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Tombstone for Orange should say:

  • Windows ME is a good operating system

    Votes: 42 16.4%
  • UN Ambassador for PC Gaming

    Votes: 34 13.3%
  • Report this Orange man

    Votes: 10 3.9%
  • Still thinks PC Gaming is dead

    Votes: 22 8.6%
  • ༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ (I have no idea if this one is allowed)

    Votes: 57 22.3%
  • nice thread btw :)

    Votes: 91 35.5%

  • Total voters
    256
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.

Stone Ocean

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,568
I find point 4 and 5 from Dusk Golem especially pertinent. Epic have a huge platform to showcase works and for the most part they're showing off games that would have no problems with getting infront of people. Put the next game from Pillow Fight Games front and centre and then I'll be impressed (for example)

Further, if you argued that we need to artificially limit the supply of literature because people can't compete in a market that includes everything from The Epic of Gilgamesh, you'd be laughed out of polite society. It's such an absurd idea.
Yep. People seem to forget PC doesn't do generations. People have over a decade of games to choose from, not neatly separated libraries within a span of 4~5 years.
 
Nov 1, 2017
809
I thought I kind of remembered that Geldreich guy. He's the one who equated open office spaces to a North Korea censorship and was vouching for people placing mirrors on their tables to keep track of everyone and make sure no one is watching them from behind. There's already been a few articles based on his comments and tweets, he usually starts making wild claims every time there's any topic of discussion hoping to get attention.

He also has a massive chip on his shoulder against Valve, he's been talking shit about the company and their staff ever since he left/was laid off, so not exactly the most unbiased of people around.

Richard is an ass, and we won't be working with him again. -Gabe

For reference: https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/47sc46/update_from_the_shanghai_major/
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,570
I mean is this enough for that thread?

psqiZby.png


naEqOT2.png








 

AHA-Lambda

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,792
Sure, I want to archive it since the topic did make me finally think to write up some points I've been meaning to for a while on this topic (this was a post I wrote up for the now closed thread and not responding to anyone here to clarify):

Okay, so a few reactionary thoughts I have reading this:

01. PC Gaming was fucking saved by Valve, like the funny thing here is that Epic left PC Gaming in the early 2000s, calling all PC Gamers "a bunch of pirates", more than once even over the years. Valve talked about PC Gaming dying due to a lack of convenience for the end user, and made Steam as a storefront for ease of use and a collective place for gaming as they also had a position making games within the industry. Literally Valve single-handily changed and saved the PC Gaming space, this isn't anything anyone can deny, it's historically what happened.

02. 30% rev cut I know is debatable, but on two fronts Valve has changed it at least for bigger selling developers already (which a lot of people seem to forget, though I do have a few mixed thoughts on it), but moreso literally Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Origin, Games for Windows Live, UPlay, etc., all take a 30% cut as well, so I've never understood what the fuck Valve has done to get so much slack for this particular decision when it's literally a mostly industry-wide standard. That doesn't mean Valve can't do better, and I can agree there, but I also don't understand why this is SUCH a big point in this argument, especially when frankly against other PC storefronts Valve does actually offer by far the most for their cut.

03. PC Gaming hasn't been dying on Steam at all, it's been growing more and more each year. So that's a factually incorrect statement even just going by numbers.

04. The argument for the "little guy" comes up a lot, and as a little indie developer who's made several well received but mostly unnoticed games and loves the underground indie scene, this argument is fucking bollocks. Epic's method only attributes to "proven" devs who've already had success stories, they haven't presented supporting any new developers or people who are struggling, their system literally only works by developers that find success on other platforms so they can offer more money to those people who've already found success to get more money for their next title. There is nothing about the Epic Store thinking of the "little guy", not really. It's great for some independent devs I'm sure, but only those who've already had some success.

