• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Senator Rains

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,337
No but seriously, did someone/somebody organize some sort of complaint? Directed at who? If not, then why did it occur to them to change it only in the english version of P5R?

What confuses me is how it was left up to the localization team of a re-released game to fix this issue. Makes me think that the original writers weren't fazed by the western reaction, which is very weird.
 

Mgs2master2

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,861
I think that's pretty much the case, see P5R, Catherine Full Body's transphobia, and this from P5 Scramble:

Persona-5-Scramble-shadow-joker.jpg


Good on Atlus West for pushing on this though
This literally looks like a Shadow of Joker.

see P4's shadows of the team
images


hqdefault.jpg

latest


P5 Had shadow versions too. They are a running theme in the franchise since 4. IT represents the "true self". Looks like P5S will go that route as the trailer revealed shadow Joker.
 

Viale

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,614


I convinced people I translated this and was in charge of this and a couple white dudes are losing it on me haha.


Twitter was a mistake. Some of those replies are just actual garbage. I did find out we apparently somehow orchestrated a dox on persona 5's director which came as quite the surprise to me despite never seeing anything like that and going into many, many persona threads.

Imagine being so dumb that you decide whether or not you buy a game based on if a gay joke is in it. Madness.
 

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,026
This literally looks like a Shadow of Joker.

see P4's shadows of the team
images


hqdefault.jpg

latest


P5 Had shadow versions too. They are a running theme in the franchise since 4. IT represents the "true self". Looks like P5S will go that route as the trailer revealed shadow Joker.
None of those are black though.
 

Mgs2master2

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,861
None of those are black though.
Gonna assume that he's not obviously black, but they went with what others stated the dark color to represent evil and such. Joker already was covered in all dark colors so i assume they just wanted to fit the over all dark theme.

P5 did something similar but not the entire face or in that entire shade
latest

2-12.jpg
 

sensui-tomo

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,629
Oh if you guys want a fucking head roll/pity laugh. Check the old place out and this topic. It's a fucking 4chan thread at this point.
 

Shudouken

Member
Jun 19, 2019
793
What confuses me is how it was left up to the localization team of a re-released game to fix this issue. Makes me think that the original writers weren't fazed by the western reaction, which is very weird.
I think that's because Atlus doesn't do worldwide simultaneous releases. There is no back and forth with the separate branches.
The game is made in Japan and then handed over once it's finished. If they wanted feedback during the development of royal they'd go to Japanese twitter or similar platforms.
It's very likely that they were completely unaware of the existance of this issue.
 

Eric ShanRick

Member
Mar 24, 2019
5
Interestingly enough, this site is being blamed for the change and the alt-right is spinning this as leftist propaganda yet again. I'm glad Atlus had the common sense to remove that needless scene. Here's to hoping Persona 6 takes a step forward in terms of its politics.
 

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,026
Gonna assume that he's not obviously black, but they went with what others stated the dark color to represent evil and such. Joker already was covered in all dark colors so i assume they just wanted to fit the over all dark theme.

P5 did something similar but not the entire face or in that entire shade
latest

2-12.jpg
Watch the trailer, he definitely is. (Timestamp 1:49)

youtu.be

『ペルソナ5 スクランブル』PV#02

PlayStation®4&Nintendo Switch™より2020年2月20日発売!アトラス×コーエーテクモゲームスが送るペルソナシリーズ初のアクションRPG『ペルソナ5 スクランブル ザ ファントム ストライカーズ』怪・盗・乱・舞!ペルソナ5のその後の物語をご覧あれ!---▼購入ガイドhttps://p5...
 

Syrenne

Producer of Manifold Garden
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
131
I think that's because Atlus doesn't do worldwide simultaneous releases. There is no back and forth with the separate branches.
The game is made in Japan and then handed over once it's finished. If they wanted feedback during the development of royal they'd go to Japanese twitter or similar platforms.
It's very likely that they were completely unaware of the existance of this issue.

