Because we're talking about mostly six figure salaries here. Lots of people will never be able wrap their mind around that being considered low or under market.
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People focus on crunch, but not much public attention is put on how game developers are underpaid.
- Thread starter NineConsonants
- Start date
Crunch is related to being underpaid, if they don't get paid for working overtime (or get comp time or whatever), as working unpaid overtime decreases your effective hourly wage. Not sure how common that is in the private sector for software developers. I get paid overtime, but I work for the Department of Defense.
I'm basing this on the fact that I've been working on the same job for 15 years and and I'm working as a senior lighting designer. And 50k would be a dream for me.
It won't change until workers start demanding more, and that won't happen until they stop accepting poor work life balance and below market rate for their profession because they're passionate about games.
Earlier, you said '..a lot of work done in software engineering outside of video games is making some form of a C.R.U.D. application. You aren't going to find people that are "passionate" about making these kinds of things' - I've worked on a number of CRUD apps and nearly everyone I've worked with was passionate about solving difficult problems and improving the product for customers.
People need to get it out of their heads that working on software outside of gaming is not exciting and fulfilling - it is, and you get paid more and work less too.
Totally fair, I just wanted to make sure rando's who skim through posts saw a strongly worded post about the balance with other positions.
As far as averages, those numbers seem iffy. Ive worked with engineers in Silicon Valley and they all make way over 100k while working in games. Me as a Sr Artist make a little over 100k (which is OK given the cost and 12 years exp) and when I was indy I made a bit more, actually. I know engs with my same exp or less make way more.
All also makes a lot of difference where you live, SF 100K is not great at all.
Now I bet that at DICE in Sweden making 100K would be pretty great :D
Any industry where you do creative work pays less because it's more satisfying.
I run the 3d team at a marketing agency and we had a guy who was previously employed at Target managing their digitising process for stock who's asking salary was $300,000. And he was a solid mid level, barely above junior in quality of work - 60k/yr standard in our industry for his quality of work.
I could get paid 3x as much as I do now easily, but I wouldn't enjoy the work. It's just the way it is.
If you want to go develop analytical software for a bank you'll be on 300-500k. Wont get to make games though and the work stresses / demands are miserable, so they're in constant short supply and high demand.
I run the 3d team at a marketing agency and we had a guy who was previously employed at Target managing their digitising process for stock who's asking salary was $300,000. And he was a solid mid level, barely above junior in quality of work - 60k/yr standard in our industry for his quality of work.
I could get paid 3x as much as I do now easily, but I wouldn't enjoy the work. It's just the way it is.
If you want to go develop analytical software for a bank you'll be on 300-500k. Wont get to make games though and the work stresses / demands are miserable, so they're in constant short supply and high demand.
I thought a google you could just take 2-3 hour naps if you wanted to and then go to a chill out room?
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That is an interesting video. It definitely feels like that part of the industry can easily take advantage of people's love of video games.
I understand that, but it is flawed to limit your potential earnings based on what you are currently making. I was working retail for nearly a decade before getting into software engineering. It would have been a bad move for me to just take any low-end pay in software engineering just because I was used to making a few dollars above minimum wage for so long.
Don't feel like you have to be financially struggling to consider yourself to be underpaid. That's only helps those who are truly overpaid.
Oh yeah, I absolutely believe there's lots of areas in SWE that are fun to work in. There's tons of problems to solve that can be interesting. But the thing I'm getting at is that you won't find many engineers who grew up using software as kids and their dream job is create CRUD apps or optimize click-through rates. They can be interested in the work without romanticizing it.
From what I've been seeing on websites like teamblind.com, companies like EA do pay software engineers well, but they could be making clearly more at other companies in the same area. I'll see somebody having a TC of around $180k with a decade of experience at EA and people at Google or Facebook making around $350k with that kind of experience.
See, this mentality is the problem. It feels like those in creative industries have been tricked into thinking work in non-creative fields is a dreadful unfulfilling experience. And at the end of the day, it shouldn't matter because your passion is for yourself. You could hate working on games, but that's the job you found. You could love solving software engineering problems. Neither should impact your worth because your "passion" isn't a part of the goods being exchanged with your employer.
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It's an issue across all computer software jobs and from my experience here is why.
Colleges split computer science into these individual and specialized courses to of course... get more money .. but that only pumped out a ton of very specific and marginalized developers. What that means is to get the same skill level as a full stack developer you need to hire multiple people and balance the work load accordingly. That of course means you have to pay out more money as a whole even if it's less per person. This has devalued the individual across the whole industry even highly skilled full stack developers barely make 6 figures these days.
