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Oct 27, 2017
42,700
It's in response to a statement clearly denoting, "Hey, maybe don't have your fake made up fiction thing act as the source of discrimination and bigotry, especially when it's faces are primarily beautiful white people in a world where a bunch of discrimination and bigotry still is being heavily applied to real minorities."

And the response is "Well they could do the irish/italian thing" and it's A huge Fuck no, that's the actual worst fucking thing you could do.

Yeah? And? I literally explain if they're going to do that they would have to drastically change the type of discrimination/bigotry faced by real minorities in the Xmen world. And then I referenced Irish/Italians because that's a group that went from being discriminated to not being because they essentially banded together to discriminate against less white passing groups. And then I further explained it shouldn't be 1:1 because there are key differences.

Maybe the real minorities would act the same and it'd become regular humans vs mutants. Maybe they'd empathize, having gone through similar discrimination, and be on the side of mutants. Who knows. There are lots of directions they could go, even if they currently aren't and are just lazily slapping mutants into our existing world. The best fictional world building looks to real life examples as reference for ideas, because nothing is as comprehensive as actual world history. It's why GRRM's world is so well realized because he loves history.

I still don't get why you're heated other than you not understanding what I meant
 

Woozies

Member
Nov 1, 2017
18,998
Yeah? And? I literally explain if they're going to do that they would have to drastically change the type of discrimination/bigotry faced by real minorities in the Xmen world. And then I referenced Irish/Italians because that's a group that went from being discriminated to not being because they essentially banded together to discriminate against less white passing groups. And then I further explained it shouldn't be 1:1 because there are key differences.

Maybe the real minorities would act the same and it'd become regular humans vs mutants. Maybe they'd empathize, having gone through similar discrimination, and be on the side of mutants. Who knows. There are lots of directions they could go, even if they currently aren't and are just lazily slapping mutants into our existing world. The best fictional world building looks to real life examples as reference for ideas, because nothing is as comprehensive as actual world history. It's why GRRM's world is so well realized because he loves history.

I still don't get why you're heated other than you not understanding what I meant


I'm not heated over it, I'm saying it's dumb given the very clear parallels to the current day earth that marvel goes for. It's a stance that's just not gonna fly on a wider scale, cause it's intrinsically in bad taste at best.

Me syaing it's dumb for the clear easy to see from a mile away problems isn't me being heated over it.
 

CoolestSpot

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,325
It's in response to a statement clearly denoting, "Hey, maybe don't have your fake made up fiction thing act as the source of discrimination and bigotry, especially when it's faces are primarily beautiful white people in a world where a bunch of discrimination and bigotry still is being heavily applied to real minorities."

And the response is "Well they could do the irish/italian thing" and it's A huge Fuck no, that's the actual worst fucking thing you could do.
Oh it is? Sorry, I guess I should shut and sit out on this one, as a white guy that sounds fine on paper, I guess I can see how it's problematic though.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Maybe unpopular opinion: The X-Men franchise should probably start to pivot away from being allegories to racial and sexual minorities since

A. It's no longer taboo to talk about both those things openly
B. The X-Men live in a facsimile of our world, which means actual racial and sexual minorities exist and experience prejudice

I don't know, it just feels weird watching the X-Men films and there's a scene where blond, blue-eyed Rebecca Romijn talks about her "slave name". It feels like co opting at this point.
I agree on all of that, and I would go even further - when you use mutants as stand-in to oppressed minorities you are conceding one of the most important points to racist before you even started - that minorities are just people, beings just like everyone else.

This how X-Men's 2 "racists" kinda have a point that real world racists never ever have, and I think the movie end up really undermining its message with it.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,720
Captain America and the Avengers are seen as celebrity super cops, their powers are secondary to the fact they are still on the "human team", the Avengers aren't claiming to be apart of some new race.(and of course tons of people still don't like them) A figure like Cyclops(head/face of the most powerful mutant group on the planet) is a mutant activist, loud and aggressive, and boy does that anger people. Magneto showed up back in the day as a terrorist and starting ranting about how mutants were superior and would take over which planted the seed in public consciousness, and boy does that anger people.

