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Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,550
No, it's not. To say so would be to erase non-binary people who use the term Latinx or other gender-neutral terms like Latine. It's possible to have a discussion about when and how to use these words. We can talk about recognizing what individual non-binary people in Latino communities would like to be called when using singular nouns. We can also talk about what terms to use when referencing a mixed-gender group of people.
Nobody in this thread is objecting to self-description as latinx. We are objecting to the academic labeling of "a mixed gender group of people", or more accurately, the further labeling of the entire wide variety of people that fall under the already touchy "Latino" label. The problem is that latinx is a term to describe us.

You know why people keep calling it a white term? It's because the vast majority of the people using "Latinx" are anglo; the Latino communities you talk about where it's common are an extreme minority (See the poll this thread is about). Do you understand why it might be a bit offputting to have pressure to adopt a self-label from a audience of primarily white academics? You can't just say "Well it's not just white people" when they're by far the primary face of the word to the communities you're asking to accept it.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,220
I'm still not fully understanding why you would expect the percentage of people actively using latinx to be significantly more than those who identify as non-binary and close allies to them.

People instead use the low usage to disparage it but I feel like if you asked British people whether they identify with or use male, female or gender neutral terms you would get similarly low outcomes for the latter.

This is outside of the contention with the word itself being used to describe people that don't identify with it, more why people use a low percent of use as evidence for its ridicule when it seems like it would run in line with expectation?
 
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Pau

Self-Appointed Godmother of Bruce Wayne's Children
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,847
Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone but could it not be that many Hispanic people feel pressured to use Latinx when around white people in academia? I've personally had fellow Hispanic people tell me that they only use the term around white people (peers and/or professors) because they feel this pressure to come off as "proper."
Yes, I'm sure that happens as well. I think it needs to be a continuing conversation in our communities so that we adopt solutions that let everyone feel included. Because I don't think going back to just using Latino is a solution for everyone.

And we need to be explicit about those solutions with the non-Latino people who copy such adjacent communities.
 
Sep 14, 2019
3,030
This. Always seemed like it was woke white people telling other people what to call themselves. As others have pointed out their are other pronoun neutral descriptors.

I've seen "woke" white people and LGBTQ+ Latinos use "Latinx" as an inclusive term.

I feel indifferent with the term, but when I don't use it I feel I'm not being inclusive, and when I do use it, I feel like I'm pushing a term that my culture doesn't care for (but then I think, "well, my culture doesn't care for my kind to begin with (LGBTQ+), so should I care what they think of the term?" But then I feel bad because not everyone in my culture is a conservative jerk so... 🤷🏽‍♂️).
 
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Koeing

Member
Nov 8, 2018
283
] How do you propose we enforce this desire in the communities who have already adopted it?
You don't. You educate everyone else and teach them that they should use "Latine" as an inclusive term so that "LatinX" never becomes the default. As it stands, the more people are introduced to "LatinX" the more normalized it becomes. I'd rather people push Latine as an inclusive term instead. But, just as I don't want English academics to force an English term onto Spanish speakers, we shouldn't force people who have grown comfortable with the term to be forced to use something else.
 

Tochtli79

Member
Jun 27, 2019
5,777
Mexico City
There's no harm in it if you're willing to accept that a subset of American Spanish speakers will adopt the term to identify themselves in a country of majority English speakers. It's not about you, the person who is not a member of that cultural exchange unless you think that 3% number somehow represents a threat.

My post literally says I accept that a small subset of people from LatAm use the term, and being queer and Mexican I feel the discussion is in fact about me.

I see zero insistence that latinx be inserted into anything other than discussions of immigrant communities within the boundaries of the United States. The pew survey is explicitly scoped that way:


So this narrative of how it's being "shoved down the throats" of all LatAm citizens or being used as a crowbar into cultures where the pronunciation feels extremely unnatural is baseless.