05. Steam's "problem" that everyone talks about is just what's going to fucking happen in the future, and everyone likes to shove the blame on Valve, but show ignorance to what the actual "problem" is. There's just too many games, and this is a natural outcome. For PC Gaming one of it's greatest strengths is that is has a library that grows and grows over time, it amasses a library of games both currently coming out and that have come out in the past, it's a collective. Because it's a collective, the number of games will steadily increase. Valve opening the floodgates, "destroying visibility", is not a problem, it's an eventuality. The problem isn't even fucking "this trash game gets onto a gaming market", the actual problem is there's too many good games for a broad range of taste. The same thing will happen eventually to any store front that amasses games over time, eventually there will be just too many to pick from. The same thing has happened with films, with novels, with art, any fucking form of media, video games aren't special here. This isn't a problem so much about more games getting onto Steam and devs getting less visibility has a lot more to do with the fucking fact they don't know how to advertise and get their own visibility, and haven't adapted with the changing market, because while Valve opened the floodgates, that's honestly fine. It maybe sped up some things, but it was already happening and we were always going to end up in this position. And it's going to eventually happen to any storefront that tries to compete here including Epic, because it's not actually a problem, it's an eventuality due to the market as a whole growing and PC Gaming amassing it's game's library over time.

I won't even touch into what I think of Epic's strategies right now, but I wanted to talk these points since I think honestly a lot of people are being willfully ignorant on so many factors here.

I'm going to be keeping this post on hand.
 

Rosenkrantz

Member
Jan 17, 2018
4,917
uPlay is fine. I think Origins was the last Ubi game I bought on Steam and that's only because it had better price at the moment. That being said, I have a feeling Ubi might regret their decision in a long run, the gamble might not pay off.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,212
Dusk Golem, that's a really well-written post that contextualizes a lot of important points. I don't know where you get the energy from after so many of these threads go the way they do.

It supports but you need to have linked funding method.


NPfmHM7.png

Pardon my ignorance, but how would you get money on your wallet without a debit/credit card linked?
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,076
I find point 4 and 5 from Dusk Golem especially pertinent. Epic have a huge platform to showcase works and for the most part they're showing off games that would have no problems with getting infront of people. Put the next game from Pillow Fight Games front and centre and then I'll be impressed (for example)

Further, if you argued that we need to artificially limit the supply of literature because people can't compete in a market that includes everything since The Epic of Gilgamesh, you'd be laughed out of polite society. It's such an absurd idea.
I think the problem indies are now finding is similar to the situation that digital publishing created in the literature field with Amazon (and Kindle):

Once it is so easy to enter the field, it gets overbooked and you need to learn how to market (for your target audience or for the general audience much more than before. Quality is still important, but unless you are an amazing masterpiece (which in most cases you wont be), marketing and getting your name around is the most important point.

And all of this is due to the democratization of engines (much cheaper and easier to use) and "publishing platforms" (both consoles and PC) being more open to games, to a degree than in Steam it is basically the Amazon policy of open doors.
 

Rosenkrantz

Member
Jan 17, 2018
4,917
Any thoughts on Anima: Gate of Memories? It looks like Nanobreaker or some other generic slasher from PS2 but reviews are relatively good.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,238
Dusk Golem, that's a really well-written post that contextualizes a lot of important points. I don't know where you get the energy from after so many of these threads go the way they do.



Pardon my ignorance, but how would you get money on your wallet without a debit/credit card linked?
You can get money transferred to your Paypal account, without having a card attached to it (I think)
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,251
The notion of Valve killing PC gaming is patently absurd.

It's comparable (albeit less extreme) to saying the NES killed console gaming.
 

SteveWinwood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,673
USA USA USA
I've long been using ebooks as an example in those threads because its been having same issues for years now. Store visibility, newcomers entering at a record rate due to ease of tools, and competing against years of old always available classics.

And lemme tell you if you think visibility and discoverability is bad on steam, hoo boy never look at the Amazon Kindle store.
 

Nabs

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,692
Damnit. Rip Stringify. It was an app that got bought by Comcast, and now it's shutting down. It let you manage your smart home devices and setup reactions to different things (imagine a complex IFTTT). It had access to the SteamAPI, so I could have my lights turn off or do whatever I wanted them to do based on what was happening on Steam (Game launch/shut down/friends come online). All good things have to come to an end. Damn you Comcast.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,799
Sure, I want to archive it since the topic did make me finally think to write up some points I've been meaning to for a while on this topic (this was a post I wrote up for the now closed thread and not responding to anyone here to clarify):

Okay, so a few reactionary thoughts I have reading this:

01. PC Gaming was fucking saved by Valve, like the funny thing here is that Epic left PC Gaming in the early 2000s, calling all PC Gamers "a bunch of pirates", more than once even over the years. Valve talked about PC Gaming dying due to a lack of convenience for the end user, and made Steam as a storefront for ease of use and a collective place for gaming as they also had a position making games within the industry. Literally Valve single-handily changed and saved the PC Gaming space, this isn't anything anyone can deny, it's historically what happened.

