Basically the biggest opposition to progressive policies is racist white people who've grown up in racially isolated places. How do we fix this?
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People using food banks didn't know who to vote. They didn't trust Corbyn.
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While nationalised broadband was arguably stupid to try and make a deal of in this manifesto/election, us Scots are continually politely reminding the English that they can simply look north in the Union and see free education, prescriptions and things like the Nurses bursary being retained.
I also politely say the same thing to Americans ranting like fucking nutjobs that free healthcare for all is Communism to look at most of Europe.
There comes a point where it's not simply an ideological battle over potential, but people have literal facts/nations to look to, that show them things a politician might be advocating can be done and have been done successfully.
If voters won't listen in such cases or still run about their garden screaming "Red scare" and "Communism" like drugged up nutters, the blame has to lie on them at this point, not finger-wagging those who want a better and fairer country.
Centrists trying to stand in the way of progress has to be fought now, not a cup of tea poured to "listen to their fears", which usually amount to nothing more productive than "Fuck poor people getting help, what about my taxes? Do you expect me to contribute towards education for all? This is America, I am what I earn, fuck you, I have mine, everyone else just needs to work harder".
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If you're going to go with the worldview of "well, it's not anyone's fault they voted Tory..." I mean, where do you even go from there? Do you try and take down democracy?
The British media did their job well. Gonna be plenty of blood to go on the hands of all those responsible in the years to come.
The only way you'll see the balance redressed is if there is a huge left wing newspaper magnate who is able to bread the right wing grip on the U.K. The way Murdoch did this was by making the Sun 10p back in the 90s and extending their reach over time.
If someone holds a gun to your head, they fumble with it and you pick it up and hand it back to them, at some point you aren't blameless that the situation continues the way it was going.
Labor wasn't even against Brexit anymore.
Which is completely beyond me.
I can't imagine being in that position, (although in the late seventies I remember how bad it was for us as a poor family with no jobs), and not researching which party to vote for to help improve my life. Just ask questions, go to the library, think about how you ended up in this position, who was in government.
Let me introduce you to the great Liberal strategy to replace Corbynism. We just have to hold our nose while our pragmatic allies talk about how we're such a drain on the economy because white people need to be coddled.
...because we're now living in the same Tory hell hole and we tried to warn them?
They do not have my sympathy, at all. That doesn't mean I won't try again.
This is a true tragedy.
I hope upon hope that one day these media barons see everything they cling so tightly to turn to ash in their hands.
I hope upon hope that one day these media barons see everything they cling so tightly to turn to ash in their hands.
I try and live with love and compassion in my heart but it is extremely difficult to see these people (especially the woman running the food bank) say they don't know who to vote for but are fed up of their situation. The media has turned this election into a popularity contest, rather than a policy or party one and people have lost sight that it is Tory austerity measures which has helped put them in their current position. I honestly don't know how people don't see it. You can only blame the media so much. This election will tear the country apart
As always, working class only means white.
From a 2017 report on poverty in the UK:
From a 2018 JRF report:
And yet, those groups, despite being far poorer than white and Indian households , still overwhelmingly reject the Tory party. (About 5% of the Pakistani/Bangladeshi community vote Tory. Black Caribbean community is also single digits for Tory voting %)
So if it's not income, or class, or education then what could it be that makes all these white people vote Tory...
Thanks for doing the work I was too lazy to, the results were what I was expecting. Hopefully those trying to defend bigots as being poor sods taken advantage of pull their heads out their ass.
As always, working class only means white.
From a 2017 report on poverty in the UK:
From a 2018 JRF report:
And yet, those groups, despite being far poorer than white and Indian households , still overwhelmingly reject the Tory party. (About 5% of the Pakistani/Bangladeshi community vote Tory. Black Caribbean community is also single digits for Tory voting %)
So if it's not income, or class, or education then what could it be that makes all these white people vote Tory...
Well said. As someone from a Black African migrant background myself, I know this too well. Even when my parents were not fully fluent in English, they somehow knew better than to ever vote for the Tories. Because they knew that no matter what, that would be shooting themselves in the foot. This is despite them also having to struggle with much more, being ethnic minorities, religious minorities and refugees from a war torn country.
The fact of the matter is that a certain subset of the country are willing to shoot themselves in the foot if it means those scary foreigners will also be screwed over in the process. At some point you have to stop giving racists a pass because they're poor. Poor minorities are somehow not 'misinformed' despite having even more disadvantages. Go figure.
I'd love to see stats on what percentage of white folk went labour to tory this election.
People that keep solely hounding on Corbyn as the sole reason for the loss can only see it from one perspective. As if these voters who decided that Boris was acceptable were somehow abandoned.
There was only ever going to be one thing and one thing only that would have stopped people voting for Boris and that's if he suddenly said Brexit is cancelled.
They voted for him because they want that shit done because they either hate foreigners or don't give a single fuck about them.
Which is why i -struggle- to garner any kind of sympathy for them.
People that keep solely hounding on Corbyn as the sole reason for the loss can only see it from one perspective. As if these voters who decided that Boris was acceptable were somehow abandoned.