It's not exclusively used in the US. I have lived in Canada and have family there and the term is also used there. Chances are if you encounter an English speaker from whatever country, they'll be familiar with the term, and if I'm in an English speaking country or talking to an English speaker, I would prefer they not use Latinx to ask about my ethnicity (which in my experience happens 99% of the time). As I said, I don't have an issue with someone personally identifying with and using "Latinx", but when it's used broadly to refer to all of us it reeks of superficial wokeness. Dismissing the overwhelming amount of Latin American people who don't like the term, don't identify with it, and offer up plenty of reasons as to why, while implying it's just due to stubbornness and/or ignorance, is pretty hypocritical.
 

Gentlemen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,527
My post literally says I accept that a small subset of people from LatAm use the term, and being queer and Mexican I feel the discussion is in fact about me.



It's not exclusively used in the US. I have lived in Canada and have family there and the term is also used there. Chances are if you encounter an English speaker from whatever country, they'll be familiar with the term, and if I'm in an English speaking country or talking to an English speaker, I would prefer they not use Latinx to ask about my ethnicity (which in my experience happens 99% of the time). As I said, I don't have an issue with someone personally identifying with and using "Latinx", but when it's used broadly to refer to all of us it reeks of superficial wokeness. Dismissing the overwhelming amount of Latin American people who don't like the term, don't identify with it, and offer up plenty of reasons as to why, while implying it's just due to stubbornness and/or ignorance, is pretty hypocritical.
I'm not saying you can't use latine either.

I'm saying both terms can coexist within their desired contexts and that accepting such a reality doesn't have to be this knives-out pain for everybody.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,717
I'm Latino and I don't really care for it, it doesn't even work when speaking Spanish.
I'm not going to tell anyone not to use it but honestly I think just saying "Latin" in english or Latine / Latineis in spanish is fine.
 

MANUELF

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,241
My biggest problem is the need to call everyone south of the US by the same name, just use latin americans like you guys use europeans or asians
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,043
I mean you are free to try and refute the post I quoted and explain just exactly how the positions that many folks in this thread have taken haven't been made in callous disregard of nonbinary people, if not tantamount to outright mockery.
can't the same be said about your comment in regard to latin people? most people here are latines, including myself and we aren;t dismissing the issue, we are talking about different approaches that work better with the language, nothing gross about that
 
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Deleted member 42055

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 12, 2018
11,215
I always say Mexican/Mexican American as I'm proud of that heritage , never have I used LatineX or any variation
 

Pau

Self-Appointed Godmother of Bruce Wayne's Children
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,847
Nobody in this thread is objecting to self-description as latinx. We are objecting to the academic labeling of "a mixed gender group of people", or more accurately, the further labeling of the entire wide variety of people that fall under the already touchy "Latino" label. The problem is that latinx is a term to describe us.

You know why people keep calling it a white term? It's because the vast majority of the people using "Latinx" are anglo; the Latino communities you talk about where it's common are an extreme minority (See the poll this thread is about). Do you understand why it might be a bit offputting to have pressure to adopt a self-label from a audience of primarily white academics? You can't just say "Well it's not just white people" when they're by far the primary face of the word to the communities you're asking to accept it.
For starters, I'm not asking any community to accept the term. I've already said in a previous post what I think the better solution is, which is using the word Latine.

My post was in direct comment to a poster saying that the conversation was over by someone just saying " Stop trying to push that word down our throats." The poster themselves was not clear about what pushing the word down their throats meant. They could have just meant it in the way you're taking it, or they could have meant it as both a group and individual descriptor. I think the conversation benefits from that difference being explicit (and it has been made so by many other posters in the thread which I appreciate). Why does the conversation have be over without making an explicit mention about how the ways that non-binary people decide to self-identify is valid and won't bring on similar frustration or anger?

I understand why some people are calling it a white term, and I understand why it's offputting. I'm not trying to discount that by recognizing Latinos who do use the term and help popularize it with white people. I'm not "just" saying it's not just white people, end of discussion. I'm saying that we can deal with the issue better by recognizing who actually uses the term and why. And just as you've asked me if I understand how my post can be offputting, I would like to ask if you understand why it's offputing to have people (particularly non-Latino people) erase you or your communities identities by ignoring that they exist and dumping them in with "white people"?