99% of mutants aren't super cops, celebrities, or heroes, they're seen as a quickly multiplying invading force threatening to supplant humanity as the dominant species, and boy does that anger people. Hickman's really taken the next step in having mutants make up their own language and truly becoming a distinct culture on the world stage, now there's really more of a laser target for people to focus their bigotry on.
 

Terrell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Canada
There are many instances of humans in the comics liking/loving a super-powered being until they realize they're a mutant, and vice versa.

It's not really just about the super powers. It's about what they represent. Spider-Man is the result of a freak accident, but little Sally next door is a reminder that my people's (humans) days are numbered. And there's nothing so frightening as a random child waking up one day and shooting lasers out of their eyes or some shit.

It's not wholly rational, but bigots never are, and you can totally see how the dichotomy works between mutants and other supers. Which is why the whole "mutants won't work in the MCU" take has always been bullshit.

To be more precise, mutants represent what they consider an existential threat to humanity.

With other heroes and villains, the fear or derision is dependent on the individual, since their circumstances are so uncommon as to be benign to humanity in general. There's not that many Harry Osbornes out there with the money to become a supervillain, ditto for the accidents/experiments that preclude some of the others (in fact, there is a narrative that suggests that those supervillains come for human hubris and the naivety of using incarcerated criminals as guinea pigs). Same with the alien "gods" like Thor, their mythology clearly delineates who they stand for and there is no variability there.

But beyond that, mutants can be ANY person born in the world, with all the myriad of motivations and intentions. It makes mutation a "through a mirror darkly" situation, where an average human being's own capacity for unfathomable evil is made all the more terrifying (and all the more undeniable) when any one of them could have dangerous superpowers from a fluke at birth. And that naturally terrifies people, especially when some of them are terrorists that advocate for mutant supremacy (which could be seen as karmic chickens coming home to roost, as it were). It extends beyond a mere race and sexuality allegory by incorporating a true existential dread, one that can be seen in the comic to transcend into even marginalized communities (which is analogous to, for example, LGBTQ people not having solidarity with anti-racist activism).

X-Men can feature useful allegories without discounting or cheapening other real oppression for this reason, but in modern times, that allegory may be better served as a reminder of how important it is to view the world with intersectionality in mind and to draw the correlation directly, rather than indirectly or in a tongue-in-cheek manor. Make the mutant prejudice a cautionary tale about humankind repeatedly making the same mistakes in the same ways.

Furthermore, this sort of prejudice also extends to fear of things like the symbiote aliens and most non-Norse aliens in general and is seen in the Marvel universe all the time.

Maybe unpopular opinion: The X-Men franchise should probably start to pivot away from being allegories to racial and sexual minorities since

A. It's no longer taboo to talk about both those things openly
B. The X-Men live in a facsimile of our world, which means actual racial and sexual minorities exist and experience prejudice

I don't know, it just feels weird watching the X-Men films and there's a scene where blond, blue-eyed Rebecca Romijn talks about her "slave name". It feels like co opting at this point.

The films from Fox were exceptionally more heavy-handed than they had any right to be. There is a track that can be taken that still makes the allegories in X-Men relevant, but you have to be very careful about how you write them.

A lot of mutants don't really get much benefit from their mutation. So I think they justify their anti-mutant bigotry because the other superpowered people they see are either humans or villains whereas mutants might just be people you see at their jobs, selling hot dogs or telemarketing or trying to work in an office. So it's easier to sow the idea that mutants are taking over.

Yeah, this is an oft-overlooked factor: not every mutant in the Marvel universe actually develops a superpower, some are quite benign, particularly among the Morlocks that are seen as repulsive even by other mutants (again, intersectionality should be the word of the millennium for X-Men stories moving forward).

I hadn't thought about that enough, but that's another way that the minority analogy in general, and more specifically the "our mutant children will replace us" rationale for in-universe prejudice only existing against mutants, doesn't really work. In the real world, the fact that gay kids can be born to anyone including rich white parents clearly helped public sentiment shift so rapidly in favor of LGBT rights over the past few decades, rather than the opposite.

See the first part of my post. There is a clear difference between gay people and mutants.

