Periods in the pandemic (and beyond)

[Dr. Monkey]

Hey, y'all. How are you handling your cycle in the pandemic? Can't bop out to the gym, not always safe to run depending on where you live, etc., etc., can't just charge out and pick up sundries to deal with cravings and cycling, and then there's fun stuff about the actual period like toilet paper shortages or inability to get supplies.

Menstrual cycles suck at the best of times. They're worse now. Let's talk about it.

I decided to skip with BC and it worked for the first month but the second month my body rebelled and not only did I have massive hormonal fluctuations for two weeks, when I finally started my period, it's been one of the worst I've ever experienced. I expect stress has impacted it. I'm finishing my dissertation and preparing to move (during all this) and it's been a lot. And I haven't been able to find all the regular supplies I usually get and since I thought I'd be skipping, I didn't stock up. I'm glad I had cups.

Speaking of gear, I'd love to hear about Thinx or similar (I have logistics questions!) or whatever anyone uses. I was also thinking of getting a bidet but when I was looking, most were sold out and then I got lazy about trying to keep up, but I'd love to hear about that, too.

 

[PaperSparrow]

Luckily managed to find toilet paper before it hit. Was on my final roll and there was no way that was going to last. The plans for many showers during the day were real. Wish I got on the bidet train before they sold out.

 

[Dr. Monkey]

Toilet paper shortage is a major problem even if you're careful, conservative, whatever. There are definitely times when my body decides everything must go 3-4-23,000 times a day during my period and that's just not something you can control. :/ I'm glad you found some!

 

[R.P. McMurphy]

I've had nexplanon for 5 years and hadn't had a single period since 2014, but right as everything started going down, I got two periods within a month. Could have been a combination of stress and starting a new medication, but both my psychiatrist and my gynecologist assured me that the medication shouldn't have had an impact.

The timing couldn't have been worse since I didnt have many feminine products in the house (luckily had a few pads from a LEEP procedure from 2 years ago), and one side effect of my period is needing to use the bathroom 800 times a day like I I struggling with IBS again. Terrible time to have a TP shortage but we managed to get some!

Right now I am in new territory and not sure if this will be my new "normal," but I am stocked up on pads just in case, and I'm definitely considering cups if this is something that becomes a regular occurence again.

Speaking of thinx, a previous coworker swore by them and she said that even on heavy flow days, she felt comfortable wearing them. She also said that the smell didnt linger after a good wash.


ETA: I appreciate this post and the normalization of bodily functions. I wish I had something like this when I was struggling as a teen.

 

[Zuly]

I'm pretty fortunate to have switched to the menstrual cup sometime last year. I still keep a box of emergency tampons around just in case. I do have run out of liners and I need them when I'm spotting.

 

[orlock]

not someone who personally experiences them, but my partner and i planned kind of early on and stocked up on a bunch of necessary supplies and im "lucky" enough to have a part time job stocking a local grocery store overnight so about once a week i pick up an extra pack of toilet paper or box of tampons or liners before the hordes descend. also, hot water availability is slightly shitty in my building (an older house renovated into apartments) so ill take less showers (neither of us leave the house except myself for work, and i do my grocery shopping a half-hour before the store opens to customers) and save that hot water for them whether its for an extra shower or a bath.

are bidets worthwhile? ive been thinking about picking one up whenever the chance presents itself, but i wonder if its really worth it in the end or isnt something that can wait for a few months down the line.

 

[ShyMel]

I use a cup primarily and reusable menstrual underwear occasionally. I am just glad I got the Paragard inserted and my previous bc removed before this all happened. I do not think I could handle the constant spotting I had before and prefer five days of slightly more pain.

 

[Charlotte Lucas]

This was really the worse time to get off BC especially since I live alone. The first couple of days of my period were worse than usual, got chocolate cravings, and was horny as fuck afterwards.

Upside is I don't have to feel bad about going to the bathroom almost every hour working from home since I experience heavy flow and blood clots the first few days of my cycle.

I stocked up on pads and tampons so I'm good for now. If worse comes to worse, I figured I can go old fashion and use a towel. I heard about Thinx, but never used them since I'm paranoid about blood leaking and they don't look super secure to me. Though, this might be the best time to try since I'm not going anywhere.