There was only ever going to be one thing and one thing only that would have stopped people voting for Boris and that's if he suddenly said Brexit is cancelled.
They voted for him because they want that shit done because they either hate foreigners or don't give a single fuck about them.
Which is why i -struggle- to garner any kind of sympathy for them.
I am not saying that. I am saying people often overegg the agency part. People's actions are much more shaped by context than often the story they tell about themselves implies. Sure the are homeless people who are in general assholes, because of course nobody is just a homeless person, just the same as no one is just a home owner. People are multiples. Still, if people are very much voting against their own interests, the important question to ask is why? Not simply devolve in a blame game. Of course there is responsibility involved, but there is also more than that. I would always say with greater means and power comes greater responsibility.
I understand what you're saying, however blaming voters just seems like almost a cop out, especially when I'm not advocating for "finger wagging", I'm advocating for progressive movements to be more introspective and to question some of the base political assumptions which we're making.
I care about making the society I live in the most progressive that it can be. I can't radically change the voting population at large to make them want what I want, that's not productive to me, however I can advocate for progressive communities that I'm a part of (both online and offline) to be a little more introspective in ways which might make us more effective.
Yeah, fuck that shit. You're right though, this is deffo going to happen.
These places need to change. The all white rural town is poisonous and needs to change.
Democracy needs a free press to work. In the UK we don't have a free press, we have an oligarchical press and so long as this exists, the poor will suffer.
The problem with the "these people were taken advantage of/manipulated into voting against their interests" school of thought is that it doesn't really grapple with the possibility that when people vote conservative, they actually aren't being manipulated and are in fact making a conscious choice to hurt themselves as long as it means hurting immigrants and non-white people more. This is exactly what happened with Trump and will happen again in 2020. Despite real economic pain being inflicted on them by Trump's trade policies -- *actual economic anxiety* precisely because of the man they voted -- many midwestern, working-class whites will vote for Trump again next year because it means building the wall and deporting immigrants. And it seems especially baffling to me that anyone would be ignorant about what a vote for Tories would mean for their own quality of life given that the UK has a Tory government for years already.
A part of me feels sorry for them, they're obviously being manipulated and the manipulators will just as obviously not repay their favour, but then the other 99% of me considers their motivations to be so easily manipulated against their own interests and I'm like sod it. Can't be sympathetic as a result.
I cant help myself reading all these threads and articles, its like watching a car crash in hyperslow motion.
I myself had a row with my mum, who uses the NHS more than most and is arguably classed as "poor" after she said to me she voted tory because "he said he would get brexit done" and that "we arnt a rich country so cant afford all the labour policys".
"I dont need free wifi in ten years" was also said.
Was absolutely blown away. She really had gobbled up all the fucking sky news lies.
We have like the 7th or something highest GDP in the world, we dont tax mega corporations or people who earn absurdly more money, companys which should be national make profits and pay their boards millions in bonuses. Like CMON ON
I myself had a row with my mum, who uses the NHS more than most and is arguably classed as "poor" after she said to me she voted tory because "he said he would get brexit done" and that "we arnt a rich country so cant afford all the labour policys".
"I dont need free wifi in ten years" was also said.
Was absolutely blown away. She really had gobbled up all the fucking sky news lies.
We have like the 7th or something highest GDP in the world, we dont tax mega corporations or people who earn absurdly more money, companys which should be national make profits and pay their boards millions in bonuses. Like CMON ON
What I don't understand is their social workers, the food bank employees, etc. Why aren't they cussing tories every day and advertising for labour?
Where did the article mention or even hint at this? How has this gone from them being idiots to them being racist idiots? We don't know their reasons for voting, whoever they voted for.
I posted stats about UK poverty and ethnicity in this thread.
Why don't minority voters that are unemployed or living in poverty vote Tory? Why is an immigrant with less education, for whom English isn't a first language, not misled in the same way their white counterpart is?
Gee I wonder why...
How much more do these people need to be coddled before they are no longer "taken advantage of?" They have brains, they can use them.
Hmmmm.
Hmmmmmmmmmm.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
When I ask my European friends to describe us — Americans, Brits, who I'll call Anglo-Americans in this essay — they shake their heads gently. And over and over, three themes emerge. They say we're a little thoughtless. They say we're selfish and arrogant. And they say that we're cruel and brutal.
I can't help but think there's more than a grain of truth. That they're being kind. Anglo-American society is now the world's preeminent example of willful self-destruction. It's jaw-dropping folly and stupidity is breathtaking to the rest of the world.
The hard truth is this. America and Britain aren't just collapsing by the day…they aren't even just choosing to collapse by the day. They're entering a death spiral, from which there's probably no return. Yes, really. Simple economics dictate that, just like they did for the Soviet Union — and I'll come to them.
Yup. And for a deeper dive on why, I strongly recommend David Andress' Cultural Dementia. Great read.
This shit has hit everyone. I spent last week with a doctor. She voted for remain but said that everything would be fine with brexit and the EU needed to sort stuff out like straight bananas. I really despair.
Talking to people I know before the election it was clear how effective the hatchet job had been.