02. 30% rev cut I know is debatable, but on two fronts Valve has changed it at least for bigger selling developers already (which a lot of people seem to forget, though I do have a few mixed thoughts on it), but moreso literally Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Origin, Games for Windows Live, UPlay, etc., all take a 30% cut as well, so I've never understood what the fuck Valve has done to get so much slack for this particular decision when it's literally a mostly industry-wide standard. That doesn't mean Valve can't do better, and I can agree there, but I also don't understand why this is SUCH a big point in this argument, especially when frankly against other PC storefronts Valve does actually offer by far the most for their cut.

03. PC Gaming hasn't been dying on Steam at all, it's been growing more and more each year. So that's a factually incorrect statement even just going by numbers.

04. The argument for the "little guy" comes up a lot, and as a little indie developer who's made several well received but mostly unnoticed games and loves the underground indie scene, this argument is fucking bollocks. Epic's method only attributes to "proven" devs who've already had success stories, they haven't presented supporting any new developers or people who are struggling, their system literally only works by developers that find success on other platforms so they can offer more money to those people who've already found success to get more money for their next title. There is nothing about the Epic Store thinking of the "little guy", not really. It's great for some independent devs I'm sure, but only those who've already had some success.

05. Steam's "problem" that everyone talks about is just what's going to fucking happen in the future, and everyone likes to shove the blame on Valve, but show ignorance to what the actual "problem" is. There's just too many games, and this is a natural outcome. For PC Gaming one of it's greatest strengths is that is has a library that grows and grows over time, it amasses a library of games both currently coming out and that have come out in the past, it's a collective. Because it's a collective, the number of games will steadily increase. Valve opening the floodgates, "destroying visibility", is not a problem, it's an eventuality. The problem isn't even fucking "this trash game gets onto a gaming market", the actual problem is there's too many good games for a broad range of taste. The same thing will happen eventually to any store front that amasses games over time, eventually there will be just too many to pick from. The same thing has happened with films, with novels, with art, any fucking form of media, video games aren't special here. This isn't a problem so much about more games getting onto Steam and devs getting less visibility has a lot more to do with the fucking fact they don't know how to advertise and get their own visibility, and haven't adapted with the changing market, because while Valve opened the floodgates, that's honestly fine. It maybe sped up some things, but it was already happening and we were always going to end up in this position. And it's going to eventually happen to any storefront that tries to compete here including Epic, because it's not actually a problem, it's an eventuality due to the market as a whole growing and PC Gaming amassing it's game's library over time.

I won't even touch into what I think of Epic's strategies right now, but I wanted to talk these points since I think honestly a lot of people are being willfully ignorant on so many factors here.


Fantastic post, it will be quoted a lot in the future.
 

Jawmuncher

Crisis Dino
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
38,386
Ibis Island
D3pOuQ7WAAEL_i5.jpg


Made a fake EGS page. The design work is so simple that I sort of want to make a thread with fake ones like we did with Steam back in the day.
 

Madjoki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,230
It supports but you need to have linked funding method.


NPfmHM7.png


So I guess that's still a no then for me.

Linking is here is just text field you enter bank account no., no any kind of checks. (And then you can transfer to paypal manually from that account).

Are you sure you can still do it on Steam? Currently I wasn't able to use Paypal balance if I'm just adding to Steam wallet.

Honestly, I don't know. I have paid everything with steam cards.
But I have certainly done so in past. (Not adding to wallet, but direct pay for games).

D3pOuQ7WAAEL_i5.jpg


Made a fake EGS page. The design work is so simple that I sort of want to make a thread with fake ones like we did with Steam back in the day.

Should've posted to 4chan with name Leaker. :P
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,570
You're allowed to make a thread about such things. There's only an issue if you're trying to start something from the get go "Epic's Cut is RUINING GAMING" for example.

I meant something like "Reality of Epic Store 12% cut"

What would be the point of that thread? You know exactly after 5 posts its the same thread like all other Epic threads.

