Isn't fighting against shadows of your friends and loved ones a pretty standard Persona thing to do? Like, Haru fighting against her dad?
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Persona 5 Royal keeps homophobic scenes of the original, adds even worse ones regarding Shiho
- Thread starter Lant_War
- Start date
Ryuji isn't Yosuke, he's never presented as a homophobic character. In this scene he just rejects the advances of these joke characters, that's the "joke". That's also the reason why this scene doesn't make sense either... it's just a poor joke played out twice.
It's super weird since we also have Lala who's actually a good character.
you and Ryuji go to a night club, he gets picked up by some homosexual pedophiles, it's a joke situation in which you ditch him while the two older men fawn over him. It's tasteless but I don't think it's as offensive as some make it out to be since it's never talked about again
It's not even homophobic, he just rejects those two men. Again, a bad tasteless joke very early 00's anime but I don't think it's pushing any agendas
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they aren't supposed to be trans, just campy.
And no it's not optional. I believe it's right before you meet up with Ohya. (The journalist)
It's not optional, also the guys are not trans. Where did you get that?
oh, then I miss-remembered the scene entirely (that's how insignificant it is), thanks! Editing ASAP
I don't think the point of contention is fighting a loved one so much as most shadows turn into monstrous boss forms instead of same thing but in a bunny bikini. Cognitions work differently than shadows but the adverse reactions are more because of the outfit.
It's a small thing but I like talking to NPCs whenever there's a new event giving them new dialogue so I was pretty irritated that the gay stereotypes stayed around in Shinjuku as NPCs. Had to make an active effort to avoid them after talking to them a couple times cause they're dialogue is all the same poor taste joke.
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Not homophobic? That stereotype is, like, homophobia 101. No one is talking about behavior directed toward the pair, they're talking about how it's a horrible way to portray gay people.
The issue is definitely not how he acts or what he is says its the mannerism and way they are shown in a tasteless way
How is it not? Gayness is shown as laugh-worthy, gross thing in the game that is supposed to make the player laugh. Even if the developers didn't MEANT for it to be read in a homophobic way, it still is, it perpetuates the stereotype that gay men are predatory.
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I'm on my phone so it doesn't let me, but I'll do when I get home.
Press the ... button next to the post, it should let you threadmark it.
Agreed. Joker in Smash is a black mark on the series for me, and seeing him fight alongside characters like Banjo & Mega Man is shameful. Sakurai has never been called out for this, but he deserves some focus here too for amplifying this harmful game.
... Whoa... I mean, the characters themselves do get to call this out, right?
like, if the purpose was to make Kamoshida irredeemably heinous, then okay, I can see it if the characters are also like "yo what in the fuck, she's trying to kill us, but what in the fuck Kamoshida", but if they just let it slide with no comment from anyone, what the fuck atlus
It's one thing to show her like that because that's how Kamoshida sees her, but it's another to have players physically beat up and kill an imitation of a rape victim that was physically abused by her teacher to the point that she attempted suicide.
At the very least it shows how disgustingly tone deaf Atlus is about the very subject they are trying to tackle in their game.
It is absolutely 100% homophobic dude.
It is one of three scenes where they show gay men as pedophilic predators.
It was talked about in the other thread, but you don't actually have to attack Shiho in the battle at all. She'll just leave on her own after a bit, and she's not weak to just physical attacks but weak to all elements.
Does the game make that clear before the battle? Do the characters recognize the fact that you didn't attack her at all compared to killing her and comment on that?
If this is actually the case then they absolutely don't communicate it. In fact, in the game design language of the game, I was convinced I had to kill her. She's right next to the chalice that heals him, and in the same place as other enemies that come to attack you.
You're fine that the only representation gay people get in the Persona franchise are paedophiles and "it was just a phase, I'm cured now" type characters?
You do you, I guess.
See that would be the problem. That the game just throws her at you like she is any other enemy without actually communicating that you can achieve your goal without hurting her.
