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Dashful

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,401
Canada
We need more researches like this. Hopefully the lootbox is not gambling / not a problem brigade can acknowledge this for once. But who am I kidding.

["Spending money on loot boxes is linked to problem gambling. The more money people spend on loot boxes, the more severe their problem gambling is. This isn't just my research. This is an effect that has been replicated numerous times across the world by multiple independent labs," Zendle said. "This is something the games industry does not engage with."


"This is so important. It's not something we should trivialize or laugh at or compare to baseball cards. This is life or death."

The question of whether loot boxes are a gateway into other forms of problem gambling, or if people who have gambling problems to start with are naturally drawn to loot boxes, remains unanswered, and it could work both ways. But in Zendle's opinion, it doesn't really matter in any practical sense.

"In either case, it's a clear cause for concern and not something to be trivialized. In one case, you have a mechanism in games that many children play that is literally causing a state of affairs that is enormously destructive. And if loot boxes do cause problem gambling, we're looking at an epidemic of problem gambling the scale of which the world has never seen," he said.

"And if that's not true—and I'm totally open to that not being true—then you've got a system in which game companies are differentially profiting from the most vulnerable of their consumers. Problem gamblers already have enormous issues in their lives. They don't need to have their money taken away from them through this as well."


More at the link.
https://www.pcgamer.com/loot-boxes-...r-death-for-problem-gamblers-says-researcher/
 

Freki

Alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20
I hope loot boxes in games will be regulated as strictly as gambling one day. Or even better just perish...
 

TripaSeca

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,762
São Paulo
It's great that serious researchers are investigating this.
We desperately need authoritative arguments on these questions to counter the industry's lobby and corporate bullshit.
 

thonerayman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,801
I'm not a problem gambler (maybe because I avoid gambling like it's the plague) but I've had a drinking problem since I was a teen. I've been sober for 5+ years now. In the last month I've had to uninstall Black Ops 4 because I was buying stupid boxes trying to unlock stuff in blackout. I never spent more than 10 bucks at a time but I was doing it way way to often and that money was adding up. When I checked my bank account one day I was like.. Woah.. I've got 8 on ending charges from Xbox live.. Then I went back and looked and I had done that way more times than I'd like to admit. It was to much and I had to stop. A game I had sunk literally 200+ hours in and was still enjoying I had to get rid of because I was to tempted to spend money. And this is coming from someone who had at least somewhat of a handle on their addictive tendencies.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,584
I think many people assumed there was a link. There is a bigger issue that doesn't appear to be answered, whether they are a cause.

"In either case, it's a clear cause for concern and not something to be trivialized. In one case, you have a mechanism in games that many children play that is literally causing a state of affairs that is enormously destructive. And if loot boxes do cause problem gambling, we're looking at an epidemic of problem gambling the scale of which the world has never seen," he said.

"And if that's not true—and I'm totally open to that not being true—then you've got a system in which game companies are differentially profiting from the most vulnerable of their consumers. Problem gamblers already have enormous issues in their lives. They don't need to have their money taken away from them through this as well."

It seems like to me there is a little bit of a bias going on. Doesn't seem like he cares if there is just a correlation or if there is actual causation which are two big different things. A correlation *could* simply mean people who are already gamblers are negatively affected. Causation would mean it's actually making people into developing a gambling addiction. Both are bad scenarios but one can be handled different than the other. Causation would likely need to be heavily regulated. I think it does matter.

Also, I think he is being a bit dramatic by saying it's not like baseball cards, it's life or death. I totally get it. Just came off weird.
 

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
Glad to see this work being done. Loot boxes need to disappear. Absolutely worthless.
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
23,611
"we shouldn't compare these to baseball cards"

Wot? Its literally the same thing. Its the same exact concept.
 
May 21, 2018
2,024
I'm guilty of spending more money than I should've into gacha games, and I'd love to see real work be done to regulate these things, and maybe one day get rid of these things forever.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,711
"we shouldn't compare these to baseball cards"

Wot? Its literally the same thing. Its the same exact concept.
Baseball cards can at least be traded and sold because they are tangible objects with real-world value. Lootboxes are money sinks because the items found within are self-admittedly worthless.

They're not the same situation.
 

Mr_DyZ

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Jun 12, 2019
776
I'm spending $40 on lootboxes right now, and no one is going to stop me.

Well... yet.
 

Mr_DyZ

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Jun 12, 2019
776
Baseball cards can at least be traded and sold because they are tangible objects with real-world value. Lootboxes are money sinks because the items found within are self-admittedly worthless.

They're not the same situation.

What about CS GO lootboxes? Can't items in there be traded/purchased for real money? I thought that's how it worked at least, or used to.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,584
Baseball cards can at least be traded and sold because they are tangible objects with real-world value. Lootboxes are money sinks because the items found within are self-admittedly worthless.

They're not the same situation.

