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Tombstone for Orange should say:

  • Windows ME is a good operating system

    Votes: 42 16.4%
  • UN Ambassador for PC Gaming

    Votes: 34 13.3%
  • Report this Orange man

    Votes: 10 3.9%
  • Still thinks PC Gaming is dead

    Votes: 22 8.6%
  • ༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ (I have no idea if this one is allowed)

    Votes: 57 22.3%
  • nice thread btw :)

    Votes: 91 35.5%

  • Total voters
    256
  • Poll closed .
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eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,078
https://www.resetera.com/threads/op...2-ai-vs-human-showmatches.60150/post-19810165

https://www.twitch.tv/openai

Open AI vs OG (Current Dota2 champions)



This is a great article. Covers most of what I already knew and a couple of things I didn't. Thanks.
NP, I also found it interesting on first read. The thing that reviews didnt have that much weight surprised me (but also made sense once you do enough discovery queues and you do not see thatm uch appearance difference).
 

Dan L

Tried to PM someone for a tag
Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,177
Regina, Saskatchewan
Wait, are we talking about the same Metro Exodus?
The one ditching everything that made Metro incredible and is now just an empty boring open world shooter?
I am guessing you didn't play very far in the game, the bunker section and the last level are some of the most intense metro gameplay ever.
Also 4k + Ray tracing w/ HDR looks unreal in the game.

But at the end of the day opinions are just that man.
 

Talus

Banned
Dec 9, 2017
1,386
I don't have direct links on hand, but Galyonkin (or Sweeney, and I apologise to Galyonkin if my memory is failing me) extolled the virtues of social media reach in response to people questioning or otherwise criticising the lack of a review or forum system; the implication being that Epic felt that said features would do more harm than good and the social media alternatives were satisfactory. To be fair, however, these were comments made in the very early days of the store, and we've already seen a few renegs since then (e.g. the refund policy), so it's entirely possible there has been some internal rethinking on reviews/forums, especially in light of users relying on Steam Community hubs for help and discussion in cases where the game hopped from Steam to EGS (e.g. Ashen).
To me, from what you're saying, that strikes me as a "developers really don't want us to implement a client side review system, so our focus is going to be on Influencers and social media" type of rebuttal, rather than him actually making the comparison that one is better than the other for the purpose of persuading wider audiences to purchase games.

I just want to say as a general statement that they, just like any other company, need to learn what works for them and what doesn't considering what they are trying to do, and I think there's a better way of offering criticism than off handed remarks at everything they do.

I understand why some developers might not want mandatory user reviews posted all over their store page, and Epic wanting to please developers in that regard, however, a link to forums to discuss game issues should be on every store page. Users who are so inclined to research what they are buying will search out that information anyway.. so as long as it's not plastered right on the store page itself, and is simply a "Reviews/Forums" link which takes you away from the store page.. maybe that would appease developers, and allow Epic to have a functioning review/forum system for user support?
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
The effect of getting the Steam algos attention on launch day (which you do by feeding it external traffic in an attempt to drive wishlists):

gSyqzEK.png
 

Accoun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,905
I guess I was too late, but:
They don't allow anonymous payments anymore*

Wait, what? When did that happen? I stopped using it with start of last year, but it was nice to just put in the code and get the game.

But yeah, it's more of an universal equivalent of Steam gift cards, rather that credit card replacement.
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,378
I am guessing you didn't play very far in the game, the bunker section and the last level are some of the most intense metro gameplay ever.
Also 4k + Ray tracing w/ HDR looks unreal in the game.

But at the end of the day opinions are just that man.
I finished it.
Bunker was the closest the game got to be being good, ironically by ditching what it does 90% of the rest of the time which is being an open world game (I guess the valley isn't technically open world). But even then it was just a pretty standard shooter level. No quiet moments, no exploration, no soaking in the atmosphere. The best part about Metro was always when you were in a station, just walking around, hearing people tell stories, watching them living their live in this underground hell or moving slowly through an unexplored tunnel, not sure what you are about to find.
There were glimpses of that in Exodus (like in the tunnel with the light hating spiders) but those lasted a couple of minutes at best.
 

Teppic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
686
Is it no longer possible to view all games a developer has made on Steam? When I click on the developer it takes me to the publisher page.
 