Basically, I think there's a way to have this conversation that doesn't discount the perspective of the majority of people from Latin American and Latino communities in the United States, while also not erasing the existence and use of the term by a minority of Latinos in the United States that resulted in white people adopting it, and while also making it explicit that non-binary people should be able to ask us to use whatever terms they are most comfortable with to feel included.
 

Tochtli79

Member
Jun 27, 2019
5,777
Mexico City
I'm not saying you can't use latine either.

I'm saying both terms can coexist within their desired contexts and that accepting such a reality doesn't have to be this knives-out pain for everybody.

So am I and most of the other people that don't use the term. The only problem we have with it is when it's used to refer to all of us, regardless of whether we identify with it or not. And even if the term originated within queer Latin American communities and is meant to be a gender neutral term, the fact is the people using it in the mainstream intend it as a general term to replace "Latin Americans", "Latino/a", "Hispanic", etc., and they happen to mostly be "woke whites". English already had two gender neutral terms in Latin American and Hispanic so I don't buy that there was suddenly a need for English speakers to switch to Latinx unless they believed it was showing solidarity with the community, when it turns out in fact most of that community feels alienated by the term.
 

BLEEN

Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,890
While I don't think it's only woke whites demanding the awkward "Latinx", I think it would also just be way easier if activists pushed for better embracement of "Latin", a word that already exists in both English and Spanish. I think that would still be neutral and feel less performative, no? (note: am Latino)
That's pretty much my view. Or keep it latino/a/e/i/u
x overly complicated things

I never use latinx; it just brings up questions. Which I'm happy to answer.
 

Madison

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,388
Lima, Peru
latinx, latine and latin@ are useful for people that dont fit the gender binary

please take that into account before going like "lol who uses this trash"
 

Bobson Dugnutt

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,052
From wiki:

"Latinx was initially introduced by a Puerto Rican psychology periodical "to challenge the gender binaries encoded in the Spanish Language."

I think the non Hispanic whites get a pass for this one tbh, already gotta defend subjugating 3 quarters of the world, no need to add any more on the plate.
 

Deleted member 2761

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,620
can't the same be said about your comment in regard to latin people? most people here are latines, including myself

I don't think so, but I'm at the moment more concerned with this characterization that it's a non-issue for nonbinary folks. Some of the more hostile responses:

"Grammatical gender is found in many languages. It's understood that it is a not actual gender."
"Absolutely can't stand the phrase personally. None of my immediate or extended family use it either. Like just use latino/a for fuck sake.
Stop trying to make fetch happen.gif
"I don't understand who exactly wants this to be used"
"And here we have a poll confirming that even in the US virtually nobody actually uses "Latinx" and few people have even heard of it. Such an "inclusive" term."

We can talk at length about how Latine is superior or whatever, but that's not how a lot of the conversation is being framed, is it? It's whether an inclusive term to accomodate nonbinary folks should be considered in the first place. And that's...gross.
 

Deleted member 2533

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,325
I understand the problem in Spanish because the language is gendered, but English is not, so I don't see why we need to bring in Spanish solutions to a problem that doesn't exist in English. We can say Latin person, Latin woman, Latin man (camera, tv, lol sorry), we don't say "blacko or Asiana," we say black man, Asian woman.
 

Deleted member 2809

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,478
As a french man, male being default has always been trash and I always welcome neutral alternatives. The X is clumsy, I think latin and latine sound better while working as neutral.
Also, it assumed that Latinos is not gendered in its application. It's grammatical gender.
Also this is a bullshit excuse. Might as well go full on AKSHUALLY.
 

Koeing

Member
Nov 8, 2018
283
latinx, latine and latin@ are useful for people that dont fit the gender binary

please take that into account before going like "lol who uses this trash"
And people are simply saying that LatinX doesn't work in Spanish and that the other two are better suited for the language. Though I seem to remember that people in a previous thread mentioned that using @ was ableist since it made it hard for people who use text-to-speech.
 