Colleges split computer science into these individual and specialized courses to of course... get more money .. but that only pumped out a ton of very specific and marginalized developers. What that means is to get the same skill level as a full stack developer you need to hire multiple people and balance the work load accordingly. That of course means you have to pay out more money as a whole even if it's less per person. This has devalued the individual across the whole industry even highly skilled full stack developers barely make 6 figures these days.
In the places where many (not all) of these video game jobs are, that is far, far below the poverty line.
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I don't really understand this perspective on college. In college, I chose courses like computer networks, computer graphics, AI, Machine Learning, Web Programming, Database Design, Human Computer Interaction, OOAD.
These were my electives during my bachelors and masters. I wasn't being split up in order to hurt my potential for incoming. I was pursuing my interests that helped me diversify my skills to be able to work in a number of different areas of CS. I don't feel like this is the cause of any issue. How would you have things work instead?
Yes there are probably a lot of game devs that should consider changing industries if they want more money. There are just so many young people that get the idea that they want to make games. No young person thinks about making erps or project management software or specializing in an obscure but in demand language.
You are a full stack developer but most people out there coming out of colleges are not.
But in any case even with those you listed a lot of them overlap and/or share concepts that could be in the same course.
And there are courses you can take that are " only " about c# , only about .net, only about windows.
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Are you talking about coding boot camps? Because my experience in college didn't focus us to only learn certain languages. A class may require the work be done in in a certain language, but it was always just a vehicle used for learning the concept of the class.
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Yeah, there were a lot of college students that were in the game development track. I'm not totally versed on the curriculum, but it felt like a very narrow learning area to me. I wonder how much experience they get that can be applied outside of game development.
That's a bit of a leap. Many people from corporate environments have taken huge paycuts to work for us, this isn't an assumption I am making. I just used one example of a 25yr old who thought he could still demand 300k+ in creative.
We sell our work - that's the difference. What we create is what's for sale, for better or worse. Some people prefer the direct connection with the end result.
For the record I am planning to dip into corporate and make more - I'm not saying the way creative industries work is better, many people do find satisfaction in corporate work
It is just how it is though. If an artist gets ownership over the end result, and the client is buying the direct creative product, it's not the same.
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But you can have that sort of role at other software engineering companies too. Let's say you're working at Netflix for example. A lot of work is done on the front end and back end that clearly is the actual product of the companies. Developers make new features on Snapchat and Instagram and also get to feel a sense of reward as well. You don't even need to focus on the top-end of tech companies either.
The way you're presenting the alternative makes it sound like you can only get this from the gaming industry.
Im not presenting anything - This is actually something we have issue with too - we struggle to hire junior 3d artists because everyone with less than 5yrs wants to work in games and movies and thinks what we do is boring as hell. I'm not arguing with you, just kids with passion aren't looking at those jobs and that's how things are like this.
Im just saying I could earn more in a different job, people have taken paycuts to work for us and someone thought they could get a corporate salary with us.
I don't work in games - I am a partner at a cg/vfx studio that does advertising. Our artists get a lot of creative control over their output. I know within games, getting to put your stamp on things is a big draw.
Im just saying I could earn more in a different job, people have taken paycuts to work for us and someone thought they could get a corporate salary with us.
I don't work in games - I am a partner at a cg/vfx studio that does advertising. Our artists get a lot of creative control over their output. I know within games, getting to put your stamp on things is a big draw.
That's not what I'm saying. I actually do make more than that, but the reality of my situation is that where I live is expensive as hell, and I have family costs that aren't cheap.
But what I mean, though, is that it's going to be an uphill battle to get most people onboard with understanding that you can still be underpaid while making that kind of money. Just a couple of months ago, there was a thread on the ETC side about whether $100k/year would be considered rich regardless of context, and many--maybe most, even--users even here couldn't see beyond their own myopic worldview that that salary is absolutely rich.
So it's not going to be easy to convince people to empathize with people who are making $100k when they could be making a lot more. The number itself shouldn't matter, but it does to a lot of people.
Supply and demand. I have a friend straight out of college working for amazon for 100k. I really believe this gigantic gap is mainly due to all the demand (specially in the USA).
But also important to take into account where this people are living. Bay area, Washington DC, this are all very expensive places to live so salaries have to be higher.
In the game industry there is way more competition and not so many open spots, so unless you are hunting for the cream you are going to be able to underpay people.
But also important to take into account where this people are living. Bay area, Washington DC, this are all very expensive places to live so salaries have to be higher.
In the game industry there is way more competition and not so many open spots, so unless you are hunting for the cream you are going to be able to underpay people.
Realizing that game developers have shit working hours and also get paid less is 100% why I decided to not go into the games industry. I have way too many options as a software developer to consider making games under those conditions.
What?
That is really good salary. Considering that everything is so cheap in the US and the taxes are low I can't really wrap my head around this being a bad salary.