Rosenkrantz

Member
Jan 17, 2018
4,920
Uh, do we have any decent Marvel themed games that aren't MvC and Wolverine? I thought about playing something in preparation to Endgame and I really can't think of anything else.
 

cyba89

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,628
Update from Supraland dev



Now as far as i know Valve expanded their dev store page to show traffic from and outside of the Steam so this should mean that people are finding about game by searching store.


I don't doubt that getting visibility directly through Steam and its algorythms worked really well for the Supraland dev but stuff like "influencers are overrated" (apparently based on anecdotal evidence in form of one japanese guy) and "screw marketing" are some super hot takes.

The road to sales success for a game is very variable based on genre, visuals, budget, release timing and dozens of other factors (including just luck) and there is not one know-it-all solution to make bank.

What is the dev suggesting one should do to gain visibility if not with marketing?
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,078
To me, from what you're saying, that strikes me as a "developers really don't want us to implement a client side review system, so our focus is going to be on Influencers and social media" type of rebuttal, rather than him actually making the comparison that one is better than the other for the purpose of persuading wider audiences to purchase games.?

You are combining two different statements by the Epic Store team:
  • They are going to focus on a store where the main method of discoverability will be curated lists (similar to AppStore) and Influencers. They stated that they believe most of the users would use external methods to discover games so there should be no need for more discoverability mechanics.
  • They do not believe that reviews are a positive thing and needs to be more controlled. They had spitballed several options (such as only being able to review when prompted randomly after closing the game) but it will always be an opt-in situation for the devs, who will not be forced to launch there.
I understand why some developers might not want mandatory user reviews posted all over their store page, and Epic wanting to please developers in that regard, however, a link to forums to discuss game issues should be on every store page. Users who are so inclined to research what they are buying will search out that information anyway.. so as long as it's not plastered right on the store page itself, and is simply a "Reviews/Forums" link which takes you away from the store page.. maybe that would appease developers, and allow Epic to have a functioning review/forum system for user support?

Their position on forums was that they create a negative community and that there are better methods to look up information avilable for the devs to set up, such as Reddit and Discord (both known for their great totally non toxic community and being easy to find information in compared to forums /s). The real reason is more likely because it is not a thing most devs care about and can be expensive to keep that information.

I just want to say as a general statement that they, just like any other company, need to learn what works for them and what doesn't, and I think there's a better way of offering criticism than off handed remarks at everything they do.

The main problem is that they have not learned anything from Steam or other competitors in the same field. They have provided a service that is worse than Origin at launch for a while and will end up in the same curation trap that Steam ended up.
There is also the point that in the PC world, where there is no hard reset of your "content" with a generation, you will always end up with a store that has too much content and will need some discoverability tools for older games: influencer push will only help during the launch window and afterwards they will be less likely to try the game again.

(sorry for disorganizing your text, I thought this way it joined better)
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,251
Uh, do we have any decent Marvel themed games that aren't MvC and Wolverine? I thought about playing something in preparation to Endgame and I really can't think of anything else.

Disney Infinity 2.0 is solid if you're okay with something aimed more at kids, although its campaigns are the weakest campaigns in the series.

And the Ultimate Alliance games, of course, but they've long since been delisted.
 

GrrImAFridge

ONE THOUSAND DOLLARYDOOS
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,665
Western Australia
To me, from what you're saying, that strikes me as a "developers really don't want us to implement a client side review system, so our focus is going to be on Influencers and social media" type of rebuttal, rather than him actually making the comparison that one is better than the other for the purpose of persuading wider audiences to purchase games.

That's a fair interpretation, especially considering how dev-leaning, well, everything was on day one.

I understand why some developers might not want mandatory user reviews posted all over their store page, and Epic wanting to please developers in that regard, however, a link to forums to discuss game issues should be on every store page. Users who are so inclined to research what they are buying will search out that information anyway.. so as long as it's not plastered right on the store page itself, and is simply a "Reviews/Forums" link which takes you away from the store page.. maybe that would appease developers, and allow Epic to have a functioning review/forum system for user support?

