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OrigamiPirate

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 31, 2017
582
San Francisco
Can someone explain to me how it's homophobic? There seems to be a consensus here that it is... Looks like an overly zealous gay guy hits on someone who doesn't want it. He reacts negatively. What am I missing and why is it so critical that it requires censorship?

These characters repeatedly hit unwantedly upon the core cast of main (male) characters and are presented as predators. Ignoring the fact that the core cast of (male) characters treat their female compadres this way through the game (at least as late as Shido's palace in the original game), which the game does nothing with- the game takes pains to present these characters (unfortunately the game's highest profile LGBT characters) as "weirdos", even as it preaches against the ills of mandatory conformity and the dangers of buying into what you're told wholesale.

edited to add: I wouldn't say most of us are asking for censorship, just better and more consistent writing
 

Wracu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,396
Who is it exactly at Atlus that needs firing into the sun? They were so much better on these issues 20 years ago, which makes no sense. It's infuriating.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,127
That's true, but it shouldn't be framed or approached in terms of Atlus needing to listen to westerners. Not that I know how we would encourage Japanese players to speak up.

I think it is best if we let Japanese LGBT consumers grow their own movement and make their voices heard themselves. As westerners it's very difficult to play a part in that without it coming off as attempting to hijack it.

It's easy to go "tsk tsk, those homophobic Japanese gamers," but the reality is these sort of jokes were super common in American media even 10-15 years ago. I think change will happen, just not overnight, as movements grow and the new generation grows up.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
99
NY
These characters repeatedly hit unwantedly upon the core cast of main (male) characters and are presented as predators. Ignoring the fact that the core cast of (male) characters treat their female compadres this way through the game (at least as late as Shido's palace in the original game), which the game does nothing with- the game takes pains to present these characters (unfortunately the game's highest profile LGBT characters) as "weirdos", even as it preaches against the ills of mandatory conformity and the dangers of buying into what you're told wholesale.
Great explanation. Seems ironic in a good way though.

I thought it was just referencing this scene exclusively and not a bunch of events and characters from the entire game. I could see how one could be unhappy with the representation.
 

Deleted member 11008

User requested account closure
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
6,627
Coming from (and still) playing AI: The Somnium Files, I don't mind if this bomb very hard both and outside Japan.
 

Jotakori

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,183
Can someone explain to me how it's homophobic? There seems to be a consensus here that it is... Looks like an overly zealous gay guy hits on someone who doesn't want it. He reacts negatively. What am I missing and why is it so critical that it requires censorship?
It's homophobic for many reasons:
-two grown men pursuing underage boys (feeds into a very harmful stereotype/homophobic rhetoric)
-these men pursue Ryuji aggressively, to the point of it feeling rapey (also very harmful stereotype)
-portraying these gay men as super over the top and ridiculously flamboyant specifically for the aim of making them "weird" to the audience
-that all of the above is played for laughs, treating gay men like a joke
 

Maxina

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,308
How many of these scenes were there anyways? I remember the one posted in the OP, and the beach one, but was there another one? Wouldn't surprise me if they get an extra scene or two to add salt to the wound.
 

Hace

Member
Sep 21, 2018
894
Atlus, the Chick-fil-A of game developers.

"B-b-but my homophobic game overpriced chicken dunked in pickle brine is delicious! Sorry, gays!"

Disgusting, and people WILL hand-wave it away.

i agree it sucks ass and shouldnt be supported, but chickfila literally finances anti-lgbt groups and legislature, lets not do that kind of comparison.
 

Moara

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,836
Atlus continuing to be shit? How surprising.

I doubt it's just a matter of them keeping the original scenes either. Knowing their track record, I guarantee you that they double down on it with even more scenes.
 

MinusTydus

The Fallen
Jul 28, 2018
8,198
Remember when people were saying maybe Atlus would add Ryuji/Yusuke/Akechi as a dateable option for protag? Yeah...