 

[Dr. Monkey]

I love cups BUT I will offer a caution that removing them can take some getting used to or you leave behind what looks like a murder scene. I have definitely had some mishaps. I have a Diva cup and soft and flex cups, but I think I want to replace my Diva with something else because it doesn't get a good seal half the time - just something about my body. I just haven't gotten around to it. I did some research a while back, though. Cups are so expensive if you're not sure if one will work for you - but if it does, it saves SO much money over tampons or something.

So my question with menstrual underwear is... does it absorb? Like logistically how's that work? Listen, I'm prone to clots and all kinds of solids and I'm wary of just letting stuff hang out.

ETA: I appreciate this post and the normalization of bodily functions. I wish I had something like this when I was struggling as a teen.

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Same. I think it's really important. It's so ridiculous that lots of people - including people who have periods! - don't really understand this incredibly common bodily function so let's just talk about it like the normal thing it is.

 

[Dr. Monkey]

Upside is I don't have to feel bad about going to the bathroom almost every hour working from home since I experience heavy flow and blood clots the first few days of my cycle.

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SAME. I've been on research fellowship so I've been working from home all this academic year actually and it's been such a boon, because that first couple of days I'm like the elevator scene in the Shining, man, just chunkier. Shit is serious. But if you're at home it's fine, it's whatever, just annoying.

 

[dreams]

I've had nexplanon for 5 years and hadn't had a single period since 2014, but right as everything started going down, I got two periods within a month. Could have been a combination of stress and starting a new medication, but both my psychiatrist and my gynecologist assured me that the medication shouldn't have had an impact.

The timing couldn't have been worse since I didnt have many feminine products in the house (luckily had a few pads from a LEEP procedure from 2 years ago), and one side effect of my period is needing to use the bathroom 800 times a day like I I struggling with IBS again. Terrible time to have a TP shortage but we managed to get some!

Right now I am in new territory and not sure if this will be my new "normal," but I am stocked up on pads just in case, and I'm definitely considering cups if this is something that becomes a regular occurence again.

Speaking of thinx, a previous coworker swore by them and she said that even on heavy flow days, she felt comfortable wearing them. She also said that the smell didnt linger after a good wash.


ETA: I appreciate this post and the normalization of bodily functions. I wish I had something like this when I was struggling as a teen.

Click to shrink...

I'm also on nexplanon, and my first one was amazing. No period whatsoever. In the beginning of my second one, I started having spotting all the time and now I'm like never not spotting. I'll have a 2 week period with 2 weeks of minimal spotting (maybe 2 or so days with absolutely nothing) and then back to a 2 week period. It's driving me insane. I'm definitely going to look into getting maybe an IUD after things reopen because I cannot handle this. I've read that it can be a thing for people with second round nexplanon so yay :/ I hope it goes away for you, though. it's really been fucking with my mood.

THANKFULLY I tried out the Saalt cup (sensitive/normal) right before this all hit and I've been loving it. I can't recommend trying out a menstrual cup enough. It's so nice to only have to change 2x per day. It is somewhat of a learning curve in the beginning to make sure that it's actually in and secure, but once it's actually in correctly, I can't feel it at all.

 

[Deleted member 5086]

I was worried about running out of supplies during the panic buying period (which thankfully seems to have calmed down now), and got enough supplies to last a couple of months.

The really annoying thing though was that due to the theory that ibuprofen and aspirin might be harmful to take if you have COVID-19, the paracetamol has been completely out of stock whenever I've checked any supermarket, which is what I usually take for menstrual cramps (which can be very severe for me, I got sent home from school one time because they were so bad). So I got stuck having to buy really overpriced products specifically for menstrual cramps or for the flu, or migraines etc. Normally I only have to pay like... 40p or something for a pack of paracetamol.

I think being stuck at home, and not being as active as I usually am, really made the cramps a lot worse during my last cycle, too. :( So I'm definitely going to try exercising more at home going forward.

 

[R.P. McMurphy]

For those who use cups, do you notice any displacement issues? My biggest gripe with tampons (and why I stopped using them) is no matter how well they were inserted, a sudden cough, sneeze, or laugh would dislodge it and make it incredibly uncomfortable if I didn't immediately change it. I would imagine cups would be the same, but most of the people I know who use them didn't have the same issue I had with tampons.

