• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Status
Not open for further replies.

matimeo

UI/UX Game Industry Veteran
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
979
Ah, yeah, that's true. Clean forgot about all the car licenses, which is the whole point of GT, as well as everything else you mention.

Still doesn't excuse the lack of Demon's Souls though. :p

Yeah I'm a huge racing fan so it really hurts lol.

I am very glad Microsoft stopped with releases like this and Forza 6 Apex. I don't get what they were thinking, giving PC players bite-sized demo versions of their games. Such a weird move, like they were giving us table scraps.

Forza Apex Team member here

The point of this is to quickly learn about PC, T10 engine was for console only not to mention the UI work we had to do for PC support. Even the cars can be driven by keyboard even more work for a game tuned for controller.

It was also to begin working with the Windows team. Microsoft is a big your team priorities may not align with another so the sooner you can begin to engage the better.

This was done to ensure a successful launch for Horizon 4 and Motorsport 7. Lots of learnings gained on Apex and work so the core titles wouldn't have to worry about it as they prepared to release on PC.

Saved both products a ton of time and is a great example of solid development leadership.
 

bmdubya

Member
Nov 1, 2017
6,499
Colorado
Yeah I'm a huge racing fan so it really hurts lol.



Forza Apex Team member here

The point of this is to quickly learn about PC, T10 engine was for console only not to mention the UI work we had to do for PC support. Even the cars can be driven by keyboard even more work for a game tuned for controller.

It was also to begin working with the Windows team. Microsoft is a big your team priorities may not align with another so the sooner you can begin to engage the better.

This was done to ensure a successful launch for Horizon 4 and Motorsport 7. Lots of learnings gained on Apex and work so the core titles wouldn't have to worry about it as they prepared to release on PC.

Saved both products a ton of time and is a great example of solid development leadership.
Thanks for this post, especially the part about different teams within Microsoft. I think it's easy for us to forget that Microsoft is a giant company with multiple teams trying to accomplish multiple goals, and so we get angry when things don't end up exactly how we want it. But as someone who worked in a big corporation with multiple teams, each team was unique and had their strengths and weaknesses. Its easy to forget that, especially when it comes to a company that sells products the general public can buy.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,214
Forza Apex Team member here

The point of this is to quickly learn about PC, T10 engine was for console only not to mention the UI work we had to do for PC support. Even the cars can be driven by keyboard even more work for a game tuned for controller.

It was also to begin working with the Windows team. Microsoft is a big your team priorities may not align with another so the sooner you can begin to engage the better.

This was done to ensure a successful launch for Horizon 4 and Motorsport 7. Lots of learnings gained on Apex and work so the core titles wouldn't have to worry about it as they prepared to release on PC.

Saved both products a ton of time and is a great example of solid development leadership.

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the insight.
 

marcbret87

Member
Apr 20, 2018
1,367
Yeah I don't understand it either. I've been trying to make this argument about Sony games coming to PC. I'd love to play Spider-Man and God of War, but not enough to buy a PS4, so they get $0 from me. If they released on PC, they'd get $120 from me, so now there is a new revenue source. And I know I'm not alone when it comes to the PC crowd with this thinking. But PlayStation fanboys have to justify their $400 purchase, so this line of thinking makes no sense to them.

Sony is selling software that makes people buy their hardware. Releasing their games on PC would clearly undermine this whole strategy. While they might get 0 from you they'll likely get $400 from someone else, and if you invest this amount of money you are likely some more of their exclusive software. I can see how for Microsoft it makes sense to release their games on PC given the foothold they have there, but I don't think it would make sense for Sony. Same thing for Nintendo.

Now, them putting the games on a service like PSNow that can be accessed from PC a few years after release makes sense.
 

zkylon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,636
KjvZtVN.png


hmmm

ok i'll get back to you once i finish the other 3 endings lol
 

bmdubya

Member
Nov 1, 2017
6,499
Colorado
Sony is selling software that makes people buy their hardware. Releasing their games on PC would clearly undermine this whole strategy. While they might get 0 from you they'll likely get $400 from someone else, and if you invest this amount of money you are likely some more of their exclusive software. I can see how for Microsoft it makes sense to release their games on PC given the foothold they have there, but I don't think it would make sense for Sony. Same thing for Nintendo.

Now, them putting the games on a service like PSNow that can be accessed from PC a few years after release makes sense.
But we see all the time how people say they will still purchase consoles because of the convenience factor. It isn't like people would stop buying PlayStations if Sony released their first party games on PC.

Also, PSNow is trash and is not an acceptable substitute at all for plaything PlayStation games on PC.
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,570
So Ninja got $1M to stream Apex Legends. And Epic is sending indie devs to persons like him to promote their games. Yeah that is not happening, they won't touch most of the smaller games without hefty payment in advance.
 

sredgrin

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,276
I really doubt their plan is "Call in Ninja." C'mon.

