[PBS] In honor of his passing, American Experience re-presents 'The Presidents: George H.W. Bush'.

[Old Man Spike]

American Experience: 'The Presidents: George H.W. Bush'

Watch @ PBS.org

When George. H.W. Bush left the Oval Office in 1992, rejected after one tumultuous presidential term, his 30-year career in public service came to an abrupt and unexpected end. Despite soaring approval ratings following military victory in the Persian Gulf, his years as president after the war were marked by almost unrelieved decline. A sluggish economy and an earlier decision to raise taxes, despite an explicit campaign oath, led to his defeat. By the end of his term many observers dismissed him as an artifact of an irrelevant Cold War past.

George H.W. Bush presents the first in-depth assessment of the 41st president of the United States, drawing upon unparalleled access to figures in Bush's private and public life, to reveal Bush as a pivotal player during a critical moment in American and world history and in a powerful political dynasty. Bush's personal letters, and interviews with his closest advisors and prominent critics inform the film, including First Lady Barbara Bush, Condoleezza Rice, Colin Powell, Mikhail Gorbachev, and more.

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PBS re-aired the documentary on December 4th this week and again tonight, and I had the opportunity to catch tonight's rebroadcast in its entirety. At almost three hours it can be an exhaustive journey, but an enlightening one given current events. In light of his recent passing I encourage anyone interested in seeking an in-depth, even-handed examination of the life, political career, and governance of the 41st President, one not softened by mournful remembrances, to give this a watch when time permits.

 

[TheFireman]

no thanks would rather just watch the dancing crabs gif

 

[Deleted member 19533]

no thanks would rather just watch the dancing crabs gif

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What do you mean? Like a celebratory gif?

 

[phazedplasma]

Yeah I'm good. Great British Baking Show is way better than this war criminal with a criminal amount of AIDs deaths under his belt.

 

[Masterz1337]

Thanks for posting, will definitively be giving this a watch.

 

[Ryuelli]

Neat, I'll have to check this out.

 

[Ushiromiya]

nevermind

 

[TaterTots]

Thanks for sharing. I'll give it a watch.

 

[Halbrand]

Thanks for this OP

 

[Deleted member 42055]

Lol the difference in the responses , you can pretty much completely gauge how each person reacted to the news of his passing

 

[Masterz1337]

Lol the difference in the responses , you can pretty much completely gauge how each person reacted to the news of his passing

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It's almost like some people like to learn more about a subject, and understand the complexities and consequences of what happens when you lead a country, and other people just want to complain and stand by their initial biases.

 

[Titik]

American Experience is pretty awesome. I'm sure they will mention all the bad thing he did as well.

 

[phazedplasma]

It's almost like some people like to learn more about a subject, and understand the complexities and consequences of what happens when you lead a country, and other people just want to complain and stand by their initial biases.

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Tell me more about the complexities and consequences of acknowledging that gays are people too.

 

[Deranged Hermit]

Tell me more about the complexities and consequences of acknowledging that gays are people too.

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American Experience is usually very even-handed, this isn't a fluff piece or a hagiography.

 

[OrdinaryPrime]

It's almost like some people like to learn more about a subject, and understand the complexities and consequences of what happens when you lead a country, and other people just want to complain and stand by their initial biases.

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Initial biases, Reagan and him ignored the AIDS epidemic and he started the first of two pointless wars in Iraq. Where are the complexities I'm missing?

American Experience is usually very even-handed, this isn't a fluff piece or a hagiography.

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I personally don't mind learning more about a subject that I don't like, for me Masterz1337's response was incredibly condescending.

 

[Masterz1337]

Tell me more about the complexities and consequences of acknowledging that gays are people too.

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You mean the part where HW signed the first legislation that recognized LGB people? Which also is the basis for all data collection in them for hate crimes? Nearly 30 years ago?

Tell me how and why both Hillary and Obama were totally for gay rights and marriage back then, everyone from back then has a pretty poor track record.

I mean, maybe this isn't what you meant in your post, and it was more trying to frame me as someone who believed that gay people's basic human rights need debate too? I don't know. You tell me.