I'm also on nexplanon, and my first one was amazing. No period whatsoever. In the beginning of my second one, I started having spotting all the time and now I'm like never not spotting. I'll have a 2 week period with 2 weeks of minimal spotting (maybe 2 or so days with absolutely nothing) and then back to a 2 week period. It's driving me insane. I'm definitely going to look into getting maybe an IUD after things reopen because I cannot handle this. I've read that it can be a thing for people with second round nexplanon so yay :/ I hope it goes away for you, though. it's really been fucking with my mood.

THANKFULLY I tried out the Saalt cup (sensitive/normal) right before this all hit and I've been loving it. I can't recommend trying out a menstrual cup enough. It's so nice to only have to change 2x per day. It is somewhat of a learning curve in the beginning to make sure that it's actually in and secure, but once it's actually in correctly, I can't feel it at all.

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Yeah, I'm on the end of my second one and it is definitely frustrating. I was initially worried that it was implantation bleeding but the flow ended up being much heavier. When I called my gyno, she said that it is incredibly common to have periods and spotting after several years of nothing. I'm sorry to hear about your experience though, and I definitely get considering a new BC. I would just like to chuck hormonal BC altogether because it fucks with my mood and sex drive, but right now the pros outweigh the cons so I'm not ready to change just yet.

 

[Dr. Monkey]

THANKFULLY I tried out the Saalt cup (sensitive/normal) right before this all hit and I've been loving it. I can't recommend trying out a menstrual cup enough. It's so nice to only have to change 2x per day. It is somewhat of a learning curve in the beginning to make sure that it's actually in and secure, but once it's actually in correctly, I can't feel it at all.

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ahhh, that's the one I was thinking of getting - I did a quiz thing that matched you with cups and this one was highest rated for me.

 

[Zuly]

For those who use cups, do you notice any displacement issues? My biggest gripe with tampons (and why I stopped using them) is no matter how well they were inserted, a sudden cough, sneeze, or laugh would dislodge it and make it incredibly uncomfortable if I didn't immediately change it. I would imagine cups would be the same, but most of the people I know who use them didn't have the same issue I had with tampons.

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To be frank, I could be having the wildest bowel movements on the toilet with my cup inside, and nothing will move but it just be that mine is a really good fit. It takes a lot of research for find the perfect cup for you. I did use Put a Cup In It's quiz guide to get myself started on the journey towards using cups.

 

[Patsy]

I've always had heavy periods that lasted for sometimes two weeks (probably mostly due to PCOS), but they've been the worst they ever were since.. february? Last month I ended up in the hospital for infusions numerous times & some docs even kept thinking I was having Corona because of the fever I got even though I told them this always happens during bad period months. Was honestly hell, because it wouldn't go down for a full week either. This month is kinda fucked too? Thought it ended a few days ago, but then got hit with a super heavy flow & bad cramps out of nowhere again & am still struggling with it 5 days in after already struggling for over a week before that. ;w;

Honestly? I'm super lucky that I'm always stocked up for multiple months for pads & tampons at home I don't need to worry about changing every hour even when using things for the heaviest flows, because nobody will judge me for it. Still struggle with it like almost 13 years in now, because seeing my own blood makes me faint super fast, but oh well, I'm surviving! :3

As someone with really heavy periods I won't trust menstrual underwear like Thinx to be safe for more than half an hour at most? It's maybe something I'd wear during a run, but not the whole day. Good pads absorb stuff pretty well even during the heaviest days & only get wet if you're at a point where you need to change them, but with thin underwear I wouldn't feel secure at all? Especially if it doesn't aborb clots & all & I can't think of much worse than just having blood everywhere… or cleaning underwear full of my own blood lmao

 

[Dr. Monkey]

Last night I had a flex cup but I've found sometimes cups leak at night (at least those disk style cups can...), so I had a pad, too. Safe, right? Nah. Leaked right above and below the pad, so it got my underwear regardless. -.- Design failure.

 

[dreams]

For those who use cups, do you notice any displacement issues? My biggest gripe with tampons (and why I stopped using them) is no matter how well they were inserted, a sudden cough, sneeze, or laugh would dislodge it and make it incredibly uncomfortable if I didn't immediately change it. I would imagine cups would be the same, but most of the people I know who use them didn't have the same issue I had with tampons.



