Persona 5 tries to be deep, but it fails

[BoJack]

I'm 16 hours into the game now, and the first 10 hours was lovely. I didn't play previous Persona games and I'm not a fan of turn-based games, but it was charming and new and kept growing on me. So don't get me wrong, it's a really good game.

But I have an issue with this game. A huge one. It tries to be deep, to make you question the good and the bad, to think about the morality of things that we as human beings do, but it fails to land properly. It should've been grey - in my opinion - not black and white.

I was expecting to see Kamoshida's (the pervert teacher) side of the story, to see his past and what he has been into that made him this kind of a pesron, but the game just destroys him. In the end he's an giant piece of shit and we're the good guys. And the way that they handle his ending was a huge turn off for me tbh. I can't even continue playing this game anymore, unfortunately. And I really like this game.

I dunno if it's just me or not, but when you try to be deep and meaningful, and you don't consider every single aspect of things, its like you punch me in the ball. And I heard it keeps getting worse in that regard. Maybe I should drop it? I think so.

 

[DC5remy]

 

[Kalentan]

I really like Persona 5 but there is a lot of it that contradicts it's own themes. Ann was done horribly.

 

[No_Style]

If that's what you expecting, then yes: drop it.

 

[Video Games Are Dumb]

I was expecting to see Kamoshida's (the pervert teacher) side of the story, to see his past and what he has been into that made him this kind of a pesron, but the game just destroys him. In the end he's an giant piece of shit and we're the good guys. And the way that they handle his ending was a huge turn off for me tbh. I can't even continue playing this game anymore, unfortunately. And I really like this game.

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So...that was never going to happen. The game is about the dark realities for the perspective of a teenager. I don't think it's trying to be deep, just Young Adult.

 

[Holundrian]

Don't think it tries to be deep given that it's pretty shallow given that it wears its sense of right and wrong pretty openly(as in I don't think the symbolism it employs really leaves things open at all) and doesn't really want the player to question it too much and when it wants the player to question it, it basically tells the player so. It's pure anime where you follow fun characters around nothing more really.

 

[Kyoufu]

I was expecting to see Kamoshida's (the pervert teacher) side of the story, to see his past and what he has been into that made him this kind of a pesron, but the game just destroys him. In the end he's an giant piece of shit and we're the good guys. And the way that they handle his ending was a huge turn off for me tbh. I can't even continue playing this game anymore, unfortunately.

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Were you expecting a Joker origin story for the pervert teacher?

 

[orochi91]

The game leans heavily into the "adults are bad" theme.

Due to that, you're stuck with a group of teenagers who espouse some hella black/white viewpoints.

 

[Etrian Darkness]

Kamoshida's arc is good. Here's me thinking you actually saw the game forget what it learnt and started to contradict itself. If the game actually stayed as good as it was during the first arc I would've liked P5 a lot more, but it didn't.

I'm more confused you were thinking Kamoshida physically and sexually abusing students would have a deep explanation? It doesn't matter why he did it, it matters he did it.

 

[SanTheSly]

If you don't like what I considered to be one of the most gripping intro sequences to a game this generation in a series I previously had absolutely 0 interest in... yeah, maybe drop it.

On the topic of whether things always need to be nuanced or show "both sides", I don't personally think it always needs to be the case. I liked the messaging of P5's overarching plot and themes. It resonated with me a lot during a time when a younger generations seemed to be continually dicked over by those that came before, only interested in enjoying the benefits of the prosperity they grew up in whilst denying that same prosperity to as many others as possible.

Sadly, I feel like we've not come out of that particular tunnel just yet.

 

[Deleted member 5086]

For me it was more the fact that it makes light of the serious themes by undermining them later. Like, Ann being constantly sexually harassed by her own teammates after her arc (and this being played for laughs). Or the theme of the Phantom Thieves being the underdogs fighting against the corrupt adults, but then shitting on one of the most marginalised groups in the world (LGBT+ people). It just made the story fall apart for me, and took me out of the game.

I did end up finishing it, and it placed somewhere on the bottom end of my top 10 games of that year, but I was really disappointed by this aspect of the game. There are of course some things it does well, and I enjoyed them.

 

[Deleted member 45468]

Chapter 1 & 2 are excellent, but it is all downhill after that.

 

[L Thammy]

I don't think all abusers need to be given a sympathetic side.

 

[Chorazin]

Did you really see the girl try and kill herself over what Kamoshida did to her, and then think "But what about his side of things?"