If the issue is on addictive correlation or causation etc., I am not sure it matters whether the items have some future financial value or not. But I think that would lend more danger to cards or items that can be traded because I would imagine you have a higher hit of dopamine, or higher likelihood of feeding the gambling addiction, when there is bigger gains/losses on the line. Of course, I think individual results can very greatly.
 

Mathieran

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,863
I don't mind developers having MTX in general, like the ability to buy cosmetic stuff. But you should just be able to buy the thing(s) you want straight up. Loot boxes are garbage. So far I have avoided them completely.
 

Andri

Member
Mar 20, 2018
6,017
Switzerland
Research done by people that predetermine the outcome to fit their likes are worthless.

The researcher says there is no proven evidence that lootboxes cause problem gambling, but that it does not matter what the outcome will be, basically saying "i dont like thing, so any research not fitting my view does not matter".
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,711
What about CS GO lootboxes? Can't items in there be traded/purchased for real money? I thought that's how it worked at least, or used to.
I have no idea about CS GO lootboxes as they stand today. I do remember they could be financially traded, but after that Youtuber scandal Jim Sterling covered I don't know if that's changed.

If the issue is on addictive correlation or causation etc., I am not sure it matters whether the items have some future financial value or not. But I think that would lend more danger to cards or items that can be traded because I would imagine you have a higher hit of dopamine, or higher likelihood of feeding the gambling addiction, when there is bigger gains/losses on the line. Of course, I think individual results can very greatly.
Are there bigger gains and losses on the line with baseball cards when it seems the most valuable ones are out-of-print rarities anyway? Also, it's not like baseball cards engage in slimy advertising practices. There's no flashy colors and bright lights, no seasonal items, no FOMO, no (as far as I know) social hierarchal aspect to the acquisition of items therein. They're just...baseball cards.
 

Deleted member 1656

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,474
So-Cal
Personally, I've looked at other studies, and I think it's fine. I mean, have any of you actually tried downloading a loot box? I thought it was pretty fun and it didn't feel like gambling at all. I mean, I won something. When you gamble, there's a chance you lose something and I didn't lose anything. I only gained a skin for my P226. And who's to say digital items are worthless? Worth is relative, right? Again, I thought it was a fun or worthwhile experience and the skin on my P226 feels good play with.
 

Matty H

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,107
Glad to see this work being done. Loot boxes need to disappear. Absolutely worthless.
Hear, hear!

Worthless to game likers and ruinous to game design but the problem is that publishers like those wads of cash, even if it comes from vulnerable people who can't help themselves.
 

Zonal Hertz

Banned
Jun 13, 2018
1,079
Personally, I've looked at other studies, and I think it's fine. I mean, have any of you actually tried downloading a loot box? I thought it was pretty fun and it didn't feel like gambling at all. I mean, I won something. When you gamble, there's a chance you lose something and I didn't lose anything. I only gained a skin for my P226. And who's to say digital items are worthless? Worth is relative, right? Again, I thought it was a fun or worthwhile experience and the skin on my P226 feels good play with.

But most skins are duplicates of common skins in a lot of scenarios...
 

Dr. Mario

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,885
Netherlands
"we shouldn't compare these to baseball cards"

Wot? Its literally the same thing. Its the same exact concept.
giphy.gif


In contrast to baseball cards, lootboxes:
  • Have a higher rate of play
  • Have audiovisually stimulating jackpot effects
  • Provide near misses
  • Can be adjusted before opening
  • Can be adjusted based on prior behavior (Characters more played, time spent looking at specifc potential rewards, potentially also voice/text chat keywords).
  • Can be adjusted based on prior purchases
  • Lack oversight in rate of purchase
  • Lack oversight in age of buyer
  • Are infinite
  • Are not a zero-sum game
  • Cannot be bought separately
  • Cannot be traded

I swear, in every thread...
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 36086

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 13, 2017
897
I have no idea about CS GO lootboxes as they stand today. I do remember they could be financially traded, but after that Youtuber scandal Jim Sterling covered I don't know if that's changed.


Are there bigger gains and losses on the line with baseball cards when it seems the most valuable ones are out-of-print rarities anyway? Also, it's not like baseball cards engage in slimy advertising practices. There's no flashy colors and bright lights, no seasonal items, no FOMO, no (as far as I know) social hierarchal aspect to the acquisition of items therein. They're just...baseball cards.

As someone who spent a lot of money collecting baseball cards for many years, I can tell you that loot boxes work exactly like baseball cards. FOMO aspect is there because cards have a finite print run. No social aspect but the driver for buying packs of cards is to pull a card that is worth a lot more than what you paid for the pack. That makes baseball cards worse than lootboxes because you have that mentality that you can make your money back if you get lucky on the next pack.
 