Yeah, I'm on the end of my second one and it is definitely frustrating. I was initially worried that it was implantation bleeding but the flow ended up being much heavier. When I called my gyno, she said that it is incredibly common to have periods and spotting after several years of nothing. I'm sorry to hear about your experience though, and I definitely get considering a new BC. I would just like to chuck hormonal BC altogether because it fucks with my mood and sex drive, but right now the pros outweigh the cons so I'm not ready to change just yet.

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Yeah, I'm ready to go off hormonal as well. I've noticed my depression has gotten much worse as well. My mood is all over the place and I have so many more "bad" days it seems.

Also re the first part, Like Zuly said above, I could push as hard as I wanted while taking a poop and it would not budge. It's amazing, because I've also had that problem with tampons migrating out as well. Basically, I'd get super annoyed if I put a tampon in and then like 10 mins later I had to go poop, because inevitably it would start to slide out and I'd have to mess around with pushing it back in (if that worked) or changing it.

ahhh, that's the one I was thinking of getting - I did a quiz thing that matched you with cups and this one was highest rated for me.

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Same! I was recommended the regular Saalt cup, but my sister got that one and says she loves it, but she can still feel it sometimes. So I figured I'd try the sensitive version and it's amazing! I super recommend it!

 

[Fiction]

I feel for you guys so much, I can't even imagine what my super heavy nightmare periods would have been like during a pandemic and a toliet paper shortage. I'm lucky I had a hysterectomy several years ago.

I wonder if bidets can help with that? I recently got one but I imagine it might be weird using one during a period.

 

[Nell]

I've had a bidet for 5 years and would never go back. I use a lot less toilet paper and fell a lot cleaner during my period.

I'm off the pill now since my pharmacist is only giving 30 days work of prescriptions at a time and I don't want to pay the dispensing fee every month.

 

[Dr. Monkey]

I'm getting my BC through Nurx and it's amazing. I did the consultation once and they just ship every month.

 

[Reeks]

Is it pathetic to admit that I get my tampons from work? They have the good kind and always stocked to the brim. I'm going to have to buy some today for the first time in a long time...

I've had a bidet for 5 years and would never go back. I use a lot less toilet paper and fell a lot cleaner during my period.

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You just blew my mind. I never though about this. Bidet added to the list of things I want when this whole adulting thing finally pays off.

 

[Reeks]

I've had a bidet for 5 years and would never go back. I use a lot less toilet paper and fell a lot cleaner during my period.

I'm off the pill now since my pharmacist is only giving 30 days work of prescriptions at a time and I don't want to pay the dispensing fee every month.

Click to shrink...

Edit:

Y'all are convincing me to get a cup. Diva and Saalt seem to be the ones most people use, yah? Do I need to wear a pad, too, or is a panty-liner okay? I have a moderate flow with a day or two of heavy bleeding and clotting. I ask because pads make me chafe like a mofo and I just absolutely hate them.

(Side annectdote: My mom used to only buy me mattresses because I had an insane flow and she said tampons would pop my cherry, wtf... and I started my period at 8...)

 

[Pink Tape]

I am so glad that the pads I use aren't being hoarded lemme tell y'all that. It's been pretty normal so far; this one had some spotting and premature cramps before the actual storm which sucked but I dealt with it ok. Though I did leak on my bed sheets this time which sucked -_-

I've also felt more.. emotional this time around. I wonder if it's just general symptoms and/or due to recent events idk.

 

[R.P. McMurphy]

To be frank, I could be having the wildest bowel movements on the toilet with my cup inside, and nothing will move but it just be that mine is a really good fit. It takes a lot of research for find the perfect cup for you. I did use Put a Cup In It's quiz guide to get myself started on the journey towards using cups.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I'm ready to go off hormonal as well. I've noticed my depression has gotten much worse as well. My mood is all over the place and I have so many more "bad" days it seems.

Also re the first part, Like Zuly said above, I could push as hard as I wanted while taking a poop and it would not budge. It's amazing, because I've also had that problem with tampons migrating out as well. Basically, I'd get super annoyed if I put a tampon in and then like 10 mins later I had to go poop, because inevitably it would start to slide out and I'd have to mess around with pushing it back in (if that worked) or changing it.

Same! I was recommended the regular Saalt cup, but my sister got that one and says she loves it, but she can still feel it sometimes. So I figured I'd try the sensitive version and it's amazing! I super recommend it!