That is how it probably go that is why I am asking should I do it. I mean I would do it in a heartbeat but I think that mods deserve some break too :D
 

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
Sure, I want to archive it since the topic did make me finally think to write up some points I've been meaning to for a while on this topic (this was a post I wrote up for the now closed thread and not responding to anyone here to clarify):

Okay, so a few reactionary thoughts I have reading this:

01. PC Gaming was fucking saved by Valve, like the funny thing here is that Epic left PC Gaming in the early 2000s, calling all PC Gamers "a bunch of pirates", more than once even over the years. Valve talked about PC Gaming dying due to a lack of convenience for the end user, and made Steam as a storefront for ease of use and a collective place for gaming as they also had a position making games within the industry. Literally Valve single-handily changed and saved the PC Gaming space, this isn't anything anyone can deny, it's historically what happened.

02. 30% rev cut I know is debatable, but on two fronts Valve has changed it at least for bigger selling developers already (which a lot of people seem to forget, though I do have a few mixed thoughts on it), but moreso literally Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Origin, Games for Windows Live, UPlay, etc., all take a 30% cut as well, so I've never understood what the fuck Valve has done to get so much slack for this particular decision when it's literally a mostly industry-wide standard. That doesn't mean Valve can't do better, and I can agree there, but I also don't understand why this is SUCH a big point in this argument, especially when frankly against other PC storefronts Valve does actually offer by far the most for their cut.

03. PC Gaming hasn't been dying on Steam at all, it's been growing more and more each year. So that's a factually incorrect statement even just going by numbers.

04. The argument for the "little guy" comes up a lot, and as a little indie developer who's made several well received but mostly unnoticed games and loves the underground indie scene, this argument is fucking bollocks. Epic's method only attributes to "proven" devs who've already had success stories, they haven't presented supporting any new developers or people who are struggling, their system literally only works by developers that find success on other platforms so they can offer more money to those people who've already found success to get more money for their next title. There is nothing about the Epic Store thinking of the "little guy", not really. It's great for some independent devs I'm sure, but only those who've already had some success.

05. Steam's "problem" that everyone talks about is just what's going to fucking happen in the future, and everyone likes to shove the blame on Valve, but show ignorance to what the actual "problem" is. There's just too many games, and this is a natural outcome. For PC Gaming one of it's greatest strengths is that is has a library that grows and grows over time, it amasses a library of games both currently coming out and that have come out in the past, it's a collective. Because it's a collective, the number of games will steadily increase. Valve opening the floodgates, "destroying visibility", is not a problem, it's an eventuality. The problem isn't even fucking "this trash game gets onto a gaming market", the actual problem is there's too many good games for a broad range of taste. The same thing will happen eventually to any store front that amasses games over time, eventually there will be just too many to pick from. The same thing has happened with films, with novels, with art, any fucking form of media, video games aren't special here. This isn't a problem so much about more games getting onto Steam and devs getting less visibility has a lot more to do with the fucking fact they don't know how to advertise and get their own visibility, and haven't adapted with the changing market, because while Valve opened the floodgates, that's honestly fine. It maybe sped up some things, but it was already happening and we were always going to end up in this position. And it's going to eventually happen to any storefront that tries to compete here including Epic, because it's not actually a problem, it's an eventuality due to the market as a whole growing and PC Gaming amassing it's game's library over time.

I won't even touch into what I think of Epic's strategies right now, but I wanted to talk these points since I think honestly a lot of people are being willfully ignorant on so many factors here.

This is a fantastic post, my respect for taking the time to write this m8!
 

Jawmuncher

Crisis Dino
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
38,386
Ibis Island
I meant something like "Reality of Epic Store 12% cut"



That is how it probably go that is why I am asking should I do it. I mean I would do it in a heartbeat but I think that mods deserve some break too :D

Would probably be best not to imply in your title full-on being right. "The potential reality" would be more neutral and better for discussion on the topic than just hot take city.
 

sirap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,209
South East Asia
I've long been using ebooks as an example in those threads because its been having same issues for years now. Store visibility, newcomers entering at a record rate due to ease of tools, and competing against years of old always available classics.

And lemme tell you if you think visibility and discoverability is bad on steam, hoo boy never look at the Amazon Kindle store.

I've been publishing on Amazon for almost a decade now (long before the KU floodgates opened) and the visibility problem games have on Steam and every other storefront doesn't hold a candle to what's going on with Kindle right now.

It doesn't matter if you're writing the next Harry Potter or GoT. There are a hundred other authors publishing books just as good as yours, on the same day and in the same genre, and no one will ever know they exist. Want to be seen? You better have a big warchest or some god-tier connections.
 
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