It's homophobic for many reasons:
-two grown men pursuing underage boys (feeds into a very harmful stereotype/homophobic rhetoric)
-these men pursue Ryuji aggressively, to the point of it feeling rapey (also very harmful stereotype)
-portraying these gay men as super over the top and ridiculously flamboyant specifically for the aim of making them "weird" to the audience
-that all of the above is played for laughs, treating gay men like a joke

Don't forget, after Ryuji begs for Joker's help, the only options you have are:

- Ignore him
or
- Make fun of him

uC7hF0b.png
 

Jotakori

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,183
Remember when people were saying maybe Atlus would add Ryuji/Yusuke/Akechi as a dateable option for protag? Yeah...



Don't forget, after Ryuji begs for Joker's help, the only options you have are:

- Ignore him
or
- Make fun of him

uC7hF0b.png

Ah yes, the good ol' cherry on top of 'hey, let's dismiss and/or laugh at our friend when they're feeling scared and violated!'
🙃 🙃 🙃
 

Deleted member 2669

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,044
I think it is best if we let Japanese LGBT consumers grow their own movement and make their voices heard themselves. As westerners it's very difficult to play a part in that without it coming off as attempting to hijack it.

It's easy to go "tsk tsk, those homophobic Japanese gamers," but the reality is these sort of jokes were super common in American media even 10-15 years ago. I think change will happen, just not overnight, as movements grow and the new generation grows up.
I guess a lot of things come down to waiting for the otaku market to inevitably collapse on itself.
 

Nimby

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,217
Yeah, fuck this shit. And to be completely honest, as bad as this depiction is, Catherine and Persona 4 are even worse for queer folk.

Standard fare for Atlus, doubt the localization does anything.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Did they change anything with Akechi? Spoiler tag it if you must
Seems they made Joker sympathetic to him and made him wish he didn't die. So it is even worse than I would have thought. Akechi doesn't deserve redemption.

Which is stupid, cause I sure as hell would never wish for that and Atlus's reason for Joker not being voiced is that he is "self insert". Akechi should have been thrown in the trash where he belongs.
 

TetraGenesis

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,138
It's sad but completely unsurprising. I remember saying when Royal was announced that a better Persona 5 needed edits and replacements, not just additions. But of course there was no chance that'd be the case. Even the hateful content is too precious to them.
 
OP
OP
Lant_War

Lant_War

Classic Anus Game
The Fallen
Jul 14, 2018
23,556
Seems they made Joker sympathetic to him and made him wish he didn't die. So it is even worse than I would have thought. Akechi doesn't deserve redemption.

Which is stupid, cause I sure as hell would never wish for that and Atlus's reason for Joker not being voiced is that he is "self insert". Akechi should have been thrown in the trash where he belongs.
Yeah, that's pretty bad. It also undermines the themes of the story, makes no sense.

About the other thing, please tell me they didn't do anything with Shiho, that was something the original handled well.
 

Lord Vatek

Banned
Jan 18, 2018
21,507
Yeah, that's pretty bad. It also undermines the themes of the story, makes no sense.

About the other thing, please tell me they didn't do anything with Shiho, that was something the original handled well.
There's a cognitive version of her in the Kamoshida boss fight who wears a skimpy bunny outfit and is weak to physical attacks.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Yeah, that's pretty bad. It also undermines the themes of the story, makes no sense.

About the other thing, please tell me they didn't do anything with Shiho, that was something the original handled well.
Let's just said they sexualized them and made them apart of a boss fight with their weakness being that you can't use persona on them so you need to hit them directly.
 
OP
OP
Lant_War

Lant_War

Classic Anus Game
The Fallen
Jul 14, 2018
23,556
Shiho content

OmegaDL50

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,661
Philadelphia, PA
Let's just said they sexualized them and made them apart of a boss fight with their weakness being that you can't use persona on them so you need to hit them directly.

Isn't this
the same character who wore a long sleeve shirt / turtleneck to hide bruises covered in bandages because she was physically and sexually assaulted to point of attempting to commit suicide?
and she can ONLY be hurt by being physically attacked?