Initial biases, Reagan and him ignored the AIDS epidemic and he started the first of two pointless wars in Iraq. Where are the complexities I'm missing?

I personally don't mind learning more about a subject that I don't like, for me Masterz1337's response was incredibly condescending.

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The AIDS epidemic I am not overly familiar with, but its not like people had as a comprehensive view of it back then. In fact, magic johnson didn't change public discourse on the subject until 91, and even then he was part of HWs national commission on aids. While HW is often accused of not doing enough, making a mistake is not the same as malice. I don't know if you can name a single president who didn't take an issue as seriously as they could to prevent human loss of life.

As far as the gulf war, it was a totally necessary war and not initiated by us. Sadam invited Kuwait. Was making moves towards the saudis, and fired missiles at Israel hoping retaliation would spark an international war in the Middle East. Never mind the use of chemical weapons on his own people. The gulf war is about as flawless a case of American intervention as you can dig up. It's worth noting that HWs decision to not march into Baghdad and remove Sadam was viewed by many as a sign of weakness, not strength and is credited for losing him re election, along with him raising taxes. Those are all complexities, that warrant review by his naysayers I'd say.

My remark is condescending, to those who want to comment on a discussion regarding HWs legacy with "nah no matter what I'm not changing my mind". Clearly, that's not you. But it's incredibly juvenile for some people to post in the thread saying they don't care what is posted, their mind is made up.

 

[Old Man Spike]

After posting this thread last night I went to bed, and upon reading the wildly divergent comments it got this morning I wrote and then rewrote and rewrote again a response attempting to articulate why I made this thread, only to then delete the whole thing.

I"ll just say this.

I was in middle school when Bush Sr. was president, and to me he was little more than the Dana Carvey SNL caricature, sending troops to war and lying about taxes and getting sick on foreign dignitaries. People joked about Reagan then too, to be sure, but I also remember Reagan being respected by my parents, their family, their friends. They didn't talk about Bush Sr. the way they talked about Reagan, if they talked about him at all, and that was usually to make a negative comparison to Reagan. Bush Sr. was just... a joke. So my perception of Bush Sr. as a president was informed largely by cartoonish mockery, and that pereception didn't change for years -- until I watched this documentary when it originally aired in 2008. It then became apparent that he was more than the presidential footnote and butt of jokes my memories of ignorant youth portrayed him to be.

So, I made this thread because young me was an idiot.

 

[TaleSpun]

even-handed examination of the life,

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No thanks. War criminal apologia gives me gas.

 

[Kirblar]

Initial biases, Reagan and him ignored the AIDS epidemic and he started the first of two pointless wars in Iraq. Where are the complexities I'm missing?

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That Bush did not start Desert Storm, it was a response to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. Bush was also marginally better than Reagan on the AIDS crisis.

 

[OrdinaryPrime]

That Bush did not start Desert Storm, it was a response to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. Bush was also marginally better than Reagan on the AIDS crisis.

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You know there isn't a strong argument when you have to use words such as 'marginally'. And of course Kuwait and Iraq and the US involvement had nothing to do with selfish reasons like oil and everything to do with Saddam Hussein. You'll notice that there are many examples of countries invading other countries where the United States did not invade. Hell the Ukraine - Russia conflict right now is one such example.

 

[Kirblar]

You know there isn't a strong argument when you have to use words such as 'marginally'. And of course Kuwait and Iraq and the US involvement had nothing to do with selfish reasons like oil and everything to do with Saddam Hussein. You'll notice that there are many examples of countries invading other countries where the United States did not invade. Hell the Ukraine - Russia conflict right now is one such example.

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I use the word marginally because it's appropriate. (Also, I have a background in econ, and that's literally the word the entire discipline is built on.) It was better than Reagan (who I think was a generally a flaming dumpster fire of a human being on the whole) but it still wasn't good. It's credit for going from an F to a D-.