I can personally say that I know for a fact they were very much aware of the issue. Not only from feedback from Atlus West (both following the launch of the original game and during P5R's development,) but from fan feedback. It's not that Atlus West and Atlus Japan don't talk, it's that Atlus Japan doesn't listen. The key phrase from the GameSpot article is that they had to keep pushing to get the green light on this specific minor change. i.e. they asked, and asked, and asked again (and probably asked if the dev team could change it while P5R is in development) and kept being told they had to keep it the way it was, until finally they relented. Atlus Japan very much wants the homophobic content intact as designed.

And it's not like Atlus didn't just have ANOTHER series of internal conversations and fights about Catherine FB.
 

Mgs2master2

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,861
Watch the trailer, he definitely is. (Timestamp 1:49)

youtu.be

『ペルソナ5 スクランブル』PV#02

PlayStation®4&Nintendo Switch™より2020年2月20日発売!アトラス×コーエーテクモゲームスが送るペルソナシリーズ初のアクションRPG『ペルソナ5 スクランブル ザ ファントム ストライカーズ』怪・盗・乱・舞!ペルソナ5のその後の物語をご覧あれ!---▼購入ガイドhttps://p5...

Most def thank you for this. Not to change the topic of what we were talking about, but that's the first time I have seen this. Holy shit that's bad ass how he's introduced. That grin of his while you know flat out he's evil (shadow Joker). Holy shit.
 

Antoo

Member
May 1, 2019
3,779
I'd like to know if this is true or not but I've read that apparently in Japan the scene in question plays out completely differently. They are in a gay bar district and the two men aren't played out as stereotypes. They just ask if Ryuji wants to have a drink with them and Ryuji freaks out because he's underage. Is this true?

EDIT: Looked around and it seems to be a false rumor.
 
Last edited:

Yukari

Member
Mar 28, 2018
11,685
Thailand
I'd like to know if this is true or not but I've read that apparently in Japan the scene in question plays out completely differently. They are in a gay bar district and the two men aren't played out as stereotypes. They just ask if Ryuji wants to have a drink with them and Ryuji freaks out because he's underage. Is this true?

I not remember they go gay bar?
 

Zimmiwood

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,077
If Resetera really had that sort of power I'd make more threads lol
As a representative of the gay agenda™, I want more than just a few bad scenes to be edited in the localisation of a singular game.
Aaayyyyyyyye me too lmao
So all this time all i had to do to get gay romances in persona was make a bunch of threads about it? Damn better get to work for persona 6 lol
 
Aug 27, 2018
2,779


I convinced people I translated this and was in charge of this and a couple white dudes are losing it on me haha.

Just saw this and came to bring attention to it, that website is a garbage fire. The good news though is at least we know he actually wrote that article himself because Gematsu doesn't write up absolute garbage.
 
Oct 25, 2017
34,775
According to twitter, Era is the reason why this change happened. "WE FORCED IT"!!!!111!!111


Jokes aside, twitter is literally saying ResetEra forced this change. Kinda baffled, but unsurprised.

The reality is that we barely have any power.
We only have 50k members (and I don't know if that counts perma-banned members). For a game that sold over 2 million copies, that's not much.
And even then, not everyone here cares about the content of Persona 5 to make a complaint.

This place is just a convenient scapegoat.
Also, they never provide evidence. The review-bombing of Ai:The Somnium Files incident at least had the person that did it unknowingly admit to it.
 

OldGamer

Member
Jul 6, 2019
389
Some people are really making a mountain out of a molehill with the redone localization. What we are being told is that some lines will be retranslated and localized. That's it.

That really stretches the definition of "censorship". At worst, it could be considered a Woolsey-esque translation in parts, which is hardly a big issue. It's not like we are getting actual content cut out of the game. Just a less literal translation.
 

sensui-tomo

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,629
I'm getting some side eye remarks while talking about this lol . Some responses like "the localization team have no right to change things " ... fucking lord it's like their goddamned job to do that
 

univbee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
213
Some people are really making a mountain out of a molehill with the redone localization. What we are being told is that some lines will be retranslated and localized. That's it.