They are clearly aiming for a strategy like with how Dawn of Man became a surprise hit on the back of a few niche streamers. Pretty much every week there's some indie hit that gets a huge boost due to a streamer or two. Things like Human Fall Flat didn't become hits off the backs of the Ninjas of the world, but from a lot of smaller and a couple medium sized ones.

Their biggest obstacle is that the streamers and the youtubers of the world like to play to their base, and a lot the base of the average gaming channel is probably not on board with EGS.
 

GrrImAFridge

ONE THOUSAND DOLLARYDOOS
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,665
Western Australia
Yup pattern has not changed. Some of you all would be terrible at pattern identification lol.

<snip>

MS has been dumping this stuff on steam ever since the announcement. They are treating MCC as a re release so it's just like Recore Definition edition.

That's not entirely true. MCC is arguably Microsoft's first flagship WinStore release to hit Steam, Microsoft's first WinStore release in general to launch day-and-date on Steam, and the first such release to forgo Steamworks in favour of XBL integration. This isn't merely a repeat of ReCore et al.; it's Microsoft dipping its feet in the water to see if XBL-based Steam versions of its games can complement Game Pass on the PC.
 
Last edited:

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,570
I really doubt their plan is "Call in Ninja." C'mon.

They are clearly aiming for a strategy like with how Dawn of Man became a surprise hit on the back of a few niche streamers. Pretty much every week there's some indie hit that gets a huge boost due to a streamer or two. Things like Human Fall Flat didn't become hits off the backs of the Ninjas of the world, but from a lot of smaller and a couple medium sized ones.

Their biggest obstacle is that the streamers and the youtubers of the world like to play to their base, and a lot the base of the average gaming channel is probably not on board with EGS.

Goal is always to get as much people as possible to see your game. So they will always try to get biggest streamers first. Then go down until one agrees. But there is other issue, more money big streamers get, more money will all streamers want. And they will want it in advance not as % from sold copy. Most streamers won't stream a thing without payment. And they will always chose popular game to stream before they stream game for promotion.
 

Uzzy

Gabe’s little helper
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,078
Hull, UK
God help me, I was tempted last night to replay the TR trilogy. Someone put a bullet in me first please.

PoshEthicalAsiandamselfly-size_restricted.gif
 

sredgrin

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,276
Goal is always to get as much people as possible to see your game. So they will always try to get biggest streamers first. Then go down until one agrees. But there is other issue, more money big streamers get, more money will all streamers want. And they will want it in advance not as % from sold copy. Most streamers won't stream a thing without payment. And they will always chose popular game to stream before they stream game for promotion.

You are making a lot of strange assumptions. The majority of EGS store games so far are single player indie games. They aren't going to pursue a strategy that is similar to propping up the next GaaS title. There's already PR companies that do this. Do you think the devs of Dawn of Man started at Ninja and then lucked into finding strategy streamers? No, they focused the people they know would actually enjoy it and have fans that would.

They'll likely do what you are suggested for say Spellbreak (and already did IIRC), but both publishers and Epic know that the way to sell Outer Wilds or a dungeon crawler RPG like Operencia is not to court Dr Disprect.

The purpose of EGS is not to create the next Fornite, they already have that. You are acting like a company like Epic and publishers like Team 17, who have managed to turn turds like Hello Neighbor into hits are just going to flail around in the dark.
 

marcbret87

Member
Apr 20, 2018
1,367
But we see all the time how people say they will still purchase consoles because of the convenience factor. It isn't like people would stop buying PlayStations if Sony released their first party games on PC.

Also, PSNow is trash and is not an acceptable substitute at all for plaything PlayStation games on PC.

Sure, I don't actually disagree with this, I think people also believe that the Playstation brand would be strong enough to sell regardless, and that console gamers would not suddenly move to PC in large numbers. But I guess Sony wants the added value of having their renowned first party output exclusively in their hardware and their store.

And yeah, PC ports would obviously be much better, but PSNow is the only option right now if you don't wanna buy their hardware.
 

Uzzy

Gabe’s little helper
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,078
Hull, UK

Rosenkrantz

Member
Jan 17, 2018
4,917
I feel like Superman playing Destiny 2 on PC. No matter there I shoot the bullet always finds mob's head. Never managed to play much of the original (ain't paying for gold unless they have games I want) but D2 is pretty damn good for mindlessly killing shit in sci-fi environment.

That being said, for some reason Battle.Net download speed is almost two times slower than any other client I use, waiting for D2 to finish its download was a torture (the bastard is prolly the biggest game on my system not counting TESO).
 