What the fuck Atlus!?
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Isn't this
the same character who wore a long sleeve shirt / turtleneck to hide bruises because she was physically and sexually assaulted to point of attempting to commit suicide?
and she can ONLY be hurt by being physically attacked?

What the fuck Atlus!?
That's the one.

Atlus just loves somehow proving us wrong when we think they couldn't get any worse.
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
Let's just said they sexualized them and made them apart of a boss fight with their weakness being that you can't use persona on them so you need to hit them directly.

Is this what's happening or is she weak to physical attacks? Because there are physical spells in the game that hit that weakness
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
There's a cognitive version of her in the Kamoshida boss fight who wears a skimpy bunny outfit and is weak to physical attacks.
Let's just said they sexualized them and made them apart of a boss fight with their weakness being that you can't use persona on them so you need to hit them directly.
Wtf...cause that's what this game needed, more extremely problematic shit. Honestly this is worse than the homophobic scenes imo, and those are already bad enough. Think I'm gonna skip this version.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Is this what's happening or is she weak to physical attacks? Because there are physical spells in the game that hit that weakness
Could be. I might be wrong about having to not use persona but the thing is that using simple attacks will end up being the main strategy as you don't need to use stamina.

Which is probably what Atlus wanted.
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
Could be. I might be wrong about having to not use persona but the thing is that using simple attacks will end up being the main strategy as you don't need to use stamina.

Which is probably what Atlus wanted.

I mean, those are two very different situations for the game to force you to have your party members attack her without personas and having that as a weakness as most of your party have physical skills at that point. I never attacked without using a skill like that unless absolutely necessary in the base game. Neither situation is great, but those are vastly different.

Also, the plot stuff you're putting in spoilers was all speculation from one person.
 

NoKisum

Member
Nov 11, 2017
4,913
DMV Area, USA
i agree it sucks ass and shouldnt be supported, but chickfila literally finances anti-lgbt groups and legislature, lets not do that kind of comparison.
Considering we have "revered" people like Sugiyama in the industry, who knows what the Atlus devs are doing behind closed doors since they made it clear of their hatred upfront.
 

Dalik

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,528
Imagine actually buying a game with this fucking shit in
i agree it sucks ass and shouldnt be supported, but chickfila literally finances anti-lgbt groups and legislature, lets not do that kind of comparison.
You don't know if they are not doing that themselves. You don't create a game in 2017/9 with that kind of scene without having a clear agenda.
Even if they are not, it still perpetues vile stereotypes and promotes dehumanisation and discrimination.
Every time I see a persona 5 avatar or art I can't help but feel disgusted.
 

OmegaDL50

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,661
Philadelphia, PA
Because people use a specific avatar from a game or character they like is its own sort of stereotype as well. That it itself becomes about labeling folks because they like a certain genre (Anime avatar shaming for instance) and typically devolves into discrediting the post of the individual and sweeping it under a generalization.
 

Baphomet

Member
Dec 8, 2018
16,884
I like Atlus games but even I must say yikes on the Shiho stuff , who the fuck thought that was a good idea.
 

Regulus Tera

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,458
You guys really need to at least provide translations in the OP of screenshots purely in Japanese if you want people to rally up to your cause.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
I mean, those are two very different situations for the game to force you to have your party members attack her without personas and having that as a weakness as most of your party have physical skills at that point. I never attacked without using a skill like that unless absolutely necessary in the base game. Neither situation is great, but those are vastly different.

Also, the plot stuff you're putting in spoilers was all speculation from one person.
I don't see how is different. The fact you need to use physical skills which means that Atlus is being "cheeky" by joking about her physical abuse which is fucked up and because they wanted to taunt the player that they need to use physical attacks just like Kamoshida.

As for the other point, it was already hinted at before the release and there is even a dialogue from that person implying it. And knowing how "subtle" Atlus was with the twist of Royal and the Catherine remake, I find it hard to believe it is not how it is looking like.
 
