. included with game pass. turned it on, $1/3 month game pass ultimate ad right on the home screen. so now i paid a dollar instead of 20 to be able to play the game i was looking for, as well as many others for three months.

it's great. don't get me wrong. i just feel kind of bad about it to be honest. i don't know HOW it's sustainable.

Click to shrink...

It's probably not sustainable at the promotional prices they've been throwing around.

It's likely sustainable at or near the full price though.

 

[Rodelero]

Are you talking about Game Pass trials? You're paying $1 every month for a new game pass trial promotion? Because that's what the user I quoted asked. I didn't think it was possible to use it more than once lol?

Yes, just like PlayStation Plus, Xbox Live Gold, Disney+, Apple Music, and other subscription services you can find ways to pay less than full price.

Click to shrink...

They've run different promotions though with different rules and lengths. The Game Pass trial I did was free, the UGP one was £2 for two months or something, and they've since done a $1 for a month thing I think?