Talking to people I know before the election it was clear how effective the hatchet job had been.
we absolutely fucked ourselves over by calling us 'great' britain, giving xenophobic nationalists some kind of ego rush that we are an infallible country of chosen people that 1) can hold out on our own like during the height of the empire and 2) have some kind of protected 'culture' that can't possibly ever include people of colour
hence brexit
As someone who laments the current state of Western society, I find the hyperbole in the article ridiculous:
Right there we see the hyperbole that seeks to compare two vastly different situations as equal, even despite him trying to stave off that this is an overstatement. The Soviet Union literally could no longer provide basic services to its citizens. It literally could not provide food. Literally you had to wait in line for moldy bread. He then switches to America stating "decent food is unavailable in vast swatches of the country." That is NOT the same. First, please classify what is "decent" food? Vegetables? High quality beef? Food is plentiful in America, our poor are not starving. Are they eating nutritiously? No, but neither are a great majority of Americans. Healthy food is available and affordable, but capitalism, marketing, and ease has made junk food easier to palate. People are not dying from hunger, they are dying from a capitalist system that has sold them sugar water in replace of actual water.
Then there's the vision of diabetes patines begging on the street for insulin. Like, come on that is not what is going on. The economy is America is at an all time great. This is FAAARRRR from the Soviet Union failing to provide basic necessities to its people. What instead we face is a greater separation between the haves and the have nots. Everyone has a job, but nobody has gotten a raise in 30 years while corporations continue to make record profits. Everyone having a job means everyone also likely has some form of healthcare, but the quality and coverage differs vastly based on your income level. Your basic healthcare needs are covered, but it's those that have serious medical needs who are hurting.
Honestly, the problem here is that things are too fine to shake the people into wishing for greater change. This is the reason Biden remains popular. When the economy keeps trucking along fine and everyone has a job, it's hard to convince people that you need to overhaul the system. They're concerned with keeping what they've already got. The last time this country actually had breadlines, we instituted the greatest socialist takeover of the country that was a beautiful sight to see. But, it took a Great Depression before people finally decided that maybe, just maybe the government can provide services to help people instead of asking for a tax cut every year.
Chicken and egg, and all that, but I always feel that Liverpool and its lack of The fucking Sun is an interesting data point.
Their resistance to change is a large part of what makes them poisonous, though :/
I will never get people who are poor and vote Tory or GOP.
It is SO fucking EASY. Those two parties are designed to make more money for corporations and rich people. They tack on "values" because they need some headline causes to distract the voters they are hurting the most from that very fact.
It is SO fucking EASY. Those two parties are designed to make more money for corporations and rich people. They tack on "values" because they need some headline causes to distract the voters they are hurting the most from that very fact.
Uh, Scotland's demographics
The English can't just get off the hook by going "there's too many white people".
Scotland hasn't returned a Conservative majority to Westminster since like 1955 or something https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Scotland
Classism has destroyed England for generations and the Monarchy and Queen bullshit has played a massive role. The monarchy needs to be abolished. The Queen and Royal family have to go. Not to mention all of this coming off the back of a history of colonialism. So much of the culture in the UK, but predominantly England, is steeped in relishing stamping your boot on those you feel are weaker or less well off as yourself.
That's ramped up to over 9,000 with the way the British press support the poverty Olympics and being derogatory to anyone on benefits/disabled.
Minorities coming into England to live might be less enriched by the bullshit of the UK to start with, but I'm sorry to say sometimes 3rd/4th+ generations of minorities who live in England fall to the wayside of all of the above, and if you watch an episode of BBCQT you can often see the BBC having handpicked black or minority audience members who scream about Brexit and how voting Conservative protects them/makes them richer.
There's multiple cultural issues going on in England, with very deep roots. Often those voting Conservative will do it irrespective of their own poverty/issues because the British way is voting for the party that will make those even poorer than you suffer more. It gives you a false sense of thinking you're actually upper-class simply because you vote Conservative. Look at the polls in England that report people feel Corbyn was more like them/is more trustworthy, but Boris was more prime ministerial. Why? He's a well-educated rich posh Eton boy. Classism.
England will never improve until the rampant classism is tackled, and as a Scot, fuck hanging around any longer for that day. We need to be independent, the UK, let alone the Royal Family, needs to be abolished.
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An interesting and well-articulated point of view: https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/maajid-nawaz/listeners-maajid-nawaz-caller-labour-leader/
Oh I don't doubt that there is racism in the mix, but you ask the question at the end of that post, what is it that makes these poor white people vote tory when poor POC people don't, and it implies it's because of racism, as if they couldn't be voting for other reasons. Which they absolutely could be doing.
What I get from this article is that it highlights just how uneducated politically the population can be, and that's what I find infuriating. It reminded me of the brexit vote, and how someone I worked with at the time decided to vote leave because "Boris has nice fluffy blonde hair". People can be incredibly stupid at times.
I'm not feeling overly sympathetic towards people who've doomed us to 5 more years of austerity.
Right, but the other party will also make things better for foreigners and brown people.
Yes, poor people are exploited. Yes, poor people are preyed upon with lies and propaganda. But they can also be really fucking nasty and racist too - they're not innocent just because their standards of living are below western expectations.