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Tombstone for Orange should say:

  • Windows ME is a good operating system

    Votes: 42 16.4%
  • UN Ambassador for PC Gaming

    Votes: 34 13.3%
  • Report this Orange man

    Votes: 10 3.9%
  • Still thinks PC Gaming is dead

    Votes: 22 8.6%
  • ༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ (I have no idea if this one is allowed)

    Votes: 57 22.3%
  • nice thread btw :)

    Votes: 91 35.5%

  • Total voters
    256
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
Nov 1, 2017
809
some people care a lot about the original creators vision and try to experience the work in a way they intended, i fall on this end of the spectrum. look lawrence of arabia needs to be on 70mm

others dont care, and thats fine. as soon as they release it into the world it has a life of it's own and people should be able to change it to achieve their ends

if that means editing out all the jar jar scenes from episode 1 go for it

or modding thomas the tank engine into anything

sure those arent what the creators wanted, but the works are objectively better because them

and of course it goes without saying that you shouldnt cheat on online servers, no duh, thats not the same as using cheat engine to give you unlimited money or something

if you have your own server and want to turn on lowgravity with friends however...

Right, i'm on board with all this. But I think the main argument is "Sekiro is hard, i'm bad at it, FROM should add an easy mode so I can beat it and because an easy mode has never ruined a game." The things you listed aren't the same.

In the earlier football/Real Madrid example its accepting that you just aren't as good as other people or don't have the desire. And that's okay, you can still derive your own form of enjoyment out of it without trying to force people into how you think the world should work.
 

SteveWinwood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,723
USA USA USA
Death of the author is harder to argue against with games since it's rarely one persons vision guiding things from beginning to end
i generally am not a fan of death of the author and find context and intent to be a really important part of criticism

but i guess thats just me personally and im not going to force that on anyone else who wants to
 

low-G

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,144
Thanks for reminding me Ragdoll Kung Fu exists, now that fucking theme song wont leave my head.

Here, because you should suffer with me


The PS3 version of Rag Doll Kung Fu is really different from the original. The original has unique, mouse-gesture driven controls. The PS3 one is more like Smash Bros. (I think both are good games)
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,414
Right, i'm on board with all this. But I think the main argument is "Sekiro is hard, i'm bad at it, FROM should add an easy mode so I can beat it and because an easy mode has never ruined a game." The things you listed aren't the same.

In the earlier football/Real Madrid example its accepting that you just aren't as good as other people or don't have the desire. And that's okay, you can still derive your own form of enjoyment out of it without trying to force people into how you think the world should work.

The soccer example is wrong. The medium is gaming (soccer) not the game (club)
If you are not skilled enough for Sekiro (Real Madrid), play a less demanding game (Fußballfreunde Eisenhüttenstadt)
 

SteveWinwood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,723
USA USA USA
Right, i'm on board with all this. But I think the main argument is "Sekiro is hard, i'm bad at it, FROM should add an easy mode so I can beat it and because an easy mode has never ruined a game." The things you listed aren't the same.

In the earlier football/Real Madrid example its accepting that you just aren't as good as other people or don't have the desire. And that's okay, you can still derive your own form of enjoyment out of it without trying to force people into how you think the world should work.
i wasnt even really responding to the overall arguement, just writing down sentences that popped into my head when i read the horror movie example

in the world of video games if someone wants to give themselves unlimited health to beat sekiro they can go for it i dont care

sure they probably wont find it as fun, and i also probably wont give their opinions on it as much merit but im not going to tell them how to experience anything

i dont think an easy mode has ever "ruined" a game but i havent looked in that thread at all because it just sounds terrible to participate in that discussion

im not quite sure about your soccer example, most people who want to make things more inclusive are not advocating taking anything away from others or changing how the current enjoyers appreicate it, its just options

at the end of the day i imagine its much more of a scope and budget consideration than an artisitic one but maybe not (and im sure thats also been discussed to death in those threads)
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,408
he can watch it *shrug*

I have dozens of genres I am not skilled enough to participate.
Should Brawl be easier? Should Fortnite? Should Dota? Should Forza?
The questions isn't "should x be easier" but rather "should x have the option of being easier"
You can play against Level 1 NPCs in Brawl (you actually have a ton of customization options in Brawl) or turn steering helps on in Forza.
Multiplayer games are a different breed but even then the good ones try to match you up with people roughly on your skill level. You think it would be fun for a team of Silvers to play Overwatch against a team of Grand-Masters? People complain all the time about bad match-making.

I don't think a game should be criticized for being hard (as long as it's not unfair) but I haven't really seen any outlet doing that with Sekiro.
 

Teggy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,892
Why were they so stingy with port stones in the original release of Dragons Dogma? I started out playing just using the ones I would find since that was the original design, but I finally got down to one left and I was like, this is dumb, I'm gong to start using the eternal one that came with Dark Arisen. The way that port crystals are really rare and can only be placed in the world map it's not like I even fast travel a ton anyway.
 