Jan 3, 2019
3,219
Seems they made Joker sympathetic to him and made him wish he didn't die. So it is even worse than I would have thought. Akechi doesn't deserve redemption.

Which is stupid, cause I sure as hell would never wish for that and Atlus's reason for Joker not being voiced is that he is "self insert". Akechi should have been thrown in the trash where he belongs.
Even though everyone saw it coming, this is still upsetting.

There's a cognitive version of her in the Kamoshida boss fight who wears a skimpy bunny outfit and is weak to physical attacks.
What the fuck
 

Deleted member 38050

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 10, 2018
706
Imagine actually buying a game with this fucking shit in
I know this isn't going to be a popular stance in this thread, but yeah, I'm gonna buy this game anyway because 80 hours of great game beats out 45 seconds of shitty homophobia. Do we even know this shit is gonna be in the loc, anyway? Maybe Atlus USA will alter it
 

OmegaDL50

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,661
Philadelphia, PA
I know this isn't going to be a popular stance in this thread, but yeah, I'm gonna buy this game anyway because 80 hours of great game beats out 45 seconds of shitty homophobia. Do we even know this shit is gonna be in the loc, anyway? Maybe Atlus USA will alter it

Based on the unchanged stuff in Catherine Full Body, it's not looking hopeful.

Keep in mind this stuff also existed in the original release. If anything I'd say Atlus is going to reuse a large portion of the existing localization and only accommodate changes with the new inclusions in Royal.
 

Yata

Member
Feb 1, 2019
2,961
Spain
Not surprised in the slightest. I am not playing Royal, but I wonder how far they will fuck things up.
 

eyeball_kid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,227
Isn't this
the same character who wore a long sleeve shirt / turtleneck to hide bruises covered in bandages because she was physically and sexually assaulted to point of attempting to commit suicide?
and she can ONLY be hurt by being physically attacked?

What the fuck Atlus!?

Whoa...what the fuck indeed. That is beyond the pale if true. Absolutely vile. I've been railing against P5's homophobic content on Era since the game came out as some of the worst 1950s gay panic vilifying of gay characters I've seen in a long time, but this would go beyond that into hateful and violent misogyny.

If Hashino wasn't involved in Royal, they have a whole mess of people at Atlus that need sweeping into the gutter. There's something that's become culturally rotten there.
 

Syrenne

Producer of Manifold Garden
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
131
Can confirm the Shiho stuff is 100% true.

Ann has an emotional breakdown when Shiho appears and the other party members basically say to focus and get a grip because she's fake. You have to kill her.

Gonna write a piece about this game like I did with Full Body and it's not looking great for the game so far.
 

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
As always, they'll stop when their userbase stops buying the games over stuff like this. Until they see no harm on their earnings they have no reason to touch anything. Vote with your wallet folks.
 

Soph

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,503
Persona has always been full of predatory and vile questionable behaviour
 

Moara

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,836
I know this isn't going to be a popular stance in this thread, but yeah, I'm gonna buy this game anyway because 80 hours of great game beats out 45 seconds of shitty homophobia. Do we even know this shit is gonna be in the loc, anyway? Maybe Atlus USA will alter it
I wish it was 80 hours of a great game. Instead it's a 100+ hours of a mediocre game with one dimensional characters and a story that goes out of its way to undermine any sort of message and themes the game is attempting to convey. From what I'm seeing of Royal, they seem to just be double downing on the shitty aspects like I expected. P5 is the very definition of all style and no substance.
 
Can confirm the Shiho stuff is 100% true.

Ann has an emotional breakdown when Shiho appears and the other party members basically say to focus and get a grip because she's fake. You have to kill her.

Gonna write a piece about this game like I did with Full Body and it's not looking great for the game so far.
This addition makes no fucking sense to me.

Who looks at the Kamoshida fight and says? You know what this needs? Ann being forced to beat up an approximation of her suicidal fan.

One dumb change was enough to sabotage what was originally the best arc of the game.