But the thing we all forget is that, for all the mutant fear and hate, canonically there ARE humans who support mutants and accept that they are no more or less deserving of dignity than human beings and the supposed danger they pose is no more or less statistically likely to endanger you than traditional human evils, both malignant and benign.
 
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TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,449
I lOVE the X-Men,but "Thats my human name" I can't cringe harder. Like if you wanna draw similarities to the black struggle in America you can't have a super powerful supremacist faction.

There's more to the allegory than just civil rights for black folk though. The "human name" thing (which even comes up in the new comic) makes a ton of sense particularly in the context of how ethnically East Asian people often take western names to use away from home, in everyday life. Pretty much every Korean or Chinese kid I went to school with went by their "American name", for instance.
 

PixelatedDonut

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,966
Philly ❤️
There's more to the allegory than just civil rights for black folk though. The "human name" thing (which even comes up in the new comic) makes a ton of sense particularly in the context of how ethnically East Asian people often take western names to use away from home, in everyday life. Pretty much every Korean or Chinese kid I went to school with went by their "American name", for instance.
Ok That's cool, but the phrase has had dominance in black culture. I don't think its farfetched to draw conculions on something with over 2 hundred years of cultural history.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,513
MCU only people are in for a treat at discovering how Tony Stark acts in the comics.
 

Deleted member 56306

User-requested account closure
Banned
Apr 26, 2019
2,383
I'm trying my hardest to wrap my head around how the bigotry against Mutants work based off of the idea that anyone could be a mutant... And I just can't fathom it. If everyone has the potential to be Mutants, I feel like it kinda makes the "human replacement" moot. I'm not caught up with the comics, but Mutants don't have their own culture with which to "invade" by default they are already assimilated into a culture. I know that propaganda and all that ties into it, but it still is hard for me to imagine.
 
OP
OP
Slayven

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,135
I'm trying my hardest to wrap my head around how the bigotry against Mutants work based off of the idea that anyone could be a mutant... And I just can't fathom it. If everyone has the potential to be Mutants, I feel like it kinda makes the "human replacement" moot. I'm not caught up with the comics, but Mutants don't have their own culture with which to "invade" by default they are already assimilated into a culture. I know that propaganda and all that ties into it, but it still is hard for me to imagine.
LGBTQ isn't race limited, but they are hated the world over. They tried to built their own culture but they keep getting attacked. Genosha, Utopia, etc
 
OP
OP
Slayven

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,135
How has Tony managed to survive without suddenly finding three adamantium claws in his liver?
Funny things about axis the event where everyone's morality was flipped. He didn't change all that much. Right Manmademan

6a0120a58aead7970c01b8d095b1e9970c-600wi
 

Terrell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Canada
I'm trying my hardest to wrap my head around how the bigotry against Mutants work based off of the idea that anyone could be a mutant... And I just can't fathom it. If everyone has the potential to be Mutants, I feel like it kinda makes the "human replacement" moot. I'm not caught up with the comics, but Mutants don't have their own culture with which to "invade" by default they are already assimilated into a culture. I know that propaganda and all that ties into it, but it still is hard for me to imagine.
Basically, Homo sapiens superior fully supplants Homo sapiens over time if no one intervenes. Basically, evolution at work, unless Homo sapiens tip the scales in their favour while their strength in numbers works to achieve that.
 

Deleted member 56306

User-requested account closure
Banned
Apr 26, 2019
2,383
LGBTQ isn't race limited, but they are hated the world over. They tried to built their own culture but they keep getting attacked. Genosha, Utopia, etc

Yes but LGBTQ people have the Bible, people's disgust and the idea of "not furthering your people" as driving justifications for bigotry. Mutants don't have that problem.
 

Deleted member 56306

User-requested account closure
Banned
Apr 26, 2019
2,383
Basically, Homo sapiens superior fully supplants Homo sapiens over time if no one intervenes. Basically, evolution at work, unless Homo sapiens tip the scales in their favour while their strength in numbers works to achieve that.

I mean I get how it works, but it kinda falls apart when it's closer to being born with an increased ability to being an athlete rather than a new group of people taking over your lands and erasing your culture.