I'm confused why you need to know anything about his past other than he's a rapist.

 

[Deleted member 18379]

The game is shallow with the bad guys. Delving into a sleezy perverts life to understand why he is the way he is was never really the point. The point is to stop who he is now, make him pay for the things he did that were wrong. If that's not enough for you, then I can understand dropping it. The game spends way more time trying to understand your band of misfits than the villains and while it did leave me wanting a bit more at times, I didn't really mind. You will find no Bloody Baron here.

 

[makonero]

Chapter 1 & 2 are excellent, but it is all downhill after that.

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that's a long, long, long, long hill

(the last two dungeons were completely filler and unnecessary, imo)

 

[DNAbro]

You don't have to showcase an abuser's side of the story. Some people are just shitty. That isn't the reason the game isn't deep.

 

[RROCKMAN]

If you don't like what I considered to be one of the most gripping intro sequences to a game this generation in a series I previously had absolutely 0 interest in... yeah, maybe drop it.

On the topic of whether things always need to be nuanced or show "both sides", I don't personally think it always needs to be the case. I liked the messaging of P5's overarching plot and themes, it resonated with me a lot during a time when a younger generations seemed to be continually dicked over by those that came before, only interested in enjoying the benefits of the prosperity they grew up in whilst denying that same prosperity to as many others as possible.

Sadly, I feel like we've not come out of that particular tunnel yet either.

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The intro was damn good but immediately afterward,

"Sorry Ann, guess you gotta pose nekkid even if you don't wanna" really kills the mood. None of the other antagonists were as engrossing as kamoshida either. With traitor person being the biggest joke this side of painful obvious bad guy writing.

 

[mute]

I tend to agree that the game's high points are closer to the start than the end.

 

[Horohorohoro]

I was expecting this thread to be fine, there are a lot of aspects where Persona 5 really fails at its themes, but not showing Kamoshida's backstory or his "side of the story" definitely isn't one of them. You don't have to show the perverted, abusive teacher's side of the story.

 

[Silvergun-Blue]

I really like Persona 5 but there is a lot of it that contradicts it's own themes. Ann was done horribly.

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The best example of this is the fact that the first part of the game centers around an adult male teacher sexually abusing an underage girl, then later on one of the dateable waifu characters is the male MC's female teacher. This is so tone deaf it's unbelievable.

It's like they wrote a story with generally compelling themes then afterwards it was given another pass to add in all the backwards tropes fans of jrpg's expect.

 

[HockeyBird]

I don't think Persona 5 is trying to be that deep and you're looking into it far more than I think game intended. They make it clear that people are like Kamoshida are bad. The only moral question that game really asks is if it is ok to punish someone or force them to admit their wrong doing against their own will.

 

[SammyJ9]

For me it was more the fact that it makes light of the serious themes by undermining them later. Like, Ann being constantly sexually harassed by her own teammates after her arc (and this being played for laughs). Or the theme of the Phantom Thieves being the underdogs fighting against the corrupt adults, but then shitting on one of the most marginalised groups in the world (LGBT+ people). It just made the story fall apart for me, and took me out of the game. I did end up finishing it, and it placed somewhere on the bottom end of my top 10, but I was really disappointed by this aspect of the game. There are of course some things it does well, and I enjoyed them.

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It's the general contrast between the game bringing up more serious themes and elements while also still wanting to be a 'fun, cliched teen anime' complete with the overdone (and outdated) pervy fanservice bits, etc. I agree it's overboard, although I still love the game to death.

The homophobic bits I put more on Atlus than on the game itself, if that makes sense. As in, it's not really the game/characters who are making that statement, it's that someone at Atlus threw in very awful homophobic stereotype characters because they (wrongly) thought they were funny. But that could be me headcanon-ing it a bit.

Still, I thought it was miles better on both the sexual fanservice side and the homophobic side than Persona 4 Golden was, so... maybe they're making some improvment over time? I'm hopeful for Persona 6.

 

[DynamicSushy]

I don't think it's gonna get better from there. Persona 5 prolly has the weakest writing and the worst cast of the recent Persona series. It's a shame cuz the gameplay I hear is very good.

I say this every chance I get: Persona 5 is an adult game for kids. You get the cool anime designs and visuals, themes that are overt and repeat themselves so your young mind can absorb whatever the fuck the game is trying to tell you, and then it slaps in some dark elements to remind itself that it's adult and deserving of its M rating.