That really stretches the definition of "censorship". At worst, it could be considered a Woolsey-esque translation in parts, which is hardly a big issue. It's not like we are getting actual content cut out of the game. Just a less literal translation.

There's this persistent notion among people that a literal translation is how you translate popular media when that is usually the last thing you want to do, especially for translating Japanese to a Western language. There is so much subtext and cultural baggage in Japanese that you have no choice but to work around if you want the end product to actually be enjoyable. Likewise, a translated work that's aimed at "the masses" should be evoking as close as possible to the same emotional response original language consumers had. If a line didn't create revulsion with the original text, but did with the translated text, then I don't care what your Japanese->English dictionary has to say about accuracy, it's objectively a bad translation.
 

BrandoBoySP

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,176
Here's an interview about localization that's really intriguing, but in particular for this thread:


There's still content that doesn't go over well for the audience. How much say do you have in whether or not that content makes it in the game? Do you have autonomy in terms of recognizing what won't play well and what to do with it? How do you approach that?


There were certain things in Persona 3, 4 and 5, especially now in 2020, where there would be a lot of talk about the things in those games. As a localization manager, I really cannot do too much about what has already made it into the game.

But in Persona 5, there were a few NPCs that, while we were doing the localization, our team members felt a little bit of awkwardness about when working on it. And with Royal, we were determined to see if we could do something about it at least localization-wise. On our end, it took a lot of effort consulting not just the production department, but talking with our marketing, and how they would feel about it if we changed how things were in Persona 5 to this new way--what would the public reception be, what the company would think, whether it would be okay if we do make the change.

Ultimately for Royal, we did go with it and I think we're pretty happy with what it is. It's not a significant change, but I think there's enough of a change that people who weren't comfortable going through that part in Persona 5 would feel better this time around.

Are you able to say exactly what it is? What part of the game that you were referring to?

So basically, I'm just going to say it right now there are these two gay men who hit on Ryuji. I think the community had a very strong response to that, and you saw that, and that was definitely altered for Royal.

Can you expand on how that was changed?

Unfortunately, those characters were portrayed [as] more like predatory. In Royal--I don't want to say we made it mild--but we made it [as if they're] being very strong enthusiasts for something they like doing. But it's not like they're on the hunt for some young boys or anything.

I know the anti-SJW crowd is going to fully ignore that the localizers were the ones that wanted to change it in the first place, but I find it hilarious that it basically means that the ~SJWs~ are the localizers themselves.
 

PK Gaming

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,331
I can personally say that I know for a fact they were very much aware of the issue. Not only from feedback from Atlus West (both following the launch of the original game and during P5R's development,) but from fan feedback. It's not that Atlus West and Atlus Japan don't talk, it's that Atlus Japan doesn't listen. The key phrase from the GameSpot article is that they had to keep pushing to get the green light on this specific minor change. i.e. they asked, and asked, and asked again (and probably asked if the dev team could change it while P5R is in development) and kept being told they had to keep it the way it was, until finally they relented. Atlus Japan very much wants the homophobic content intact as designed.

And it's not like Atlus didn't just have ANOTHER series of internal conversations and fights about Catherine FB.

That's extremely disheartening
 
Oct 25, 2017
34,775
Here's an interview about localization that's really intriguing, but in particular for this thread:



I know the anti-SJW crowd is going to fully ignore that the localizers were the ones that wanted to change it in the first place, but I find it hilarious that it basically means that the ~SJWs~ are the localizers themselves.

I know you're being facetious but that's literally what the "anti-SJW" crowd already believes. That localization offices are "infested" and they need to "get California out of gaming". It gets ugly.
 