Sexualizing a rape victim is also a big problem on its own but won't get into that since I don't have the game and can't really comment on how the game portrays her shadow version. If Ann from vanilla P5 is anything to go by though, I don't have a lot of faith in Atlus in that regard either.
so essentially, ( i don't give a fuck how the cognitive realm bullshit works) we have to beat up a victim of physical and sexual abuse?
i am not buying this game
i am not buying this game
The original game was already notorious for undermining its own attempted messages at every turn, so I shouldn't be surprised at this...but it still boggles my mind that not only did they leave all the problematic shit in, they actually added even more.
Fuck this company.
Fuck this company.
I'm a queer guy and a big fan of Persona 5, and I say these scenes do nothing but propagate predatory stereotypes about gay men, especially when they are the only depiction of gay men in the game.
You can say these scenes don't bother you, but would you argue in favor of them adding anything meaningful to the game?
Sega should step in and keep a tighter control over Atlus content... This can end up damaging both brands in the west.
The game literally asks you beforehand to choose between just attacking Kamoshida or stopping Cognitive Shiho from tossing the ball for him to spike:
The lines preceding this also explicitly reaffirm that it is not the real Shiho and imply the protagonist is hesitant about attacking her despite that. My take of this part of the fight was showing that Kamoshida knows that the characters (and hopefully the player) won't want to attack her, and is using that against them.
Maybe they're hearing it secondhand? I dunno. At any rate, it doesn't seem to be any different from the stuff posted in English at a glance. The image in the OP says something like "You, save me! You can probably hear, right!?"
How bizarre is it that even Falcom, one of the more archaic japanese developers, can portray LGBT people better than Atlus?
Will the game punish you gameplay wise if you don't attack Shiho? I mean by adding buffs to the boss fight if you don't stop her. Also will the characters acknowledge the fact that you didn't attack Shiho?The game literally asks you beforehand to choose between just attacking Kamoshida or stopping Cognitive Shiho from tossing the ball for him to spike:
The lines preceding this also explicitly reaffirm that it is not the real Shiho and imply the protagonist is hesitant about attacking her despite that. My take of this part of the fight was showing that Kamoshida knows that the characters (and hopefully the player) won't want to attack her, and is using that against them.
Thank you for providing more details about the scene btw.
I just don't see the point in trying to defend the Shiho scene. It's a tasteless sexualization of a rape victim. You don't need it to understand that Kamoshida is despicable and has to be stopped. It's there to make the player go "ooh, sexy high school girl!" first and enrich the story second. This is some Kill La Kill shit.
Does Shiho even appear in new scenes other than this time? I thought I saw her in winter gear in a new cutscene but does she have any larger presence than she does in the original or was this another cynical attempt for more sexy figurines with no actual regard to the character?
Yes, if she tosses the ball, Kamoshida does his spike attack and this deals almighty damage to all party members. The characters don't have any dialogue if you don't attack her, other than Kamoshida telling her to leave. If you do attack her, Ryuji apologizes to her and pledges to payback Kamoshida.
I'm trying get a clear picture of the scene in question because I don't have the game and (foolishly) still want to give Atlus benefit of the doubt and see if they were actually trying to do anything meaningful with this inclusion and not just sexualize a rape victim.
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Oh well, so the "correct" choice is to basically beat up an imitation of a rape victim who is physically abused. There goes any doubts I had left about that.
I'll be honest, I haven't seen a single person react to that scene in a way that everyone is expecting people to. The game seems to treat it as something that the characters don't want to do, and introduces a conflict between having to understand that the people they see in the cognitive world aren't the people close to them. Was it necessary for the plot of this palace? No. But, I think it's a big stretch to continue to assume that they're using her in this scene as a way to show you a sexy girl
That seems to be the most obvious reading, considering what palaces and cognitions are.
Still, this was never going to go over well