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Thank you both! Should I keep getting my period I will give one a shot. It The quiz recommended the Juju model 4. I guess this also goes to show how misinformed I was about the cup--I never realized how many different types and sizes there were.

 

[Studge]

Hey, y'all. How are you handling your cycle in the pandemic? Can't bop out to the gym, not always safe to run depending on where you live, etc., etc., can't just charge out and pick up sundries to deal with cravings and cycling, and then there's fun stuff about the actual period like toilet paper shortages or inability to get supplies.

Menstrual cycles suck at the best of times. They're worse now. Let's talk about it.

I decided to skip with BC and it worked for the first month but the second month my body rebelled and not only did I have massive hormonal fluctuations for two weeks, when I finally started my period, it's been one of the worst I've ever experienced. I expect stress has impacted it. I'm finishing my dissertation and preparing to move (during all this) and it's been a lot. And I haven't been able to find all the regular supplies I usually get and since I thought I'd be skipping, I didn't stock up. I'm glad I had cups.

Speaking of gear, I'd love to hear about Thinx or similar (I have logistics questions!) or whatever anyone uses. I was also thinking of getting a bidet but when I was looking, most were sold out and then I got lazy about trying to keep up, but I'd love to hear about that, too.

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My wife has three pairs of Thinx in various styles and she has found them very helpful. I asked her about them and I'll paraphrase what she told me:

- They feel like wearing a pad so that's something to consider if that feeling is fine for you.
- If she wears them during the day she also wears a tampon and the panties are just for leaks because changing a tampon is way easier than changing underwear, which she would have to do with her flow.
- At night she wears them alone which is nice because tampons can be irritating for her since childbirth.
- They are machine washable but she lets them soak in the sink and/or lays them on the floor when I take a shower to get the blood out before hand.

 

[Dr. Monkey]

I think I might try some thinx or similar, maybe for light days. I was on the dense and replies are pushing me over. Probably go ahead and get a Saalt cup, too.

Now if I could just find a bidet.

 

[Eleriu]

Edit:

Y'all are convincing me to get a cup. Diva and Saalt seem to be the ones most people use, yah? Do I need to wear a pad, too, or is a panty-liner okay? I have a moderate flow with a day or two of heavy bleeding and clotting. I ask because pads make me chafe like a mofo and I just absolutely hate them.

(Side annectdote: My mom used to only buy me mattresses because I had an insane flow and she said tampons would pop my cherry, wtf... and I started my period at 8...)

Click to shrink...

I don't use a cup, but for pads I very much highly recommend getting the Always flex foam brand that they make. As the name states they're made from a foam material that's lightweight and is very absorbent, instead of whatever material the regular pads use that make them suck. They're super comfy (it feels like you're not wearing anything) and you'll never chafe again.

 

[Studge]

So my question with menstrual underwear is... does it absorb? Like logistically how's that work? Listen, I'm prone to clots and all kinds of solids and I'm wary of just letting stuff hang out.

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They do absorb like a pad but it's a thinner foam type stuff that holds it in better, so they say. I've squeezed my wife's out before and they can hold a decent amount of liquid but IDK about solids. Best guess I have is that you might find them most useful at night for the liquid when gravity isn't pulling the larger stuff down and out of you as much. They can catch anything that does come out and then are reusable so the mess doesn't get anywhere else.

I don't use a cup, but for pads I very much highly recommend getting the Always flex foam brand that they make. As the name states they're made from a foam material that's lightweight and is very absorbent, instead of whatever material the regular pads use that make them suck. They're super comfy (it feels like you're not wearing anything) and you'll never chafe again.

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I've seen those advertised and I think that foam is similar or maybe the same stuff that's in the Thinx underwear.

 

[pokeystaples]

I was suuuuper lucky and stocked up on tampons and pads for a few months before things hit the fan. Downside is now me and my wife are on the same schedule and while hers was once a whisper it has become a flood. Hoping for good luck at the shops this weekend.

Y'all have me super interested in the cup.

 

[Charlotte Lucas]

Y'all have me super interested in the cup.

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Yeah, seriously. Thinking about getting Thinx and a bidet too

 

[Eleriu]

I've seen those advertised and I think that foam is similar or maybe the same stuff that's in the Thinx underwear.

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I've only now heard of Thinx from this thread and those seem nice. Not sure what they use though could be something similar to the foam pads.