Aeferis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,626
Italy
The soccer example is wrong. The medium is gaming (soccer) not the game (club)
If you are not skilled enough for Sekiro (Real Madrid), play a less demanding game (Fußballfreunde Eisenhüttenstadt)

If you put it like that, Fußballfreunde Eisenhüttenstadt (which I suppose it's a team from a lower category?) is the easy mode of Real Madrid. Same game on a easier level, and the fact that the first exists doesn't make Real Madrid matches worse for those who watch (or play) them.

Many games, in the difficulty selection screen, have a disclaimer stating "that's the way the game was intended by its creators" next to one of the options, you pick that one if you want to experience the "original vision" or any other if you want a different experience more suited to your skills, but the "original vision" will still be playable as intended.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
12,238
If I didn't play God of War 2018 on the 'Give me God Of War' difficulty level, could I say that I played GoW? Since the name implies that that's the intended way the devs wanted players to go.
 

SteveWinwood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,723
USA USA USA
i think celeste was really smart about what they did

EQibvVM.jpg


nafLVtd.jpg


i never used it, but i can imagine most of the platforming sections get pretty broken depending on what youre selecting

also i just like the way they worded the assist mode paragraph, no judgement!
 

Teggy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,892
If I didn't play God of War 2018 on the 'Give me God Of War' difficulty level, could I say that I played GoW? Since the name implies that that's the intended way the devs wanted players to go.

I believe the EULA specified that you have to qualify any claim of beating the game with the difficulty you played on unless it was "God of War" difficulty.
 

Rhaknar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
42,903
one of you should gift me Outward because Im jonesing for it in the strangest way but I cant be spending no 40€ on a game I might not have the balls to play and end up hating. Go on then, chop chop.

But for realsies tho, wheres the cheapest place to grab it? GMG?
 

Dandy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,481
One of the best parts of PC gaming is that I can cheat to my heart's content if the developer doesn't include difficulty modes.
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,836
Well i did it, now i will go and make a dinner and hope that Era won't burn to the ground until i am back XD
 

Endruen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,107
Spain
The whole "every game should have an easy mode" really irks me. This seems like a very Western thing to think. I'm down with making input methods or how to play a game more accessible for people that might not be able to use the standard methods. But play the game or don't. Accept it as the product that the devs/director wanted to make instead of something that you should be able to play how you want.

There is plenty of media out there that you might not "get". Are you going to ask authors/directors/musicians to make an easy mode for you? Variety is the spice of life man.
The only argument I need is my girlfriend.
She wanted to play Nioh so bad because she loved the setting and how the game looked overall, but she has very little patience in general and she doesn't have that much skill with videogames because she didn't grow up with them, she only started really playing them when she started going out with me because, well, I had them so she got the oportunity.
She got wrecked on the, I guess second boss, the one with balls and chains, she spent all the afternoon trying to beat him to no avail and she finally quit.
An easy mode would be perfect for her, something a bit more relaxed, less health and less damage on the enemies, and she would love the game.
That really is my only argument, seeing my girlfriend's excitement for a game crushed by its sheer difficulty.
Thankfully, Hollow Knight has an easy mode, and I recommended her that once we get it for the Switch, that she plays on that difficulty.

So, btw, if anyone knows of a mod for Nioh that lowers the difficulty, let me know, please.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,126
The only argument I need is my girlfriend.
She wanted to play Nioh so bad because she loved the setting and how the game looked overall, but she has very little patience in general and she doesn't have that much skill with videogames because she didn't grow up with them, she only started really playing them when she started going out with me because, well, I had them so she got the oportunity.
She got wrecked on the, I guess second boss, the one with balls and chains, she spent all the afternoon trying to beat him to no avail and she finally quit.
An easy mode would be perfect for her, something a bit more relaxed, less health and less damage on the enemies, and she would love the game.
That really is my only argument, seeing my girlfriend's excitement for a game crushed by its sheer difficulty.
Thankfully, Hollow Knight has an easy mode, and I recommended her that once we get it for the Switch, that she plays on that difficulty.

So, btw, if anyone knows of a mod for Nioh that lowers the difficulty, let me know, please.

Cheat Engine is there to help you! (and other trainers)

Steam really needs native Cheat Engine support for Single Player games, DO IT STEAM.
 

sredgrin

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,276
If you want to make arguments against easy / accessible modes, you really have to stop bringing up movies and whatnot.

Interactive medium standards are not the same as non-interactive.
 

Delusibeta

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,648
one of you should gift me Outward because Im jonesing for it in the strangest way but I cant be spending no 40€ on a game I might not have the balls to play and end up hating. Go on then, chop chop.

But for realsies tho, wheres the cheapest place to grab it? GMG?
Is There Any Deal says Green Man Gaming and GamesPlanet both have it for 34€.
 

SteveWinwood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,723
USA USA USA
If you want to make arguments against easy / accessible modes, you really have to stop bringing up movies and whatnot.