May 13, 2019
1,589
There's this persistent notion among people that a literal translation is how you translate popular media when that is usually the last thing you want to do, especially for translating Japanese to a Western language. There is so much subtext and cultural baggage in Japanese that you have no choice but to work around if you want the end product to actually be enjoyable. Likewise, a translated work that's aimed at "the masses" should be evoking as close as possible to the same emotional response original language consumers had. If a line didn't create revulsion with the original text, but did with the translated text, then I don't care what your Japanese->English dictionary has to say about accuracy, it's objectively a bad translation.
But what if the creators want a literal translation because they don't want the localization to mess with their works like what was the case with Kojima and the first Metal Gear Solid game?
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,157
Greater Vancouver
But what if the creators want a literal translation because they don't want the localization to mess with their works like what was the case with Kojima and the first Metal Gear Solid game?
If the creators are fighting for shitty homophobic representations (which are plenty shitty towards people in Japan already), then frankly they can fuck off. There is nothing in that scene worth defending.
 
May 13, 2019
1,589
If the creators are fighting for shitty homophobic representations (which are plenty shitty towards people in Japan already), then frankly they can fuck off. There is nothing in that scene worth defending.
If Syrenne's statement is any indications, that's exactly what happened here. God bless the localization team for fighting tooth and nail until they managed to twist the arm of Atlus Japan.
 

Mgs2master2

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,861
sorry to bump this, but i am looking back at this and finding the whole thing super funny still.
People are going "SJWs censored our game!"
Like... do people not realize, that the Phantom Thieves are Literal SJWs? The whole game you play as SJWs to fight the injustices of society.
 

BrandoBoySP

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,176
I know you're being facetious but that's literally what the "anti-SJW" crowd already believes. That localization offices are "infested" and they need to "get California out of gaming". It gets ugly.

Eh, here and there. Most of what I see is them claiming that the localizers are bending to "SJW pressure," not that it was the localizers' choice to do this in the first place. You're right though: they'll find a way to scream about it no matter what.
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
sorry to bump this, but i am looking back at this and finding the whole thing super funny still.
People are going "SJWs censored our game!"
Like... do people not realize, that the Phantom Thieves are Literal SJWs? The whole game you play as SJWs to fight the injustices of society.

You see it with basically every "fanbase", and it's baffling. I just have to assume there are a lot of people who are incredibly bad at understanding theme.

My brain still can't comprehend that there are homophobic and racist Star Trek fans out there.
 

univbee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
213
But what if the creators want a literal translation because they don't want the localization to mess with their works like what was the case with Kojima and the first Metal Gear Solid game?

I feel like that was more Kojima ensuring that his intended message WAS preserved. Probably more a message for management than for the localization team, who are generally all about preserving things as necessary and only making significant changes when it's really properly justified (as it is in this case). Kojima probably knew that some of his messaging could be seen as anti-military or anti-American and wanted to make sure that angle stayed put. If it hadn't, that definitely would have been a more reasonable accusation of censorship than this is. I could see him being antsy especially since that wasn't far removed from Nintendo having crazy rules about all console games having to be child-appropriate and avoid real life politics/religion and stuff like that completely.

It's also not uncommon for good translators/good translation teams to put out bad work specifically because they either weren't given the resources required (e.g. it was really common back in the day to just have the script dump completely out-of-context with no indication even of who was talking, leading to interesting mistakes, and absurdly short deadlines were also really common) or their hands were tied in some fashion. If you're not letting good workers who know what their doing operate their way, your end result will have problems for sure.

Lastly, it's important to remember that these kinds of attacks on protected classes can actually be really bad in non-US parts of the west, or even illegal. And yes, this would be handled differently for a historical work than a contemporary work. You can live in a country where stuff like the original Birth of a Nation and Mein Kampf are available (especially if they're in a package that frames the historical nature of the work and inappropriateness of its content, like what those dicey Warner Bros. Cartoons have for a message on their DVDs), while also not allowing the sale of a new piece of work whose underlying message is making a protected class of people into a punchline.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,615
According to twitter, Era is the reason why this change happened. "WE FORCED IT"!!!!111!!111

Jokes aside, twitter is literally saying ResetEra forced this change. Kinda baffled, but unsurprised.

We live rent free in people's heads.

Ultimately it was the localization's team that made the call and no one elses. But weirdly the gaming community gives us more power (real or not) by attributing us to having that much influence over game devs.

Kind of funny.
 
