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Anno

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,950
Columbus, Ohio
because it's a series of rewards that makes them feel good.

Yeah but that's every game. For some reason these particular ones are what end up being judged as somehow objectively worse than others, though. It's weird. Reminds me of when people here re-ran that series of IGN polls because they weren't producing the results expected of this particular bubble of the gaming world.
 

Hu3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,575
By reading this thread you can tell the abysmal disconnect between gaming enthusiast and the regular consumer. I got tons of friends that buy consoles just to play one game, one game through months or even the whole year, they buy the consoles just to play call of duty or destiny. They want the game to "last" them.
 

boontobias

Avenger
Apr 14, 2018
9,531
Games that ruin games cant ruin games if you dont buy those games and only play games you think dont ruin games
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
Idunno about "ruining gaming".

But I will say is that as I get older and busier, the spectre of starting a game that requires 100+ hours to finish in any meaningful way is now actually a negative, where in the past it would have been seen as a positive for me. Getting your monies worth and all that. So many games have become grind-fests with excessively long modes of play and battle passes to get fun new items that I just don't have the time to play them all or any. So I just feel like I'm missing out all the time, which is frustrating.
  • Destiny 2's new expansion requires about 60 hours of "play" in its new mode to unlock an upgrade for its new weapon. There is also a seasonal event that has really good new weapons, should you luck into the right RNG rolls (which means time to farm materials for RNG rolls).
  • League of Legends' current event pass requires at least 60 hours to get enough tokens to unlock the event "prestige" skin.
  • Dota 2's current event pass requires more than 100 hours to unlock its new skins for Mirana and Drow Ranger, and those skins are the entire point of buying the season pass in the first place. And even with 100 hours, I'm not sure if you'd get to the Drow Ranger skin without investing additional money to buy levels.
And all 3 of the above are part of events that end over the next month. And this is before even thinking about Halo Infinite and Valorant, should I want to make progress in those at all. And before thinking about any other games I might want to play instead.

But this is a personal problem maybe more than a problem with the industry. But I can say I felt like I was missing out less frequently when battle passes and FOMO were not part of every game.
 
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ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,949
I agree. Games are too long these days. The older I get, the less time I have for them. I'm pleasantly surprised when a AAA game only takes 8 hours to play through.

As long as I can save at any time, the length doesn't matter to me. It's all about how good the loop is. What are you giving me to do?

Some games wear out their welcome in 6-8hrs, and others I can just keep going.
 

CubeApple76

Member
Jan 20, 2021
6,652
Yeah no, just don't play it. AC has always been a long grindy game, there's always been plenty of non-Ubisoft style games to play for anyone who isn't a fan of those kinds of games
 
Oct 29, 2017
7,500
There's absolutely no shortage of concise game experiences with no bloat and no DLC hooks though. Just a quick look at Game Pass and I see Lake, The Gunk, 12 Minutes, Unpacking...

Dislike bloated GAAS if you like but until they push other experiences out of the scene, nothing's ruined.
 
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DarrenM

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,705
Ridiculous take, a game that takes a long time to complete isn't ruining anything. People can avoid long games, or you could play a 60-80 hour game, for 15 or hours and still have got your moneys worth.

Games like BOTW, Fallout or Witcher can be finished in probably 20 hours if you just do the main quest, but I played those games well in to triple digits because I wanted to see and do everything.
 

vitormg

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,928
Brazil
Huh, no. Huge time sink games have their space just as medium-sized and small-sized games.

Such a stupid take it's not even funny.
 

DNAbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,874
I do think there is an issue in the goal of these games being "MAUs and time spent" so they can optimize player spending on microtransactions. Not every huge game is like this, but it can feel like goal isn't player enjoyment but "have we created a system to make the player feel like they need to come back to get the most out of it." When someone starts moving away from a game that is focused on that kind of player engagement it can absolutely ruin the trust and desire for future products developed by that team/company. Don't think I want the next AC game at all and my desire for GAAS games has completely disappeared.
 

grosvenor92

Member
Dec 2, 2017
1,881
Despite being a fan of the series and enjoying Odyssey I have little interest in Valhalla. It's a formula that works for Ubisoft but it does need to under go some changes for me to want return to the series.
 

baconcow

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,814
I do not agree. Some people like the time sinks involved in these games, just like some people like grinding for hundreds of hours in Disgaea and Diablo games. Non-cosmetic MTX are far more harmful.
 

