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Jiffy Smooth

Member
Dec 12, 2018
462
The funny part is this: even though everyone says Valve's reliance on algorithms is the problem, imagine how much worse this would be if it wasn't an algorithm deciding these things. I shudder to think how bad the pile-on would be if there was an actual human face to blame for any perceived damage to indie devs' business. (Especially since, as people have said, there naturally have to be winners and losers in these situations.)
 

EloKa

GSP
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,905
Strange, just saw a Kotaku article about the exact same topic with the exact same notion that Steam = Bad. You'll never guess the author.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
Strange, just saw a Kotaku article about the exact same topic with the exact same notion that Steam = Bad. You'll never guess the author.

Yeah I saw that one just pop lol

I am 100% not down with saying it's a bad change yet. It'll obvious get iterated/modified time and time again as it goes on
 

dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,634
Tel Aviv
Honestly, I think Valve needs to start thinking of ways to have more ads for Steam games. When you have so few places to show your game, and so many contenders for each place, it's impossible to get noticed. Even at the price of the cleanliness of the store, IMO.
 

Deleted member 2840

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,400
This algorithm update is actually a direct attack on the EGS and Tim.
Think about it. Games that aren't released yet aren't getting wishlisted as much.
Tim was using the wishlist rankings on Steam to nab games.
Now he can't grab those unreleased, highly wishlisted games anymore. A game needs to be released or close to release to start getting attention, and by that time exclusivity deals won't work anymore.
#BELIEVE
 

EloKa

GSP
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,905
I am 100% not down with saying it's a bad change yet. It'll obvious get iterated/modified time and time again as it goes on
I guess the closest thing that we can compare it to is the Google algorithm which also gets modified on a daily basis. People also complained about reduced visibility within searches and Google listend, so we're still using the same algorithms like in 2010. Or we came up with SEO (Search Engine Optimization). One of both happened.
 

Spectone

Member
Honestly, I think Valve needs to start thinking of ways to have more ads for Steam games. When you have so few places to show your game, and so many contenders for each place, it's impossible to get noticed. Even at the price of the cleanliness of the store, IMO.
My problem is that either game ads take up too much space or they are relegated to a list with tiny icons. Maybe they could copy the banner at the top of the page for new releases. Currently the new releases section sucks once you get past the front page.
 

Ionic

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,734
This algorithm update is actually a direct attack on the EGS and Tim.
Think about it. Games that aren't released yet aren't getting wishlisted as much.
Tim was using the wishlist rankings on Steam to nab games.
Now he can't grab those unreleased, highly wishlisted games anymore. A game needs to be released or close to release to start getting attention, and by that time exclusivity deals won't work anymore.
#BELIEVE

Actual indie devs beat you to the punch.

 

Sandersson

Banned
Feb 5, 2018
2,535
Honestly, I think Valve needs to start thinking of ways to have more ads for Steam games. When you have so few places to show your game, and so many contenders for each place, it's impossible to get noticed. Even at the price of the cleanliness of the store, IMO.
Oh yeah, lets turn Steam into youtube. Want to see your library? Two five second adds incoming! Want to browse another game? Boom two adds. Reading the reviews? Not before seeing these adds! And after all that, the people who would not end up on those adds (and there would be a bazillion of them) would continue whining that they are not there.
Actual indie devs beat you to the punch.
All this crying about an inevitable problem (which will also one day affect EGS.. that is if they decide there enough worthy indies who deserve the keys to the kingdom) really makes it hard to cheer for indie developers.
 
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dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,634
Tel Aviv
My problem is that either game ads take up too much space or they are relegated to a list with tiny icons. Maybe they could copy the banner at the top of the page for new releases. Currently the new releases section sucks once you get past the front page.
Honestly, I'd insert a couple of small personalized capsules/banners in every free space I could get away with, put a couple in the Steam overlay even, in Chat windows, grow impressions to the sky.
 

MrHedin

Member
Dec 7, 2018
6,812


I'm reading this and it makes sense and I don't see how it's really surprising. The game gets a bump in wishlists from Gamescom which makes sense as that's a big marketing time. A couple of weeks later it would have likely already been stabilizing from whatever bump it got from Gamescom and then the algorithm changes to (seemingly) favor released games more. I don't see anything really unreasonable about this situation unless I am totally missing something.

I checked my front page and discover lists and things seem pretty similar to what I would expect to see. I did have a few more of the big popular games in my first discover too but it had also been awhile since I did one.
 

EloKa

GSP
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,905
I think indie devs need to realise that marketing is not Steam's job.
To be fair: the 30% Steam cut also pays for several different marketing instruments within Steam.
But people can't demand a prime marketing spot (like the landing page or beeing in every discovery queue) because "visibility" is a finite resource.
 

Icemonk191

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,814
Like how this has nothing to do with the EGS yet some of y'all can't help but make asses of yourself.
 

XR.

Member
Nov 22, 2018
6,578
Feels like I hear this every time they do some changes to their storefront?
That's par for the course since there's always one side that will observe less sales, while another observes more sales.

It's a problem if overall sales is lower but, naturally, only Valve can tell if that's the case.
 

PepsimanVsJoe

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,122
I was thinking more along the lines of Twitch, Youtube, Twitter, etc. Places that have far more reach and substance than Steam store pages.
Streamers and Youtubers are only going to broadcast games that are guaranteed to boost their view/subscriber count.
99% of Indie devs don't have a chance.
 