I even hear that towards the end, every party member needs to get a damn word in during cutscenes (which P4 also did) and it's just horrible to listen to.

and yes, I haven't even played the dang game. Just going off of osmosis and my pure dislike of the writing in most of these games.

PS: I like Persona 4 a lot. I won't say the writing is BETTER, but it might be more tolerable if you ever decide to give the other games a try.

 

[Cess007]

P5 had many flaws, but I certainly didn't expect the lack of 'showing a sexual abuser side of the story' to mentioned as one.

 

[Master Chuuster]

You know, sometimes when a game tells you that a perverted sexual predator is just a flat-out bad guy, that's okay.

 

[Viale]

It's really not about grey morality. I think people saying it's 'adults are evil' are also reducing the point far too much. It's about corruption from people in power and the ability of those who are typically subjected to it to rise up and make things better.

It's a game about social activism.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

The first arc is fantastic but then everything else fails miserably, it sucks because there was so much potential.

Kamoshida is a fantastic villain imo, I don't think we had to see his side or things.

 

[SammyJ9]

I tend to agree that the game's high points are closer to the start than the end.

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I honestly disagree with this. Yes the first palace is great, and a high point, but honestly I LOVED the 6th palace all the way to the end of the game, and the themes and such it brings up there. And all the plot twists! Unpopular opinion, I know

 

[Deleted member 46958]

Really glad Hashino isn't doing future titles. This allows for a change in narrative and approach to themes.

 

[Deleted member 45468]

that's a long, long, long, long hill

(the last two dungeons were completely filler and unnecessary, imo)

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The third dungeon was filler as well. I really was hoping the game would get back to the quality of chapter one and two but it never does.

 

[Kalentan]

The best example of this is the fact that the first part of the game centers around an adult male teacher sexually abusing an underage girl, then later on one of the dateable waifu characters is the male MC's female teacher. This is so tone deaf it's unbelievable.

It's like they wrote a story with generally compelling themes then afterwards it was given another pass to add in all the backwards tropes fans of jrpg's expect.

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I was honestly thinking about the fact that you get wrongfully sued by a guy for trying to stop a sexual assault.

But when Ryuji is being hit on by two much older men, your only options are to jokingly push him towards them.

You'd think the protagonist who went through the first thing would not joke about two men creeping on Ryuji.

Not even getting into the fact that the scene is part 1 of 2 "gay scare" scenes which is it's own topic entirely.

 

[Deleted member 5086]

It's the general contrast between the game bringing up more serious themes and elements while also still wanting to be a 'fun, cliched teen anime' complete with the overdone (and outdated) pervy fanservice bits, etc. I agree it's overboard, although I still love the game to death.

The homophobic bits I put more on Atlus than on the game itself, if that makes sense. As in, it's not really the game/characters who are making that statement, it's that someone at Atlus threw in very awful homophobic stereotype characters because they (wrongly) thought they were funny. But that could be me headcanon-ing it a bit.

Still, I thought it was miles better on both the sexual fanservice side and the homophobic side than Persona 4 Golden was, so... maybe they're making some improvment over time? I'm hopeful for Persona 6.

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Yeah, I'm no stranger to these tropes as someone who's watched a lot of anime. It was still quite disappointing given the themes they were trying to tackle. Like, they wanted us to take them seriously, but also weren't really trying, if that makes sense. I'm always hopeful for progress. I hope the localisation will at least be better going forward, even if Atlus Japan doesn't change. It seems like they've learned some lessons with Persona 5 R.

 

[Castor Archer]

I disagree about Kamoshida needing a backstory. But I would've loved if the game went into painting the rest of the school staff as villains for trying to cover it up and go into that aspect.

I agree on the whole that Persona 5 falls flat trying to be deep, it's a very black and white one dimensional story with comically bad villains.

 

[Raijinto]

It's one of the game's biggest flaws yeah. Every villain has to one-up the previous so-to-speak in terms of villainy and being threatening basically so it loses the uniqueness and personal nature that Kamoshida had with the protagonists as you just take down big bad mafia boss and big bad CEO for some reasons. There's a very long winded video that delves into how generic and vapid the game becomes in this regard but it was very unpopular here IIRC so I'll refrain from posting it myself.

 

[Papercuts]

I expected a lot of things before I came into this thread, but being disappointed Kamoshida didn't get more of a backstory wasn't one of them.

 

[Richter1887]

There is a part near the end involving one of the antagonists and a certain someone literally explain to you what theirs plans where and how evil they are. It was not natural at all and tells you all you need to know about how bad writing have become.