Atom

Member
Jul 25, 2021
11,413
People love to bring this up but no, the $/hour people get by signing to Spotify and Netflix-likes are vastly more in line than what they use to pay for games. Movies also don't last 60 hours and people wouldnt want to buy an 80$ Simpsons blu-ray set that came with the two best episodes instead of entire seasons

But there are plenty blockbuster films that last a couple hours that people pay a lot more to see in cinemas right?

But it's also like there just isn't this level of scrutiny around "getting your money's worth" in a lot of media. Like nobody is buying super long books because it's the "best value" or whatnot. There are definitely people who cancel subscriptions when they're not using them, but plenty just leave them around even if they're not engaging with a lot of the content.

It's this very specific form of vacuous and empty gratification that prompts this sort of perspective. It's the sort of perspective one might take (and I definitely had) as an underfed college student trying to maximize the amount of calories they can get by minmaxing instant ramen or something. To some extent streaming services fit in here -- especially with the notion of Netflix as background noise or something you don't actually actively engage with. Like I wonder if the value prop of netflix would be as good if there was a rule where you had to pay rapt attention to whatever you were watching and couldn't drop shows halfway.

I honestly don't know. How people value stuff is super weird I think and generally inconsistent across media which pushes me to think its basically a fruitless endeavor to try and compare streaming to books to tv to movies to games. Maybe easier to compare within medium populations but not between.

It seems that you need a few necessary conditions for $/hr to be a big factor though.

1. The moment to moment content needs to be base, rudimentary and low quality enough that the sheer amount of it becomes a mitigating factor. This is why nobody complains that some very classic novels are short, or that a game which is absolutely stellar in one thing can be maybe only 10-20 hours. Like nobody is complaining that DMCV isn't a 100 hour behemoth for example because its ultimately a vector for a deep and expressive combat system above all else.

2. The game cannot be too short -- like 2 - 5 hour kind of stuff. People seem to be able to perceive this sort of length easily. I'd guess marginal noticeability of the additional hour seems to trail off really quickly after like 10, 20 and then maybe 40-50 hours though.

3. The raw dollar amount matters especially at the high extremes. It's why $10 indies that might offer less $/hr get more of a pass. There is a sticker price factor that I think is important to a lot of people. Streaming services also benefit from this -- the value prop of gamepass isn't necessarily you will play so many games for so little $, as much as it is there are lots of games you could *choose* to play and the price for entry is very low. Like if gamepass or Netflix was $50/month, it could still probably work out to $1/hr, better than many long video games, but the perception of what it is and cost of admission I think would make people more actively think about the $/hr heuristic. Similarly, with expensive AAA releases nowadays I think this might be important.

It feels like $/hr becomes a useful heuristic to either decry the exceptionally short experiences or as a support for extremely long experiences where the quality-weighted average dollar/hour might actually be far less than the headline number.

It would be interesting to see some more studies and whatnot on how consumers perceive value across media at any rate.

I guess at the end of the day it all comes down to how nebulous an experience is and how subjectivity of valuation interacts with that.
 
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Nov 2, 2017
6,803
Shibuya
Genshin Impact is that game for me. Every day I do the dailies because I don't want to miss out on the free gems but I wish there were no dailies so I could just play when I wanted more than when my brain tells me I need to. I don't know if I agree that these sorts of games are "ruining gaming" worldwide single-handedly but I do think these elements are incredibly pervasive in many of the world's most popular games (Nintendo and Sony first party are probably the biggest exceptions). The majority of people playing games are probably interacting with these systems in part by choice and in part because they're engineered to be addictive and that shouldn't be ignored. In Japan, gacha games have all but taken over using this as a big part of their formula (only Nintendo is really meaningfully able to hack it with traditional games over there), and titles like FIFA, AC, League, Genshin and CoD dominate worldwide and are riddled with these sorts of design. The objective is not to meaningfully reward players, but to string them along for as long as possible with the smallest acceptable reward. It's insidious and I'm surprised at how many in this thread would just handwave it.