Hamchan

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,964
Seems fair. Someone always loses out in the market and the algorithm has to benefit someone at the expense of others. That's basic logic when we have limited time and money. From my position as a customer I would much rather have games that are already out getting the attention than unreleased games.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,511
All this crying about an inevitable problem (which will also one day affect EGS.. that is if they decide there enough worthy indies who deserve the keys to the kingdom) really makes it hard to cheer for indie developers.

Right?

"Market me or I'll go to Epic" lmao, just go (if they want you, of course)
 

SteveWinwood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,676
USA USA USA
Honestly, I'd insert a couple of small personalized capsules/banners in every free space I could get away with, put a couple in the Steam overlay even, in Chat windows, grow impressions to the sky.
everyone would hate that

customers despise ads
the devs would complain about how they have to "bribe" valve to get people to see their game and how they're just taking more money from them
 

ChippyTurtle

Banned
Oct 13, 2018
4,773
Very unfortunate to hear. It's difficult, on one hand this is good for the public, on the other I would like to know about unreleased games too. No right or wrong here, just winners and losers at the whim of Steam, but someone always has to lose, it's the nature of the market.
 

TacoSupreme

Member
Jul 26, 2019
1,714
Edited to remove some antagonistic wording. Sympathies to these people, but it's a shame that right now things are so shit in the PC gaming world that every change seems to be taken as an attack on one dev/fanbase/etc or another, instantly leading to bloody-shirt-waving about how badly they've been maimed by one party or another, even if we're talking about unreleased games.
 
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Nacho

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,110
NYC
Well it makes sense if the games they show change, some games will just get different (worse) recs from it.

The tweet itself says the reports are inconsistent.

There's just so many games on there, the only metric that really matters for those algorithms is if they're working well for the customer, I don't think devs and publishers can rely on them as a source of income.
 

Hoa

Member
Jun 6, 2018
4,296
Wait, so only the wishlisting for unreleased games dropped? Once the game releases or is close to release, won't it get a bigger push in the recommended section now? Just seems like to algorithm changed to promote smaller games customers can buy right now, rather than wishlist and wait until later.
 

FF Seraphim

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,700
Tokyo
Wait are the one complaining are thd same ones who don't even have a release date for their game? Why should their game be highlighted over ones who just released or are about to be released?
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
Seems fair. Someone always loses out in the market and the algorithm has to benefit someone at the expense of others. That's basic logic when we have limited time and money. From my position as a customer I would much rather have games that are already out getting the attention than unreleased games.
I think these indie devs were hoping that it'd be at the expense of AAA's. But that's putting Valve into an unrealistic position.
 

bobnowhere

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,526
Elsewhere for 8 minutes
The more like this section has been largely nonsense for ages. It relies on data, people playing these small Indies in concert with the larger games, adding tags custom and from the devs. If your game isn't out yet, how would an algorithm match you to Darkest Dungeon or Limbo or something else? I do wonder if valve could set up some sort of voluntary matching system in steam labs. Say, when you post a review you can secretly add 3...ish games that are most like the game and Steam can use that to refine matching. Of course it could be gamed but it could be worth a try. Also, make a damn demo for your game.

After browsing through some games it does seem to be matching better now.
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,949
New release indies are seeing a jump, and that's what matters. They should be rewarded for following through with their Steam release.

Why increase visibility of unreleased games in the current climate where they advertise on Steam, and then jump to Epic once money's waved around?

I see no problem with this.
 

Khrol

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,179
Kinda over indie devs bitching about Steam on Twitter. A lot of them come across as entitled twats tbh.
 

Bjones

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,622
As a steam user, I'd rather see games that are already out, that I can play now instead of a bunch of unreleased games. Maybe there should be an option. Show me only released games, or only show me unreleased games.

Yeah same here.
also I don't buy indie games on a whim from the store front. If it's good and causes a buzz I'll check it out.
 

justiceiro

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
6,664
Well, a algorithm that try to fir our tastes will only you show games similar to those you alreadly tried. Something completely new will show in noone list.

That said, that line about"some remained the same and some got higher" sound exactly like what was supposed to do. Is there any solid base for this article at all?

so its better for customers, not for indie devs?

can't say i think thats a big deal. Valve cant be expected to be your game's entire marketing push. Cant rely on an algorithm to sell your product.
This too.
 

Ferrio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,047
Feels like I hear this every time they do some changes to their storefront?

As you should. If views decrease, they increase somewhere else. There's always going to be someone upset, cause unfortunately not everyone can be a winner when the market is so saturated.

Everyone is upset about discoverability but only when it pertains to their game.
 

inner-G

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
14,473
PNW
I'd rather see games that are out.

I don't really see the point of pre-ordering a digital game... and I hate those games that are out but in 'early access' for like 3 years lol.
 

Miker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,013
Honestly, I'm not sure Valve's algorithms are that much better or worse than any other platforms. Look at Netflix - if you watch cooking shows, it'll recommend more cooking shows, and usually the more popular ones or the newer/trending ones. Netflix also doesn't have to deal with unreleased games - they have a message saying "new episodes coming soon," and that's it, which is so much simpler. Steam has limited space to advertise games in the "more like this category," even with a scrollbar for more entries, and tbh I can understand why Valve would want to highlight more recently released games, especially when they allow very nebulous freetext release dates like "when it's done."