Madison

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,388
Lima, Peru
And people are simply saying that LatinX doesn't work in Spanish and that the other two are better suited for the language. Though I seem to remember that people in a previous thread mentioned that using @ was ableist since it made it hard for people who use text-to-speech.
yeah sayin "latinx doesnt work in Spanish" is uh, not true. I know plenty of people that use it for most of their interactions. Of course its a minority, but hey, that doesnt mean that its not valid!
 

Koeing

Member
Nov 8, 2018
283
yeah sayin "latinx doesnt work in Spanish" is uh, not true. I know plenty of people that use it for most of their interactions. Of course its a minority, but hey, that doesnt mean that its not valid!
It sounds dumb as hell to people who speak Spanish. It might look fine in text, but try saying it out loud. Latine works because it simply sounds natural in Spanish.
 

Hu3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,587
yeah sayin "latinx doesnt work in Spanish" is uh, not true. I know plenty of people that use it for most of their interactions. Of course its a minority, but hey, that doesnt mean that its not valid!

no it does not "work", it's not natural it has no flow, it's grammatically incoherent. Stop with this shit. Spanish speaking folk are telling you that latine is more natural.
 

Madison

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,388
Lima, Peru
It sounds dumb as hell to people who speak Spanish. It might look fine in text, but try saying it out loud. Latine works because it simply sounds natural in Spanish.
Yeah the thing is that, although its written as "latinx", people pronounce it as "latine"
Hola a todxs = Hola a todes
Ellx va a comprar = Elle va a comprar

etc

I personally dont use it bc i like latin@s more but I get why some use it

no it does not "work", it's not natural it has no flow, it's grammatically incoherent. Stop with this shit. Spanish speaking folk are telling you that latine is more natural.
Hon i live in south america so maybe dont tell me what spanish speaking folk think?
 

Koeing

Member
Nov 8, 2018
283
Yeah the thing is that, although its written as "latinx", people pronounce it as "latine"
Hola a todxs = Hola a todes
Ellx va a comprar = Elle va a comprar

etc
All the people I've heard use the term use a hard X. If you're just going to pronounce it as an "E" then what's the point of the "X"? People see the X and pronounce it Latin-ECKS. Replace it with an "E" and problem solved.
 

Deleted member 34725

User-requested account closure
Banned
Nov 28, 2017
1,058
I live in LA and some of my very progressive/inclusive Latina friends use the term "Latinx". And yes, they speak spanish...
 

Madison

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,388
Lima, Peru
All the people I've heard use the term use a hard X. If you're just going to pronounce it as an "E" then what's the point of the "X"? People see the X and pronounce it Latin-ECKS. Replace it with an "E" and problem solved.
oh the dynamics when talking in english are its separate issue I think. In the context of spanish, writing latinx, latine and latin@ are essentially the same. They all have the same pronunciation.

In the context of english then yeah I do prefer latine but I think latinx at least shows an effort when it comes to going "you know, I understand that this language is intensely gendered and i acknowledge that other identities exist"
 

WhySoDevious

Member
Oct 31, 2017
8,459
Just use Latin@

That's what we do in Latin American countries when we want to use one word to mean both genders.

It's not grammatically correct and the RAE would have a conniption if you use it in any formal writing, but it will do in informal settings.
 

Koeing

Member
Nov 8, 2018
283
oh the dynamics when talking in english are its separate issue I think. In the context of spanish, writing latinx, latine and latin@ are essentially the same. They all have the same pronunciation.

In the context of english then yeah I do prefer latine but I think latinx at least shows an effort when it comes to going "you know, I understand that this language is intensely gendered and i acknowledge that other identities exist"
Using Latine accomplishes the same thing without confusing English speakers since this is where the majority of people who use the term are located. There is literally no benefit to using LatinX, only downsides that don't exist with the alternatives.