OP
OP
Dashful

Dashful

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,401
Canada
giphy.gif


In contrast to baseball cards, lootboxes:
  • Have a higher rate of play
  • Have audiovisually stimulating jackpot effects
  • Provide near misses
  • Can be adjusted before opening
  • Can be adjusted based on prior purchases
  • Lack oversight in rate of purchase
  • Lack oversight in age of buyer
  • Are infinite
  • Are not a zero-sum game
  • Cannot be bought separately
  • Cannot be traded

I swear, in every thread...

You forgot, "Can be adjusted based on user behavior". (Characters more played, time spent looking at specifc potential rewards, potentially also voice/text chat keywords).
 

Inugami

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,995
"we shouldn't compare these to baseball cards"

Wot? Its literally the same thing. Its the same exact concept.
Baseball cards you have to get dressed, turn on your vehicle, go to a store, buy the packs or boxes, are limited by the inventory the store has unless you want to drive to another place, etc etc. There is natural delay between the desire and the payoff and a hard limit to how much you can get at once. Lootboxes have none of that, and have tiered "deals" that incentivize passing more and more in a single sitting with no way to cancel or return unopened items if you change your mind.
 

Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,785
Detroit, MI
"we shouldn't compare these to baseball cards"

Wot? Its literally the same thing. Its the same exact concept.

Baseball or any trading cards don't exist within a system specifically design to psychologically manipulate you into buying more. There is also a lot more steps involved in purchasing them instead of how lootboxes are always present if you're involved with whatever property they are attached to and your wallet is always there to make spontaneous purchases. They exist as their own entity and lootboxes exist as a part of systems designed to sell them to you.

Another result of this and the live services that lootboxes are attached to is that companies can constantly tweak things under your nose.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
You forgot, "Can be adjusted based on user behavior". (Characters more played, time spent looking at specifc potential rewards, potentially also voice/text chat keywords).
This is something that should have been a cause for concern for years now, since we don't know the odds, etc., and have to rely on a big company to be trustworthy to not fix the game in the house's favor and commit frauds. And now there's an investigation going that some may have worked with streamers and fixed the odds to better benefit the streamer advertising their game and its lootboxes which is a form of fraud to make the odds appear better than they are.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
It feels like it to vulnerable people.
Everyone deserves leisure time and people with gambling addiction often are encouraged to find things to take up that time and energy they spent on gambling. Many of them turn to videogames only to be propelled right back into the vicious cycle.
please explain what you're trying to be snarky about here. I'm curious.
You can't say it's a "life or death" issue and then cop out when someone asks where the death is.
 

EloquentM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,631
Addiction doesn't always mean death, but addiction does mean you'll eventually feel like you want to die.
 

Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,785
Detroit, MI
You can't say it's a "life or death" issue and then cop out when someone asks where the death is.
What's the point in being Private Pedantic here? Obviously it's a euphemism used to describe how dire the situation is. Even then who's to say that lootboxes don't send someone down a spiral that could inevitably lead to their deaths?
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
For some people believe it or not yes.

But hey continue to blow off gambling addiction.
As someone who lives off of disability checks, yes. It can be very easy to go overboard and have little left in the bank if you're not careful.
Keep on reading though. "Problem gamblers" also report spending an average of $20-$139 per month on non-lootbox in-game transactions. If they're so hard up for money, why are they spending so much on straightforward purchases? If you can spend $120 on micro transactions are you really that desperate for money? How are lootboxes a life or death issue when more money is actually being spent on DLC and cosmetics and add-ons?
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
Keep on reading though. "Problem gamblers" also report spending an average of $20-$139 per month on non-lootbox in-game transactions. If they're so hard up for money, why are they spending so much on straightforward purchases? If you can spend $120 on micro transactions are you really that desperate for money? How are lootboxes a life or death issue when more money is actually being spent on DLC and cosmetics and add-one?
So what you're saying is it's there fault.

I think there a term for that? Rhymes with mictim glaming?
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
So what you're saying is it's there fault.

I think there a term for that? Rhymes with mictim glaming?
Nope. Just saying that $60 spent on lootboxes probably isn't killing a player, especially if they have an additional $140 each month that they are already spending on other superfluous digital goods. It was already kind of dubious to say that lootboxes were life-and-death, but even more so when you consider that more money is actually being spent on other digital items.
 

bytesized

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,882
Amsterdam
It's 100% gambling, I'm all for banning them completely. Microtransactions for purely cosmetics stuff is ok though. If you're one of those idiots that spend thousands of bucks to have all outfits so that you can see a bit more clearly the crotch of your virtual waifus then you probably deserve to be stripped from all your money.
 

EloquentM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,631
Keep on reading though. "Problem gamblers" also report spending an average of $20-$139 per month on non-lootbox in-game transactions. If they're so hard up for money, why are they spending so much on straightforward purchases? If you can spend $120 on micro transactions are you really that desperate for money? How are lootboxes a life or death issue when more money is actually being spent on DLC and cosmetics and add-ons?
lmao