Clowns

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,858
Do console makers actually make money selling consoles? I remember during the 360/PS3 days that they would sell consoles at a loss so they could sell accessories/online services.
I understood Sony's strategy to be, develop games that move systems>people buy third party games for the system they already own, which Sony gets a cut of.
So, you might buy two of their games, but you'll just buy all your non-Sony games on a non-Sony platform, which they get no money from. And thus, Playstation exclusives to move systems.
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,570
You are making a lot of strange assumptions. The majority of EGS store games so far are single player indie games. They aren't going to pursue a strategy that is similar to propping up the next GaaS title. There's already PR companies that do this. Do you think the devs of Dawn of Man started at Ninja and then lucked into finding strategy streamers? No, they focused the people they know would actually enjoy it and have fans that would.

They'll likely do what you are suggested for say Spellbreak (and already did IIRC), but both publishers and Epic know that the way to sell Outer Wilds or a dungeon crawler RPG like Operencia is not to court Dr Disprect.

The purpose of EGS is not to create the next Fornite, they already have that. You are acting like a company like Epic and publishers like Team 17, who have managed to turn turds like Hello Neighbor into hits are just going to flail around in the dark.

I just don't see streamers as viable and sustainable way for indie developers to promote their games.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,078
You are making a lot of strange assumptions. The majority of EGS store games so far are single player indie games. They aren't going to pursue a strategy that is similar to propping up the next GaaS title. There's already PR companies that do this. Do you think the devs of Dawn of Man started at Ninja and then lucked into finding strategy streamers? No, they focused the people they know would actually enjoy it and have fans that would.

They'll likely do what you are suggested for say Spellbreak (and already did IIRC), but both publishers and Epic know that the way to sell Outer Wilds or a dungeon crawler RPG like Operencia is not to court Dr Disprect.

The purpose of EGS is not to create the next Fornite, they already have that. You are acting like a company like Epic and publishers like Team 17, who have managed to turn turds like Hello Neighbor into hits are just going to flail around in the dark.

I just don't see streamers as viable and sustainable way for indie developers to promote their games.

Hello Neighbor success was due to flailing in the dark. It was just the perfect Streamer-bait game in a period without that much Streamer-bait game.

The main issue with games and streamers is courting the wrong ones. Most games try to court the big hitters instead of focusing on the ones that actually matter for their game. Big streamers are never going to be the first one to jump into your game (unless you really pay them) because they are making a lot more money in their current set-up.
Small but focused on a genre streamers are the ones you should court and try to get on your side. If you involve them from an early option, they will play the game because they enjoy it and because they know their audience will enjoy it, creating for a long lasting success (instead of a 1 week explosion of support followed by an instant drop like in most paid services).

TLDR: a succesful indie should focus on catering to the core audience of their genre and build upwards from them. Trying a catch all strategy from the beginning normally ends with most of the core audience not caring that much and not catching too many people from outside of it. Catering to the core audience also tends to give some interesting feedback that can improve the game during development.

A successful strategy is more similar to Paradox or Hollow Knight than Spellbreakers.

Edit: Also yeah, streamers should be only a part of the strategy. Focusing your game on streaming is not a solution for short story focused games because the main draw of those games is the story.
Even for game focused games, there is more work you have to do than focus on streamers (the Dawn of Man game was a success before the streamers jumped into it, because it was the FANBASE who pushed/recommended the game to the streamers!).
 

Chairmanchuck (另一个我)

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,077
China
Why would a big "one game" streamer play your game, when it is clear he will use revenue? I remember there was a time when Ninja played some other game besides Fortnite and for that day he lost half of his views or sth. like that.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,078
Why would a big "one game" streamer play your game, when it is clear he will use revenue? I remember there was a time when Ninja played some other game besides Fortnite and for that day he lost half of his views or sth. like that.
Big streamers are normally a one game guy (flocking to a more popular one / where they get more views quite fast). More mid-low lvl streamers have a smaller base but more involved in the genre / type of games he plays allowing for more involvement of the fanbase.
A succesful indie should promote through Arumba, not through Ninja (much better return from your money).
 

sredgrin

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,276
I just don't see streamers as viable and sustainable way for indie developers to promote their games.

Because you are thinking in the terms of like the huge guys.

It's going to be small to medium folks (like if you look now there's a few folks streaming a random few games with like 2k viewers) and youtube that's most effective for a lot of the games. Which is what was going on in the past for a lot of them anyway. A ton of indie games were getting a lot of their exposure through this avenue already.
 

Uzzy

Gabe’s little helper
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,078
Hull, UK
Big streamers are normally a one game guy (flocking to a more popular one / where they get more views quite fast). More mid-low lvl streamers have a smaller base but more involved in the genre / type of games he plays allowing for more involvement of the fanbase.
A succesful indie should promote through Arumba, not through Ninja (much better return from your money).