Persona 3 was not perfect but that story was a masterpiece compared to this. Persona 2 story is on another level when you compare them.

 

[mute]

I honestly disagree with this. Yes the first palace is great, and a high point, but honestly I LOVED the 6th palace all the way to the end of the game, and the themes and such it brings up there. And all the plot twists! Unpopular opinion, I know

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6th was a high point as well, really nice dungeon and overall arc. I'd probably rank it the second best after the first arc. Everything else though other than maybe the 4th just kinda runs together and feels mediocre.

 

[Kain]

The game can be summed up to "adults are bad" so I don't know what to tell you

 

[AzureFlame]

No it didn't fail to me.

 

[Sterling's Gold]

The game is very black and white as to the (im)morality of its villains. It's a narrative aimed at teenagers about inspiring social change. Not sure why you want to see an abuser, perhaps even child rapist (somewhat ambiguous) humanized anyway.

It's all very simple: "wake up, get up, get out there" and all that

 

[Billfisto]

In the end he's an giant piece of shit and we're the good guys.

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I mean, yeah?

The game has it's fair share of problems, but "doesn't humanize an unrepentant sex offender who used his position of power to assault young women and drove someone to attempt suicide" isn't one of them.

 

[AgentLampshade]

Oh I don't even think it tries to be deep. It tackles its themes with the subtlety of a sledgehammer and revels in it.
It's a fun game but it's not one that's supposed to make you think very hard.

 

[Symphony]

Why does Kamoshida need "his side" telling (even though it partially is, just barely given screen time)? He's a huge heap of shit, you're meant to hate him, you're meant to want to bring him to justice for his crimes. There doesn't have to be shades of grey in every story, hearing that he felt "pressure" to keep being on top or whatever story they'd use wouldn't lessen any of his crimes, trying to humanise him would be in super poor taste.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

You wanted Kamoshida to have a redeeming character arc. That's a new one.

 

[Deleted member 60096]

The game can be summed up to "adults are bad" so I don't know what to tell you

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The only part of the game pushing the idea that adults are bad is Ryuuji, who is definitely not the game's sole moral compass. The game has adults within the narrative that might at first seem shitty but are then later portrayed as good. Adults bad is absolutely not the message of the game.

 

[Katonix]

Persona 5 is a great game and top 3 best game of this generation for me.

 

[Mendrox]

It's really not about grey morality. I think people saying it's 'adults are evil' are also reducing the point far too much. It's about corruption from people in power and the ability of those who are typically subjected to it to rise up and make things better.

It's a game about social activism.

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This. The game has a ton of underlining stuff and metaphors which you only notice in a second playthrough and Royal even goes way deeper in a phenomenal way in that regard. I could look for all of that but I am too lazy right now. Even the school quizes are part of the whole thing and there is more to it than meets the eye. The whole last dungeon and the final boss also don't come out of nowhere and starting from the begining of the game it foreshadows everything. It's great in a second playthrough when you start to notice those bits here and there.

Also the whole Yusuke thing is not bad because he wants to draw Ann naked (there even is part in the game where he goes in and explains that he also wants to draw the MC naked because well artist like to draw beautiful things), but Mona Ryuji and you pressing her to do it is the stupid thing.

Gotta hand it to them Scramble solves a lot of the problems I had with the characters and fleshes them out. Feels more like Persona 4 Golden in that they are a group and the added content in Royal also makes it superior to past games for me.

The Haru arc still sucks though, but she is great in Scramble.

 

[diakyu]

Oh I expected this to be about how bad the last fourth of the game is, not the best part of the story lmao

 

[SammyJ9]

6th was a high point as well, really nice dungeon and overall arc. I'd probably rank it the second best after the first arc. Everything else though other than maybe the 4th just kinda runs together and feels mediocre.

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1st, 4th, and 6th are certainly the best, agreed. The 2nd, 3rd, and 5th felt more like 'monster of the week' type stories, which honestly is fine, but not as interesting. I just loved how

Spoiler: Endgame Spoilers

After you beat Shido, the big bad behind everything and the corrupt politician and everyone thinks "they did it, they beat the bad guy! Now everything is going to be okay!" The game says that no, actually while Shido was a problem, the real problem is society as a whole allowing these corrupt people to exist and that we need to take individual responsibility, not put too much hope into 'saviors' and possible false idols, and rise up and speak out against corruption. And the entire idea of breaking society free and being more active and such is basically the final boss itself. I thought it was a fantastic theme to end the game on.