May 13, 2019
1,589
I feel like that was more Kojima ensuring that his intended message WAS preserved. Probably more a message for management than for the localization team, who are generally all about preserving things as necessary and only making significant changes when it's really properly justified (as it is in this case). Kojima probably knew that some of his messaging could be seen as anti-military or anti-American and wanted to make sure that angle stayed put. If it hadn't, that definitely would have been a more reasonable accusation of censorship than this is. I could see him being antsy especially since that wasn't far removed from Nintendo having crazy rules about all console games having to be child-appropriate and avoid real life politics/religion and stuff like that completely.
I have yet to play MGS so I now wonder what theme could be considered problematic enough to be toned down/removed on the localization?

Alas, perhaps we will never know the real reason of why Blaustein never worked on MGS ever again, aside from the man's own account where he states that Kojima simply thought that his work had been "tinkered" with and was none too pleased by that.

www.polygon.com

The bizarre, true story of Metal Gear Solid’s English translation

Written by the man who did it
It's also not uncommon for good translators/good translation teams to put out bad work specifically because they either weren't given the resources required (e.g. it was really common back in the day to just have the script dump completely out-of-context with no indication even of who was talking, leading to interesting mistakes, and absurdly short deadlines were also really common) or their hands were tied in some fashion. If you're not letting good workers who know what their doing operate their way, your end result will have problems for sure.
Blaustein also talks about that in the article linked above.

I had never taken on a job of this size before. Vandal Hearts and Castlevania were tiny compared to Metal Gear Solid, and I was not experienced enough yet to know that I should have arranged a payment schedule with Konami so that I would get paid each month for hitting certain deadlines. Instead, I had no income for seven to eight months; I was to be paid the full amount when the entire job was finished.

And so we were starving poor as I worked full-time on Metal Gear Solid. The days became shorter in the Massachusetts winter, there was no money at all, and the stress was off the charts. I worked in a tiny "office" the size of a small bathroom as the two kids played and cried outside the door, three feet away. The job had me on edge to the point that I was taking diazepam — commonly known as Valium — to handle the stress.

Other examples that comes to mind is Square giving Ted Woolsey a month to only translate Secret of Mana but also have the text inserted on the game or the translation team of Final Fantasy VII having to extract the text from the game via Gameshark if i recall correctly.
 

Deleted member 1238

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,070
Atlus,
company of greed and homophobia,

We will expose your distorted perception of LGBTQ community. We will steal your heart, and when we succeed you will change those scenes with your own two hands. No more will you belittle the lifestyles of those who simply wish to carry on. Your desires will be silenced.

from:
ResetEra
 

Biske

Member
Nov 11, 2017
8,255
The other day was reading comments on the Atlus facebook post. Hahaha bunch of fucking dorks whining how resetera ruined their game.

I just cant even.
 

Dee Dee

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,868
The other day was reading comments on the Atlus facebook post. Hahaha bunch of fucking dorks whining how resetera ruined their game.

I just cant even.

Can't wait for the fan mod that restores the proper harmful and stereotypical representation of gay people. Just as the author intended.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,547
He's had a thing against the site after this went public in a big way:
www.resetera.com

Documented evidence surfacing of NicheGamer's Plagiarism of Articles from Gematsu.

In the past few hours, several instances of plagurism has been noted by Gematsu's twitter, committed by NicheGamer writers who lift edited PRs and other blurbs of text from Gematsu articles of the same subjects without credit, and the twitter has been replying to many article tweets plagiarized...
It's about ethics in being a plagiarizing little bitch.
 
OP
OP
DNAbro

DNAbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,866
I wonder if they think that by invoking our name so much that we'll go away?

Saw legitimate posts about how resetera needs to be shutdown for this. I mean this site can often be a train wreck but in reality we are are just a bunch of nerds talking about video games. If we actually had power the industry would look totally different lmao.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,615
Saw legitimate posts about how resetera needs to be shutdown for this. I mean this site can often be a train wreck but in reality we are are just a bunch of nerds talking about video games. If we actually had power the industry would look totally different lmao.

Wait... were you not invited the meeting where we influence the gaming industry? Thought everyone was...