Interactive medium standards are not the same as non-interactive.
i had just brought it up because i think customers have a right to remix and reedit movies in the same way that it should be a right for you to mod or cheat things in your video games
 

Uzzy

Gabe’s little helper
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,531
Hull, UK
If you want to make arguments against easy / accessible modes, you really have to stop bringing up movies and whatnot.

Interactive medium standards are not the same as non-interactive.

Yes but no. There are different standards, sure, but ultimately the creators should be allowed to create what they like. We accept difficult works in all other art forms, video games aren't that unique.

If the creators want to include easy modes or not, then that's their right. If people want to ask about it or mod it afterwards, then that's their right too.
 

Endruen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,107
Spain
Cheat Engine is there to help you! (and other trainers)

Steam really needs native Cheat Engine support for Single Player games, DO IT STEAM.
Thank you, I didn't think about using a Cheat Engine because I've never used one before (I barely even use mods in the first place), we will give it a try and maybe she will even play Dark Souls.

Also, I saw your post in the Furaffinity thread, and Kingdom Hearts is great, ok? T.T
 
Nov 1, 2017
809
If you want to make arguments against easy / accessible modes, you really have to stop bringing up movies and whatnot.

Interactive medium standards are not the same as non-interactive.

Not being a smart ass but name more interactive mediums we can compare them to? Not many mediums combine dexterity/art like games do. Board games are very low on dexterity. Football is low on art/creators.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,341
Not being a smart ass but name more interactive mediums we can compare them to? Not many mediums combine dexterity/art like games do. Board games are very low on dexterity. Football is low on art/creators.

Interpretive dance.

(I have no horse in this race. Don't think I'll be playing Sekiro anyway based on what I read.)
 
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Stoze

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,605
Do you guys think I'm disrespecting Miyazaki's intent because I'm playing with +30% FOV and an unlocked framerate? Technically that makes the game easier; I can see more of my surroundings and have less input latency.
 

Akronis

Prophet of Regret - Lizard Daddy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,464
How the fuck does Dark Souls Remaster support 21:9 natively and Sekiro doesn't?
 

Uzzy

Gabe’s little helper
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,531
Hull, UK
Do you guys think I'm disrespecting Miyazaki's intent because I'm playing with +30% FOV and an unlocked framerate? Technically that makes the game easier; I can see more of my surroundings and have less input latency.

I think talking about 'disrespect' is meaningless tbh. Once you own it it's yours to do with as you wish. Go nuts.

Doesn't mean that Miyazaki needs to provide those options to you.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,966
i think celeste was really smart about what they did

EQibvVM.jpg


nafLVtd.jpg


i never used it, but i can imagine most of the platforming sections get pretty broken depending on what youre selecting

also i just like the way they worded the assist mode paragraph, no judgement!


That's pretty cool. The thing i hate is when I fail a spot over and over and a game politely reminds me that the difficulty can be changed at any time. I don't want to change the difficulty, I want to slam my face into the wall until I miraculously survive.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,341
i compared video games to dancing once and my gf, who has taught modern dance, almost broke up with me

Hah. I mean, it's kind of like learning a skill or instrument -- especially mechanically complicated stuff like fighting games, StarCraft, etc. But I definitely wouldn't bat for it in the company of professional artists 👀
 

SteveWinwood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,723
USA USA USA
Hah. I mean, it's kind of like learning a skill or instrument -- especially mechanically complicated stuff like fighting games, StarCraft, etc. But I definitely wouldn't bat for it in the company of professional artists 👀
by breaking up with me i mean she rolled her eyes really hard

i dont think there is a good comparison to video games at the end of the day

but i think comparing them to books and movies can still be valuable in some instances

theyre still media
 

Stoze

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,605
I think talking about 'disrespect' is meaningless tbh. Once you own it it's yours to do with as you wish. Go nuts.

Doesn't mean that Miyazaki needs to provide those options to you.
I was being facetious, but I agree. In general I think if developers have the time and resources to implement difficulty modes, they should. Not to going to hold it against them or think less of the game if they don't though.

At the end of the day like anything it's all about implementation. I think having multiple difficulties that you can't change partway through the game can potentially hurt or even ruin the experience.
 
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Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
Celeste on Switch is hella iconic and I bet the PC version is just as swole

Those accessibility options really do make a world of difference in terms of who could play that game
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,408


LOL apparently Fallout Subreddit is pissed XD

Greg AND Howard both?

There are probably like 50 million people in that subreddit but whatever

by breaking up with me i mean she rolled her eyes really hard

i dont think there is a good comparison to video games at the end of the day

but i think comparing them to books and movies can still be valuable in some instances

theyre still media
Totally, but not when it comes to difficulty.
If we talk about story, writing, world building, character arcs, cinematography, shot composition, use of colors, music etc, absolutely.
 

PepsimanVsJoe

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,185
Honestly I don't have a side in the "Easy mode" issue. Given the opportunity, I'd prefer to highlight games that handle difficulty options well.

It's a complex situation, and there aren't any... easy answers for it.
 
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