Our beautiful bald God would surely only play the highest quality strategy games.
 

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
I'm curious how big the outrage will be when the new Vampire game will be announced as an Epic Store exclusive on GDC...
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,570
Because you are thinking in the terms of like the huge guys.

It's going to be small to medium folks (like if you look now there's a few folks streaming a random few games with like 2k viewers) and youtube that's most effective for a lot of the games. Which is what was going on in the past for a lot of them anyway. A ton of indie games were getting a lot of their exposure through this avenue already.

We will see if that is enough. I don't think that streamers will solve oversaturated market.
 

Joe Spangle

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,845
https://www.pcgamer.com/tim-sweeney-microsoft-uwp-is-still-woefully-inadequate/

"Well, I should be very clear," Sweeney said. "The thing that I feel is incredibly important for the future of the industry is that the PC platform remains open, so that any user without any friction can install applications from any developer, and ensure that no company, Microsoft or anybody else, can insert themselves by force as the universal middleman, and force developers to sell through them instead of selling directly to customers.

Tim Sweeney, 2 years ago.

People should just spam that back to him on twitter everytime he tries to explain why Epic is good for us PC gamers.
 

Uzzy

Gabe’s little helper
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,078
Hull, UK
Most of them will have better writing too

Indeed! I should know.

I mean, a lot of people that say you only need to contact the streamers dont realize that half of the medium sized streamers get their game recommendations from fans... Like Dawn of Man XD

Yup, there's plenty of smaller streamers who'll play stuff that gets recommended. I often enjoyed watching DDRJake play some Nancy Drew games, for example.

I'm curious how big the outrage will be when the new Vampire game will be announced as an Epic Store exclusive on GDC...

Paradox are publishing it, and they're too invested in Steam and selling their games as widely as possible. So I strongly doubt it.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,078
Indeed! I should know.



Yup, there's plenty of smaller streamers who'll play stuff that gets recommended. I often enjoyed watching DDRJake play some Nancy Drew games, for example.



Paradox are publishing it, and they're too invested in Steam and selling their games as widely as possible. So I strongly doubt it.
It is a possibility. Sergey retweeted the announcement of the PAX presentation.

About the streamers, i think the main problem is that the focus is too much in the streamers and not in the positive feedback loop streamer-customer. Just starting by influencing the streamer will probably make it so that the customer/audience are not that interested in the game so they will drop playing it once the push ends. Games that are streamed naturally (from an audience push) normally are the ones that have success stories.
 

Memphis-Ahn

Member
Nov 7, 2017
59
We will see if that is enough. I don't think that streamers will solve oversaturated market.
Well the only way to do that is by either increasing demand or decreasing supply; so the obvious options are: forced breeding of humans like cattle and educating them in appreciating niche games (I suggest a reverse Ludovico Technique) or sending death squads to wipe out developers.
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,570
Well the only way to do that is by either increasing demand or decreasing supply; so the obvious options are: forced breeding of humans like cattle and educating them in appreciating niche games (I suggest a reverse Ludovico Technique) or sending death squads to wipe out developers.

There are too many developers going indie route. Market today is either big budget or smaller indie budget. THQ Nordic is only publisher that is currently going for that middle range. So in my opinion we need larger indie studios instead lots of smaller ones.
 

Uzzy

Gabe’s little helper
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,078
Hull, UK
Oct 26, 2017
3,201
Belarus
There is one, but that was more for when the EGS was initially announced, and it was to specifically curb things like op-eds/lots of opinion threads and the like. I don't think it's a good idea to do another one quite yet as things aren't too bad, and if something is newsworthy, it should get a thread.

My main issue is that it's very hard for me to verify the accuracy of something like, say, the Sergei Twitter stuff, or the payment processing fee stuff, because it's either incredibly difficult to parse, info is impossible to find, I have to rely on a translation, or a poster is directly involved.

tldr;

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH
Maybe you guys just need a mod who can speak russian and don't need to rely on a translation? There is probably volontuers here somewhere....
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,570
People are now reporting that they managed to get refunds from Fig for Phoenix Point and devs said that they can't do refunds through Fig. This whole situation is getting more and more messy.
 

Chance Hale

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,828
Colorado
Really sucks that great vr games like Lone Echo and Wilson's Heart are locked to the oculus store, not great for vr. Seems like enough time has passed for Oculus/fb to release them elsewhere.

Finally past where I stopped playing the normal version of Hellblade in the vr edition. Excited to see where it goes in the second half.
 

Rosenkrantz

Member
Jan 17, 2018
4,917
According to yesterday's AMA only 3% of backers requested refund for PP. Seems like the silent majority made its choice.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.