Nobody is saying the core gameplay loops in these games are bad- the superfluous never ending player retention hooks are the problem.
 

breander

Member
Oct 27, 2017
518
The overwhelming vast majority of people that buy and play games only buy and play a few games a year. They get them around Christmas time and they have to last until next Christmas. It's only us enthusiasts and game reviewers that want or need to play all the games out there that have this issue.
 

Atom

Member
Jul 25, 2021
11,413
Genshin Impact is that game for me. Every day I do the dailies because I don't want to miss out on the free gems but I wish there were no dailies so I could just play when I wanted more than when my brain tells me I need to. I don't know if I agree that these sorts of games are "ruining gaming" worldwide single-handedly but I do think these elements are incredibly pervasive in many of the world's most popular games (Nintendo and Sony first party are probably the biggest exceptions). The majority of people playing games are probably interacting with these systems in part by choice and in part because they're engineered to be addictive and that shouldn't be ignored. In Japan, gacha games have all but taken over using this as a big part of their formula (only Nintendo is really meaningfully able to hack it with traditional games over there), and titles like FIFA, AC, League, Genshin and CoD dominate worldwide and are riddled with these sorts of design. The objective is not to meaningfully reward players, but to string them along for as long as possible with the smallest acceptable reward. It's insidious and I'm surprised at how many in this thread would just handwave it.

Nobody is saying the core gameplay loops in these games are bad- the superfluous never ending player retention hooks are the problem.

FWIW I think it's that AC Valhalla is probably a pretty bad example of the stuff you are describing (which are all valid criticims). It is a single player game, where cosmetics are limited and superfluous and you can't really show them off to people. The game is packed to the gills with stuff to do (in the technical sense). And the DLC is largely more of the same for people who like the core gameplay loop. It's far less offensive than Odyssey was before it, or many of Ubisofts other player retention approaches or forced grindiness.

The valhalla comparison also turned this into much more of a debate around modern ubisoft than the broader industry trends...and even then ubisoft is a standout in terms of its practices.

I've wanted to try Genshin for a while now but what you describe keeps turning me off. I do eagerly await NFT gacha though just to see how absurd it can become.
 

shiba5

I shed
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
15,784
I have 2000 hours in Animal Crossing and it doesn't even have MTX.
If they ever turn it into Pocket Camp, I'm done with it.

I pick up Valhalla every so often and knock out another chunk of it, but it's too long for one single playthrough - for me. I thought Origins was much better. I only ever did the dailies in Origins because I enjoyed playing in that world.
Just don't play things you find boring. Crazy concept, I know.
 

PhaZe 5

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,444
I dunno, Valhalla was long, but a lot of that was legit story and gameplay. There were optional things you could interact with that could really pad things out, but again...optional.
 

AAION

Member
Dec 28, 2018
1,597
.

Extremely weird whataboutism but: the game is substantially shorter than AC Valhalla. The game is the first of it's kind in the franchise which reduces the risk of franchise fatigue. The gameplay was leagues above modern AC. There was a modestly varied story with some genuine spectacle and out there moments. Overall general polish and each mission featured a different infiltration sandbox probably helped.

And things like the lack of constant story focus and unfinished ending, microtransactions were criticized, at least a bit after launch.

And it's a game from 2015 so it'd be weird to single that game out to write about 7 years later especially when it was made by a publisher who no longer really is in the industry at the same scale. It definitely wasn't a big trend for the franchise at any rate. Just far less topical.