Yes, geopolitics are geopolitics and constrain actions when someone has nukes. That doens't mean that booting Iraq out of Kuwait wasn't the right thing to do here. Going in, pushing Iraq out, and not listening to the dumbasses like Rumsfeld/Cheney who wanted to invade at the time is something I find commendable. Other aspects I don't. I think HW Bush is a very complicated figure with genuinely good aspects alongside the bad ones and that's not something I think I'll be able to say about many Republicans going forward.

 

[bricewgilbert]

That Bush did not start Desert Storm, it was a response to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. Bush was also marginally better than Reagan on the AIDS crisis.

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Your bootlicking is fucking shameless. Probably the worst poster on Era.

 

[Cels]

how does this documentary cover his role in iran-contra (plus his pardonings) as well as the effects of his escalation of the war on drugs?

 

[Old Man Spike]

how does this documentary cover his role in iran-contra (plus his pardonings) as well as the effects of his escalation of the war on drugs?

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I'd have to dig through it again to be sure, but I don't recall the War on Drugs coming up in any meaningful way. Iran-Contra is covered and Bush comes across as a loyal man who stood by the President while lying about his own involvement out of political necessity, until the reports detailing his involvement were the final nail in the coffin of his disastrous re-election campaign.

 

[Titik]

Your bootlicking is fucking shameless. Probably the worst poster on Era.

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Nah Kirblar just did thier homework.

 

[TaleSpun]

I'd have to dig through it again to be sure, but I don't recall the War on Drugs coming up in any meaningful way. Iran-Contra is covered and Bush comes across as a loyal man who stood by the President while lying about his own involvement out of political necessity, until the reports detailing his involvement were the final nail in the coffin of his disastrous re-election campaign.

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This sounds disgusting lol

 

[Tracygill]

Is this mentioned in the video?

8 women say George H.W. Bush groped them. Their claims deserve to be remembered as we assess his legacy.

Relatively little has been made of the accusations against Bush since they emerged last year. A woman initially accused Bush of groping her and telling her a dirty joke as she stood beside him, seated in a wheelchair, for a photo op. The family responded, suggesting the aging former president might be slipping a bit. "President Bush has been confined to a wheelchair for roughly five years, so his arm falls on the lower waist of people with whom he takes pictures," a spokesperson, Jim McGrath, said on Bush's behalf.

But then the story changed. More women came forward describing incidents that took place before Bush was in a wheelchair and even while he was in office. One woman described a credible story dating back to 1992, when she says that Bush, then the president, put his hand on her rear end while taking a photograph at a reelection fundraiser. Another woman described an incident from 2003, when she was 16 years old — and Bush was still spry, zipping around Kennebunkport, Maine, on a Segway.

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[manchego obfuscator]

read this instead

https://www.google.com/amp/s/static...crimes-racism-and-obstruction-of-justice.html

 

[Brandson]

I would watch an American Experience about pretty much anything.

 

[Old Man Spike]

This sounds disgusting lol

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*shrugs* Watch the documentary. Bush Sr. hated Reagan, they disagreed on a great many things, but the moment he became Vice President he resolved to be completely loyal to Reagan because that was who he was as a person, that's what his history of service reflects.

Is this mentioned in the video?

8 women say George H.W. Bush groped them. Their claims deserve to be remembered as we assess his legacy.

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I could suggest you watch for an answer to your query, but I'll save you the effort: no, this 2008 documentary doesn't address recent claims that George H.W. Bush groped women inappropriately.

read this instead

https://www.google.com/amp/s/static...crimes-racism-and-obstruction-of-justice.html

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Could do both, reading that article and watching this documentary. No harm in that.

 

[Benita]

So people in here refusing to watch a piece about one of the most important figures in American political history unless it's a pure distillation of their own condemnation? That's pretty narrow-minded.

It's like some of you think that acknowledging a person as a rounded individual with qualities both good and bad is a tacit endorsement of absolutely everything they did.

 

[manchego obfuscator]

So people in here refusing to watch a piece about one of the most important figures in American political history unless it's a pure distillation of their own condemnation? That's pretty narrow-minded.

It's like some of you think that acknowledging a person as a rounded individual with qualities both good and bad is a tacit endorsement of absolutely everything they did.