In northen Europe those are management salaries, with much higher taxes and overall higer consumer prices.
Crunch exists in all fields. Hell even people working at a car/truck manufacturer who only do 1-5 basic things as the car/truck rolls by them can do crunch of up to 50-60 hours/week.
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Compare it to software engineers in many other fields. You can go into other similarly competitive areas in software engineering and make a lot more, or make equivalent pay and have much easier work with better wlb.
It is true that a person working on databases or productivity software or banking software or web apps will generally make a larger salary than people working on games. But it has gotten better, due to there being a greater need for software engineers than the number of available software engineers. It used to be that if you took a job in game programming, you knew you were really sacrificing high pay for a fun job (the common statement was "I could be making double this at Microsoft doing boring work"). Now the pay is a lot closer, and there are actually more options for fun programming jobs with game engines than just game development, thanks to VR and AR spreading to the business markets, and more customer-facing internet apps with graphical front ends.
Yeah but that's true for every job. Some companies pay more, some less.
An accountant for a small 5 man firm in Idaho doesn't get payed as much as one working for a big bank in New York.
Right, but regardless of size of company, someone making accounting software will on average have a larger salary than someone making game software, even for a company of equivalent size in the same region. It's just how things are.
That's not the same comparison though. We're not just talking about working for bigger or smaller companies. Working as a game developer regardless of the size of the company will get you less than in comparison to a similar level role at a different software developer. Everyone knows you make less as a software engineer working in games. It's more about the industry than the size of the company.
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But the point is the gaming industry pays less when compared to other industries with the same prestige and competing areas.
Correct. And that's fine. Some fields pay more, some less.
That is okay. As I said above some fields pay more some less. I'm sure there are fields in software engineering that pay less then the gaming equivalent.
Lots of companies compensate for not paying enough salary with these kinds of "benefits" and make it look like an awesome place to the outside.
That is why I said it like that.
It's for the exact same job though, not a different field. Same skills, time, job requirements. The programming doesn't change whether you are creating a driving simulator for a car manufacturer or Gran Turismo. But that car manufacturer is going to pay almost double what the game job does.
There's a reason that good software engineers make decent salaries, and it's the same reason that "learn to code in sixteen weekd" courses are scams: it's easy to find someone that can code, it's rare to find someone that can do software engineering.
It's not uncommon for the same position to command different pay depending on the industry it's in, especially with jobs that can have a diverse and specialized skillsets (where they are similar in name only).
It feels weird making a big deal about it when you yourself aren't making nearly that much and don't know much about the field. I have enough issues with pay in my own field and my job in particular that I can't really expend the effort to do much for another field, that on the whole pays far better than mine. Those kinds of hangups don't factor in when discussing employers overworking employees, because everyone can understand and relate to that idea and come together in solidarity more easily. Crunch is also what you hear horror stories about, people are less willing to share stories about being underpaid for a myriad of reasons.
A lot of people are underpaid. I'm an engineer and I've seen engineers grossly underpaid, especially ones with less experience than I had in terms of years but were doing roughly the same work.
I think, really, as an outsider there's nothing I can do to influence this type of thing, just like there's nothing you could to get my colleague engineers better pay. It needs to be handled from within. Angry tweet storms will get managed PR responses that ultimately we can't verify because we're not in the industry.
I think, really, as an outsider there's nothing I can do to influence this type of thing, just like there's nothing you could to get my colleague engineers better pay. It needs to be handled from within. Angry tweet storms will get managed PR responses that ultimately we can't verify because we're not in the industry.
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But software engineers that work on games are also software engineers.
I mean "field" as in "industry".
A meteorologist working for the local TV news in a small county in Idaho is logicaly be getting payed less then someone working as a meteorologist for the Pentagon in D.C. They do the same work but get payed differently because they are in different "fields" (industry).
My point is, this applies to many jobs. Game industry just pays bad, according to some, compared to other industries.
But again, you are bringing up completely different locations with different types of work. You're right, a programmer for a small company in Vegas will make a different amount than a programmer for a huge corporation in Silicon Valley. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the exact same job in the exact same location for the same size of company making the exact same program will be paid completely differently. On average, not just unique companies. Game developers get paid less for the exact same work, 99% of the time. That's not common in other industries.
The small local TV news could be based in D.C., they still be payed much less then the Pentagon job. They are still doind the exact same work, i.e. forecasting the weather. But as I said, different industries pays different money. One can always choose to go where the money is or stay where their hobby is.
Game developers get payed less because they are in an industry that doesn't offer as great salaries as other industries, on the other hand it offer better salaries then some other industries.
Do developers not get paid differently in different industries (e.g. at a biotech vs. being in finance, etc.)? Because that's the cause for nearly every other discipline. And that's with virtually identical job responsibilities/outcomes.