As inky noted above, Epic does intend to implement an opt-in review system. Assuming devs won't have control over which reviews are published publicly, that won't be a terrible compromise. If nothing else, I imagine the games that are on both Steam and EGS will have reviews enabled on both stores.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,817
Man, the trap zones in Catherine sure are bullshit. It feels like it's completely random how fast they react and how fast Vincent can move. I am using the Beta version that supposedly removes the 60 FPS lock, but it seems (without doing any measurements on this) that the game runs at a very variable FPS and this affects the game speed too. Makes it very much unplayable. Gonna look into locking it at 30 FPS if the dev doesn't address this soon.
 

Rosenkrantz

Member
Jan 17, 2018
4,920
Disney Infinity 2.0 is solid if you're okay with something aimed more at kids, although its campaigns are the weakest campaigns in the series.

And the Ultimate Alliance games, of course, but they've long since been delisted.
Thanks! I love LEGO games, so stuff aimed at kids is not a problem at all.

I think I have MUA and X-Men Legends on PS2, maybe it's a good time to unpack it.
 

Wok

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
3,258
France
assume that funny reviews get lower weight in the visibility of reviews, as most of the recommended ones are "serious".

Only because a review cannot be both flagged as "helpful" and "funny" by the same user. By design, "funny" reviews have less "helpful" votes with the current system than with a system without the "funny" tag.

getting the Steam algos attention on launch day (which you do by feeding it external traffic in an attempt to drive wishlists)

You feed it external traffic, but there is more to it than driving wishlists: if the game is "trending", it is featured on the store page and at the top of search results.

For instance, when Artifact was not yet dead, it was the first result if I typed "art":

rNVRkdi.png


My understanding is that wishlists make your game "popular", external traffic make your game "trending", and consequences are different.
 
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Vault

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,597
Shame we will never get Icewind Dale 2 EE

The original is a fucker to get mods set up, and I'm so used to just playing the EE versions of the other games
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,078
Only because a review cannot be both flagged as "helpful" and "funny" by the same user. By design, "funny" reviews have less "helpful" votes with the current system than with a system without the "funny" tag.
Well, that is still a way to give less weight to funny reviews in a smart way!
 

Talus

Banned
Dec 9, 2017
1,386
The main problem is that they have not learned anything from Steam or other competitors in the same field. They have provided a service that is worse than Origin at launch for a while and will end up in the same curation trap that Steam ended up.
There is also the point that in the PC world, where there is no hard reset of your "content" with a generation, you will always end up with a store that has too much content and will need some discoverability tools for older games: influencer push will only help during the launch window and afterwards they will be less likely to try the game again.

(sorry for disorganizing your text, I thought this way it joined better)

I read the entire post, and I understand what you mean, thanks.

Regarding the quoted though, I made a post a long while back about what I wished that Steam would do regarding store curation, and I know it's extremely complicated, but my basic idea was that I'd have essentially two stores, "My store" and the "Steam Store". I could add publishers/developers to my store, which would make all the games by them visible on my store, and would remove them from the Steam store query. So as I built up and curated my store, by adding devs/pubs of games I like, my store would instantly show me all the content from developers I'm interested in, giving more visibility (visual space and coverage) to those developers, and the Steam store side would, over time, feature less games from pubs/devs I liked.. but give more exposure to ones that I might not have heard of since there would naturally be less clutter on both sides.

Essentially it would be like 2 tabs, one side where I pretty much knew that everything is coming from developers I enjoy, while the other side are the ones that I don't care about, which still would make it easier to parse through and find new content that I could potentially add to "my store".

Anyway, my whole thing really does come from a place of wanting to see developers of games I like succeed and continue to announce great games for PC. It's kind of discouraging when I see games release on Steam that fail to reach an audience that I think should be there. I know the competition is hard, and there's lots of reasons why Steam releases don't always work well for some developers.. but I think there's room to try different things and see what helps, and what doesn't. That also includes Epic games and what they are attempting.
 

Dan L

Tried to PM someone for a tag
Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,177
Regina, Saskatchewan
I finished it.
Bunker was the closest the game got to be being good, ironically by ditching what it does 90% of the rest of the time which is being an open world game (I guess the valley isn't technically open world). But even then it was just a pretty standard shooter level. No quiet moments, no exploration, no soaking in the atmosphere. The best part about Metro was always when you were in a station, just walking around, hearing people tell stories, watching them living their live in this underground hell or moving slowly through an unexplored tunnel, not sure what you are about to find.
There were glimpses of that in Exodus (like in the tunnel with the light hating spiders) but those lasted a couple of minutes at best.
I love how hard you are working to prove me wrong. ITS MY OPINION. I really like it. I am sorry you don't but you are free to think whatever you want.
 