Edit: I kinda hate how I'm phrasing this tbh. But I mean the fear of such a thing.
 

Terrell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Canada
I mean I get how it works, but it kinda falls apart when it's closer to being born with an increased ability to being an athlete rather than a new group of people taking over your lands and erasing your culture.

Edit: I kinda hate how I'm phrasing this tbh. But I mean the fear of such a thing.
Again, there's a mutant group (albeit a very small one by population) that advocates for mutant supremacy. That... tends to inflame certain sentiment or accelerate certain mindsets to reach a logical conclusion.
 
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Aadiboy

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,652
The X-Men Fox movies were all so bleak and boring. MCU X-Men need to not be so depressing and heavy-handed.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,019
I'm trying my hardest to wrap my head around how the bigotry against Mutants work based off of the idea that anyone could be a mutant... And I just can't fathom it. If everyone has the potential to be Mutants, I feel like it kinda makes the "human replacement" moot. I'm not caught up with the comics, but Mutants don't have their own culture with which to "invade" by default they are already assimilated into a culture. I know that propaganda and all that ties into it, but it still is hard for me to imagine.

Race is a social construct. There is no meaningful distinction to be made between a white, black, Asian, or hispanic person. You might THINK there is, but this is social conditioning, not reality.

For instance- at what "percentage" of blackness does a person cease to be black? 50%? 25? 10?
Is a person with one black grandparent still black? How about two? Great grandparents? It quickly breaks down to playing it by eye and what you feel a particular person happens to look like, genetics be damned.

This distinction has never had a clear answer and led to some truly insane laws like the grandfather clause. Similarly ethnic groups like Italians and Irish weren't white people until it became socially convenient to move the goalposts.

Bigotry against Mutants works because humanity likes to draw a line between who "is" and "is not" baseline human for social reasons, much like they prefer to draw arbitrary lines in the real world about what racial class one belongs to. There's always the claim about "safety" but these arguments are bullshit, driven more by fear and jockeying for positions of power rather than anything rational.

Unfortunately mutants being what they are, the eyeball test frequently doesn't work, which led humanity to implement increasingly ridiculous genetic tests to be able to draw those lines- genetic tests that happened to be attached to gigantic murderous robots for "safety reasons."

The DOFP lesson is that giant murderous robots, left on their own will eventually figure out what social scientists figured out about race. That there is no meaningful distinction between mutant and human. It's a social construct that is not genetically meaningful so according to programming, everything dies.
 
OP
OP
Slayven

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,135
Race is a social construct. There is no meaningful distinction to be made between a white, black, Asian, or hispanic person. You might THINK there is, but this is social conditioning, not reality.

For instance- at what "percentage" of blackness does a person cease to be black? 50%? 25? 10?
Is a person with one black grandparent still black? How about two? Great grandparents? It quickly breaks down to playing it by eye and what you feel a particular person happens to look like, genetics be damned.

This distinction has never had a clear answer and led to some truly insane laws like the grandfather clause. Similarly ethnic groups like Italians and Irish weren't white people until it became socially convenient to move the goalposts.

Bigotry against Mutants works because humanity likes to draw a line between who "is" and "is not" baseline human for social reasons, much like they prefer to draw arbitrary lines in the real world about what racial class one belongs to. There's always the claim about "safety" but these arguments are bullshit, driven more by fear and jockeying for positions of power rather than anything rational.

Unfortunately mutants being what they are, the eyeball test frequently doesn't work, which led humanity to implement increasingly ridiculous genetic tests to be able to draw those lines- genetic tests that happened to be attached to gigantic murderous robots for "safety reasons."

The DOFP lesson is that giant murderous robots, left on their own will eventually figure out what social scientists figured out about race. That there is no meaningful distinction between mutant and human. It's a social construct that is not genetically meaningful so according to programming, everything dies.
They never did a version of phrenology in the marvel universe, someone should.
 

Deleted member 56306

User-requested account closure
Banned
Apr 26, 2019
2,383
Race is a social construct. There is no meaningful distinction to be made between a white, black, Asian, or hispanic person. You might THINK there is, but this is social conditioning, not reality.