I've literally never heard this word spoken in real life. Only read it on the internet.
It sounds awful
 

Hu3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,587
Hon i live in south america so maybe dont tell me what spanish speaking folk think?

te están exponiendo Varias personas el por que el término no trabaja. Es gramaticamente incorrecto.

por que no mejor abogas por personas que hablan el español, que estudian el español, que disectan el español, establezcan una palabra que no sea binaria.

quieres venir a ofender y con una actitud altruista solo por que asumes que por que tú hablas español otros no lo hacen ?
 

DJChuy

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,237
Never heard of it in real life - only online. I don't have a problem with it other than the pronunciation. Is it latin-ex or latin-equis? Using proper grammar, it should be latino, but latin would be fine.

Anyways, real latin people know the words we use to refer to others are ese or guey.
 

Zetta

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,644
This is my face every time I read Latinx after some time, such a weird word to me.
tenor.gif
 

AliceAmber

Drive-in Mutant
Administrator
May 2, 2018
6,704
Effort to be inclusive is worth it, even if it feels awkwardat first. Based on what I've read it sounds like Latine is a good fit.
 

Madison

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,388
Lima, Peru
te están exponiendo Varias personas el por que el término no trabaja. Es gramaticamente incorrecto.

por que no mejor abogas por personas que hablan el español, que estudian el español, que disectan el español, establezcan una palabra que no sea binaria.

quieres venir a ofender y con una actitud altruista solo por que asumes que por que tú hablas español otros no lo hacen ?
No importa que sea "gramáticamente incorrecto". En teoría, elle o ellx o ell@ son todos gramáticamente incorrectos. El español es un idioma que no da herramientas a las personas no-binarias. Todo tiene que tener un género. La idea de tener un pronombre como Ellx es ir más allá del sistema binario establecido por la RAE y otras instituciones.

"establezcan una palabra que no sea binaria."

En primer lugar, sin importar el origen, he visto latinx ser utilizado por amigxs progresistas, sin importar su origen o su estatus socioeconĂłmico.

Además de eso, ¿qué sugieres que hagamos? ¿qué esperemos a qué aparezca otra palabra del aire? La realidad es que el impulso para establecer un lenguaje más inclusivo ya comenzó. Muchos se lo toman a broma o lo ven como un absurdo, pero es algo que está sucediendo.

Mi actitud "altruista" es porque me gustarĂ­a tener un idioma en el que yo (y otras personas con diferentes identidades) se sientan cĂłmod@s.

Aquí está la realidad: en cualquier momento, puede aparecer una persona que utilice la palabra latinx o amigx o queridx. ¿Qué harás cuándo esto se te presente? ¿Le dirás "estás gramáticamente incorrecto" o aprenderás que el lenguaje tiene diferentes variedades linguísticas y que eso tiene una razón de ser?
 

Pau

Self-Appointed Godmother of Bruce Wayne's Children
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,847
Just use Latin@

That's what we do in Latin American countries when we want to use one word to mean both genders.

It's not grammatically correct and the RAE would have a conniption if you use it in any formal writing, but it will do in informal settings.
There are more than two gender identities, and someone in another thread brought up a good point that Latin@ can be tough or impossible for text-to-speech programs. Which I imagine were the motivations to move towards Latine (in Latin America) and Latinx (in the United States) instead.
 

Merc_

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,536
I've only ever heard white folk on the internet use that term so it doesn't surprise me.
 

Hu3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,587
Mi actitud "altruista" es porque me gustarĂ­a tener un idioma en el que yo (y otras personas con diferentes identidades) se sientan cĂłmod@s.

y yo te entiendo pero aquĂ­ nadie esta abogando por no ser inclusivo.

lo que se está discutiendo es la palabra "latinx", no es vienvenida por el hecho de que no tiene raíces en el lenguaje es gramaticamente secular y la "x" es una coña hacerla trabajar en español.

Lo que digo es que es mejor empujar "latine" , "latin@", "latĂ­n" ( ese esta en discusiĂłn ).

esos términos se sienten más naturales, tienen mejor afluencia, y serían más fáciles de adaptar al uso diario.