 

[ShyMel]

My only issue with the cup is that I cannot sleep on my stomach anymore. Doing so was not pleasant to wake up to. 😅 I only use the under 35/no kids Diva Cup so I am sure if you get a more custom one, that would not be an issue.

 

[Lady Catherine de Bourgh]

after the birth of my second child I got an IUD. Haven't had a period in years. I didn't mind the blood and inconvenience to much, but the whole emotional cycle is draining. Moods all over the place all the time. Ugh

 

[Dr. Monkey]

I considered an IUD but I got pregnant twice while using various forms of birth control so the small risk of ectopic pregnancy scares me a bit since my body is apparently very determined toward fertility. But they seem SO convenient.

 

[Dr. Monkey]

Oh! We talked about cups and period underpants - anyone invested in reusable pads? I'm thinking about that, too. I think I'm just hella angry after a lifetime of one-use supplies generating tons of waste.

 

[Morrigan]

I'm fine. Had mine just a few days ago, but I was already decently stocked, fortunately.

Tried cups a few years ago but I got annoyed at them after a while. They're far "greener" than pads though, admittedly.

The really annoying thing though was that due to the theory that ibuprofen and aspirin might be harmful to take if you have COVID-19,

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Well shit, I am allergic to paracetamol... if I get COVID-19 I'm so fucked >.<

 

[Dr. Monkey]

I believe the ibuprofen thing ended up not true but you should look into it.

 

[Morrigan]

I believe the ibuprofen thing ended up not true but you should look into it.

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I hope so :3

Well, I'll hope to not get the damn virus first, of course XD

 

[PaperSparrow]

Oh! We talked about cups and period underpants - anyone invested in reusable pads? I'm thinking about that, too. I think I'm just hella angry after a lifetime of one-use supplies generating tons of waste.

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Yeah, I use them. I have a heavy flow, so I went through an insane amount of tampons and pads before. Feels really nice to just wash the reusables instead of having a trash full of blood. :x

I use cups too, but I don't think I found the right size yet, always leaks a non insignificant amount.

 

[Empress of ice cream]

xxx

 

[Dr. Monkey]

It is day eight and I am still going. cry forever.

Clue keeps telling me it's the last day and Clue keeps being wrong. Do y'all use apps to track?

 

[Seirith]

I have Mirena IUD and haven't had a period in like 15 years since I had my first one inserted., I love it. I am due for a new one in May and am hoping my appointment for it doesn't get cancelled.

 

[Kia Purity]

On my current cycle and I'm just feeling a lot of fatigue (doesn't help that my sleeping schedule is so royally screwed up) -- but I did manage to stock up on pads beforehand so I'm good. The only problem is that I don't have a steady supply of vitamin b12 (red meat version) to help me cope with this period hell

 

[Zuly]

It is day eight and I am still going. cry forever.

Clue keeps telling me it's the last day and Clue keeps being wrong. Do y'all use apps to track?

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I use Clue as well but my menstrual cycle has always been a mess so I just keep track it so I have data for my doc. Longest I've gone without a period was eight months w/o taking anything. It was just gone, and sometimes it just goes on for weeks on end.

 

[Deleted member 5086]

It is day eight and I am still going. cry forever.

Clue keeps telling me it's the last day and Clue keeps being wrong. Do y'all use apps to track?

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I use Flo. Not sure how I stumbled across it, but it's been okay for me. Usually okay, maybe a day off on the start.

 

[Dr. Monkey]

Clue's usually really spot on, just everything's out of whack right now.

 

[Azem]

I've never been good at tracking properly and can't be bothered with apps. I just wait for my appetite to go way up and then I know it's about a week away.

Speaking of which, I'm hungry.

 

[empressdonna]

Clue keeps telling me it's the last day and Clue keeps being wrong. Do y'all use apps to track?

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:( This is my usual experience with clue haha. Usually, I start days before or after the predictions.

I use Clue, the Samsung health app and https://www.mymonthlycycles.com/home.jsp to try and track because of how irregular I am :(.

 

[Charlotte Lucas]

It is day eight and I am still going. cry forever.

Clue keeps telling me it's the last day and Clue keeps being wrong. Do y'all use apps to track?

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I use My Calendar on android. Probably need to find another one since it hasn't been accurate for a while now.