For instance- at what "percentage" of blackness does a person cease to be black? 50%? 25? 10?
Is a person with one black grandparent still black? How about two? Great grandparents? It quickly breaks down to playing it by eye and what you feel a particular person happens to look like, genetics be damned.

This distinction has never had a clear answer and led to some truly insane laws like the grandfather clause. Similarly ethnic groups like Italians and Irish weren't white people until it became socially convenient to move the goalposts.

Bigotry against Mutants works because humanity likes to draw a line between who "is" and "is not" baseline human for social reasons, much like they prefer to draw arbitrary lines in the real world about what racial class one belongs to. There's always the claim about "safety" but these arguments are bullshit, driven more by fear and jockeying for positions of power rather than anything rational.

Unfortunately mutants being what they are, the eyeball test frequently doesn't work, which led humanity to implement increasingly ridiculous genetic tests to be able to draw those lines- genetic tests that happened to be attached to gigantic murderous robots for "safety reasons."

The DOFP lesson is that giant murderous robots, left on their own will eventually figure out what social scientists figured out about race. That there is no meaningful distinction between mutant and human. It's a social construct that is not genetically meaningful so according to programming, everything dies.

Okay, I think I'm sort of getting your point. However, I take issue with the presentation of "race as a social construct" because while that's true, people are largely social animals and as a result these things that shouldn't matter do. So while yes, quantifying blackness becomes difficult to do once you really start getting in the weeds - the issue I still have is that Mutants kinda do have a point where you can tell who is and isn't a mutant - it's at the point where they have three fully functioning arms or can lift a car over their head. There is a point at which it's sort of a 0 or 1 when it comes to being a mutant.

On top of that, I'm just unsure if blackness can responsibly compare with literal superpowers on the basis of discrimination. Like my parents had to inform me to be careful around the police/a teacher/in a store, to downplay my blackness, to suppress my emotional responses so as to navigate the world in a way that doesn't lead to me being shot and killed on account of fears that are wholly illogical. When you get literal super powers involved people's fears are a little too easily justified.
 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,471
I don't understand the first comic strip in the OP. Can someone explain it?
 

Puffy

Banned
Dec 15, 2017
3,585
Ironic that mutants like kitty pride and wolverine have said racially insensitive things. The whole anolgy and xmen in general is bullshit but I like Hickman so I'm giving his story a chance
 

Soupman Prime

The Fallen
Nov 8, 2017
8,570
Boston, MA
I saw this movie a week ago and for the life of me cannot remember Mysterio saying anything political
He's basically saying people will believe anything these days. Those were basically his last lines to Peter and it's why his plan was so close to working.

Even during his speech he said how it he writer's story was so crazy but people in the world they live in wouldn't question it. Basically fake news
 

Terrell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Canada
I always saw it as a goofy way to draw white characters experiencing racism. Maybe back in the day that was the only way to make 12-17 year old white boys think critically about racism, but is it still necessary today

Feige will make every mutant a minority and all will be well
Considering we live in an age where people still don't know how to sympathize with others' prejudices even when they experience prejudice themselves (racism in LGBTQ spaces, homophobia and misogyny among marginalized PoC), yeah, there's still lessons X-Men can teach to everyone. The message just has to evolve.
Also, considering how rampant racism still is, anything that aids people in getting where they need to to be mentally to realize racism is wrong is beneficial. Again, so long as they're responsible with the message.
 

ScoobsJoestar

Member
May 30, 2019
4,071
There's more to the allegory than just civil rights for black folk though. The "human name" thing (which even comes up in the new comic) makes a ton of sense particularly in the context of how ethnically East Asian people often take western names to use away from home, in everyday life. Pretty much every Korean or Chinese kid I went to school with went by their "American name", for instance.

Speaking as an immigrant, there's generally not a lot of resentment or emotion over our Americanized names. It's just the "saves me the time to explain how to pronounce it" name and if you get close to someone you explain your actual name because they are worth the effort of explaining it. It's not really an emotionally charged phrase in this case.

I should note, it's not emotionally charged in my experience or my friends. For all I know others have differing experiences.