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
Regarding the quoted though, I made a post a long while back about what I wished that Steam would do regarding store curation, and I know it's extremely complicated, but my basic idea was that I'd have essentially two stores, "My store" and the "Steam Store". I could add publishers/developers to my store, which would make all the games by them visible on my store, and would remove them from the Steam store query.

Your personalized store page is supposed to be "my store". It already selects games based on your play history, curators you follow, what your friends play etc.

With the introduction of developer and publisher pages, you can also hit the "follow" button to make sure their games are being selected for you. There's an ignore button as well.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,078
Your personalized store page is supposed to be "my store". It already selects games based on your play history, curators you follow, what your friends play etc.

With the introduction of developer and publisher pages, you can also hit the "follow" button to make sure their games are being selected for you. There's a ignore button as well.
They really need to raise the limit for followed curators / publishers now that they created publisher pages.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,078
I mean, I have to do this:

Valve is a private company and, to the best that we can see, a huge amount of the value that Valve has generated has been used to enrich the handful of people who own and manage the company

https://techraptor.net/content/gear...embezzlement-gearbox-calls-accusations-absurd

The suit against Pitchford claims that Pitchford struck a deal with publisher Take-Two interactive to receive a "personal, secretive 'Executive Bonus' of $12,000,000 to be paid directly to Pitchford entity called 'Pitchford Entertainment Media Magic, LLC.'" According to Callender, the executive bonus was an advance upon the royalties towards the Borderlands series, that would normally go towards the Gearbox staff.

His point of view on private companies being used to enrich a handfull of people who own and manage the company might be skewed by his own personal experience as the CEO of a private company.
 

hamsterstyle

Member
Dec 13, 2017
25
Is it no longer possible to view all games a developer has made on Steam? When I click on the developer it takes me to the publisher page.
You can still search by developer with a bit of url manipulation - add the developer tag like this:
https://store.steampowered.com/search/?developer=Subset Games
It's case sensitive

I'm not much a fan of the publisher pages replacing the "click name to search" feature either. They're usually incomplete, a pain in the ass to browse, or both.
 

tuxfool

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,858
I mean, I have to do this:



https://techraptor.net/content/gear...embezzlement-gearbox-calls-accusations-absurd



His point of view on private companies being used to enrich a handfull of people who own and manage the company might be skewed by his own personal experience as the CEO of a private company.
If you were to look up "shady" in the dictionary, Pitchford's picture would come up. It is laughable that anybody would consider him the standard bearer for this message.
 

Gevin

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,823
kinda wish i had kept a save before the earlier big choice then -.-

That would work too but not if you are going for all achievements. The all bosses one requires them all in the same save.

I'm going through NG+ now to get to the bad ending, get that chievo and continue on to get the rest of them.
 

Mentalist

Member
Mar 14, 2019
17,975
I finished it.
Bunker was the closest the game got to be being good, ironically by ditching what it does 90% of the rest of the time which is being an open world game (I guess the valley isn't technically open world). But even then it was just a pretty standard shooter level. No quiet moments, no exploration, no soaking in the atmosphere. The best part about Metro was always when you were in a station, just walking around, hearing people tell stories, watching them living their live in this underground hell or moving slowly through an unexplored tunnel, not sure what you are about to find.
There were glimpses of that in Exodus (like in the tunnel with the light hating spiders) but those lasted a couple of minutes at best.


A whole bunch of ex-S.T.A.L.K.E.R. devs joined 4A after S.T.A.L.K.E.R.2 was cancelled. Their influence shows. I mostly liked Exodus because of that- playing the game on Ranger difficulty, the large open zones where everything was trying to kill you felt awesome.

Valley was my least favourite level because of this pseudo-openness (also because I spent forever trying to get the achievement for ghosting it before finally giving up). Caspian map was probably best-designed level. Volga was also nice, but having the fish stalk you constantly treaded the thin line between tension and annoyance.
 

zkylon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,636
That would work too but not if you are going for all achievements. The all bosses one requires them all in the same save.

I'm going through NG+ now to get to the bad ending, get that chievo and continue on to get the rest of them.
i don't care about the achievements, i just want to play through that side of the game u know
 
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