It may be whataboutism, but there's a salient point there. On the topic of empty, repetitive bloat, this article is just one more pandering, gamer outrage stoking piece that points fingers at targets 'gamers' already hate while avoiding well liked franchises guilty of the same sin. Wow! DAE hate Fortnite??? Anyone else also hate Assassin's Creed???

On the subject of what is topical, there are plenty of games released this year with 'bloat'. Does Tales of Arise justify it's playtime? (Does any Tales game for that matter?) How about Forza Horizon 5? Or Loop Hero? Or Hades? Or even 12 minutes? And why do drops for Monster Hunter have such low percentages anyways? All have extended mindless sections of doing nothing but repetitive content for the modicum of reward at the end.

Keeping in with the spirit of cynicism here, this article is clear gamer bait, designed for you to mindlessly pound your desks in rabid agreement, and it worked. It is hardly a thorough, comprehensive or nuanced understanding, and would be better off as a tweet to farm likes or something.
 

RetroRunner

Member
Dec 6, 2020
4,905
AC Odyssey and Valhalla are fantastic games to play over 2 years, it's the CW show of games. Mindlessly entertaining and fun to indulge in a few hours a week.
 

RisingStar

Banned
Oct 8, 2019
4,849
I actually agree with this. I started playing Watch Dogs Legions because it seemed like an easy to play game while listening to podcasts or having party chats but the game is just so much useless busy work I started to lose interest in playing games all together for a month.

Switched out to Guardians of the Galaxy and Mass Effect Legendary Edition and immediately switched my mood. Ubisoft are just there to trap you into time sinks with value proposition.
 

edgefusion

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,865
Time-sink games are a symptom of the sickness, not the sickness itself. The sickness is the MTX warping how games are constructed, so I have to fundamentally disagree with the premise of the article, it's the other way around.
 

Syntsui

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,872
I'm having a blast wasting my time in AC Odyssey right now. It's been two weeks already and I can't stop loving every second of it.

OHHH THE HORROR!!!!!
 

-Tetsuo-

Unlimited Capacity
Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,559
Uhh no. Most normal people will just stop playing when they think they got their fill.
 

Deleted member 55524

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 31, 2019
693
Isn't this problem exclusive to Ubisoft games? "Ruining games" is a big claim when the author is only talking about one company.
 

AntiMacro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,135
Alberta
I can't believe companies that are doing ongoing support - and not trivial support at that - for their games are now the villains here, not the ones that release a game and after a couple months have passed act like it never existed and move on to the next thing you should buy.
 

TooBusyLookinGud

Graphics Engineer
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
7,937
California
I can't believe companies that are doing ongoing support - and not trivial support at that - for their games are now the villains here, not the ones that release a game and after a couple months have passed act like it never existed and move on to the next thing you should buy.
Shit is insane man. I can't wrap my head around the complaint. Just stop playing it or don't buy it to begin with. I stopped playing Persona 5 because I didn't want to continue after 60hrs. I finished Valhalla and Odyssey because I wanted to and it took over a year because i paced myself; I wanted to do everything. What about Persona 4 and 5? They are way longer than Valhalla to beat the main storyline.

howlongtobeat.com

How long is Persona 5? | HowLongToBeat

How long is Persona 5? HowLongToBeat has the answer. Create a backlog, submit your game times and compete with your friends!

howlongtobeat.com

How long is Assassin's Creed Valhalla? | HowLongToBeat

How long is Assassin's Creed Valhalla? HowLongToBeat has the answer. Create a backlog, submit your game times and compete with your friends!
 

Deleted member 102658

User requested account closure
Banned
Sep 16, 2021
37
It's the main reason I've not played any big Ubisoft title since Far Cry 3. I would not care if the gameplay loop justifies it, but they're so boring these days.
 

NuncaBob

Member
Dec 2, 2020
201
Eorzea
I agree with OP. This is one reason why I'd much prefer another The Last of Us or Uncharted instead of another Assassin's Creed. I played a LOT of Valhalla and it just felt like nothing was ever accomplished or done. There story did end but it never felt like any sort of true narrative completion.
 

RavenK92

Member
Nov 3, 2020
799
Porque no los dos? There doesn't have to be just one thing ruining gaming at any given time. Games designed to super monetize everything and make you either grind forever or utilize MTX, games that should be 20 hours but have massive empty maps with hundreds of icons to go collect just so it can market itself as a 100 hour experience (not games like Persona 5 Royal that have legit over 120 hours of content), NFTs, games that release annually with barebones innovation, non-FTP games with ads, games that make progression impossible if you don't complete X amount of challenges per day. All of these things (and probably many more) are absolutely terrible for gaming and are ruining the pastime. It's a slippery slope where companies will keep on normalizing terrible new things that degrade the experience of gaming with the sole purpose of $$$
 

thewienke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,930
It may be whataboutism, but there's a salient point there. On the topic of empty, repetitive bloat, this article is just one more pandering, gamer outrage stoking piece that points fingers at targets 'gamers' already hate while avoiding well liked franchises guilty of the same sin. Wow! DAE hate Fortnite??? Anyone else also hate Assassin's Creed???

This.

Breath of the Wild has a lot in common with AC: Odyssey and Immortals Fenyx Rising but you rarely hear people complaining about the former. Unless someone wants to seriously tell me that BOTW doesn't have bloat.
 

Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,786
Then stop playing them
and stop talking about them all the time
and stop turning every conversation about a non AAA game into "Is this game REALLY worth 60-70 bucks?"
and stop ignoring coverage on games that are currently out to endlessly speculate about the newest Final Fantasy of War Duty XVIIIVIVIX that isn't coming out for another 10 years

And no, microtransactions still suck.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,426
That entire article reeks of FOMO in times of newfound social obligation.

Just because YOU aren't looking for an 80 hour game doesn't mean that other people aren't.
 

Mórríoghain

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,144
What?

I sinked over 300 hours to the latest three Ass games, never did any of the "daily" quests or bought anything from the shop and managed to squeeze amazing enjoyement from them.

Do people really want that absolutely horrendous combat and exploration mechanics from the earlier Ass games to come back, like really?
 

Dabanton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,910
Ruining is a strong term.

But I personally no longer buy certain games as I know they will he a timesink and I quite frankly don't have the time these days for any game longer than 30 hrs.

Or I skip all the side stuff and focus on the main story so I can get it done.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,426
What?

I sinked over 300 hours to the latest three Ass games, never did any of the "daily" quests or bought anything from the shop and managed to squeeze amazing enjoyement from them.

Do people really want that absolutely horrendous combat and exploration mechanics from the earlier Ass games to come back, like really?

They honestly don't care, but they don't want to be left out of the dicussion because they didn't have 85 hours to sink into a campaign. It's never been about MTX or subscriptions or daily quests padding things out, it's the fact that, with their lives being the way they are, those games can't be part of the narrative because there's simply too much of it. AssCree Origins, Odyssey and Valhalla are great games and they are frustrated that in order to see them to their conclusion, MTX's or not, they're going to be spending 80-100 hours a pop on each, and that's frustrating. It's 100% FOMO.

But that's also not on the developers. One Piece is in a similar situation where if you want to read or watch it, you'll be spending weeks of time to get caught up.
 

disparate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,904
Why don't people just play what they want then check out...? You never have to return to a game, you don't have to do dailies or whatever nonsense, just play the MSQ and quit.
 

jdmc13

Member
Mar 14, 2019
2,885
Haven't played Valhalla, but I have played Odyssey and Origins. Origins was good about respecting your time grinding, but Odyssey was very much not. I've heard better things about Valhalla though.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,383
Most of the content in Valhalla is trash filler that doesn't respect your time. Even the main quest is full of side plots that go nowhere.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,732
I had a pretty busy year and not as much time for video games when Valhalla came out and honestly it was kind of nice having one long game I would put a couple hours into her and there. I know it's not for everyone, and if I had more free time I would have enjoyed multiple games, but I see the appeal. (Also when I was a kid I only got like one game a year)