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some of us also have long enough memories to remember the OP supporting Dubya and attacking John Kerry way back in 2004, so I fully admit that that may be coloring things

 

[fick]

TIL Bush caused Iraq to invade Kuwait

 

[Biske]

Was really fascinating to watch. There is obviously a lot to get into and you can debate a whole lot of things, but the comparison to our current president is just jaw dropping.

Would highly recommend watching it.

 

[Braaier]

This is an interesting thread. I may check this out. Thx op

 

[Old Man Spike]

some of us also have long enough memories to remember the OP supporting Dubya and attacking John Kerry way back in 2004, so I fully admit that that may be coloring things

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Your memory is certainly better than mine, especially on the John Kerry thing, but you're probably right. I did vote for George W. twice.

 

[Greyham]

After posting this thread last night I went to bed, and upon reading the wildly divergent comments it got this morning I wrote and then rewrote and rewrote again a response attempting to articulate why I made this thread, only to then delete the whole thing.

I"ll just say this.

I was in middle school when Bush Sr. was president, and to me he was little more than the Dana Carvey SNL caricature, sending troops to war and lying about taxes and getting sick on foreign dignitaries. People joked about Reagan then too, to be sure, but I also remember Reagan being respected by my parents, their family, their friends. They didn't talk about Bush Sr. the way they talked about Reagan, if they talked about him at all, and that was usually to make a negative comparison to Reagan. Bush Sr. was just... a joke. So my perception of Bush Sr. as a president was informed largely by cartoonish mockery, and that perception didn't change for years -- until I watched this documentary when it originally aired in 2008. It then became apparent that he was more than the presidential footnote and butt of jokes my memories of ignorant youth portrayed him to be.

So, I made this thread because young me was an idiot.

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I stood up for him in his death thread because he was getting unfairly piled upon by the mob. If you weren't alive or younger than like 3rd grade you shouldn't bag on him because he was doing his job according to the mandate of the country. It's easy to pick things out about policy in hindsight, but people need to put things into perspective. Everyone is looking at the past through these polarized lenses that DT and current social movements has put on their faces. It's fair to criticize and be angry about his stance on rights but you also have to realize it takes citizens having a majority opinion in order to get leaders to act. Obama had a majority opinion on gay rights, he acted and made it law. It's like some of you have no idea how much progress has been made in the last 30 years. I suppose, being born with a cell phone in your hand.... you just expect it to happen.

 

[Greyham]

Just want to add this to stem confusion. His son, unfortunately is a real war criminal. He was a lackey to the oil industry and no matter where you stand on 9/11 he gave into a mob mentality fortified by corporate interest that led to an illegal invasion of a sovereign country and 20 years of perpetual war.

 

[Kirblar]

I stood up for him in his death thread because he was getting unfairly piled upon by the mob. If you weren't alive or younger than like 3rd grade you shouldn't bag on him because he was doing his job according to the mandate of the country. It's easy to pick things out about policy in hindsight, but people need to put things into perspective. Everyone is looking at the past through these polarized lenses that DT and current social movements has put on their faces. It's fair to criticize and be angry about his stance on rights but you also have to realize it takes citizens having a majority opinion in order to get leaders to act. Obama had a majority opinion on gay rights, he acted and made it law. It's like some of you have no idea how much progress has been made in the last 30 years. I suppose, being born with a cell phone in your hand.... you just expect it to happen.

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Obama actually didn't, it was a SC decision where public opinion was massively in favor but the GOP controlled congress at the time and the nature of our legislative members being older made it so that getting anything passed through a D congress wasn't happening. The conservative lean of the Senate/EC is real apparent in his 08 Civil Unions stance.

 

[Alimnassor]

He's evil just like every US President-int not named Carter or Obama. He illegally invaded Iraq and killed thousands of innocent people, refused to recognize the AIDs epidemic and as such is behind the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people he didn't view as "important". The only US President I still respect is Carter and Obama.

 

[Realyst]

He's evil just like every US President-int not named Carter or Obama. He illegally invaded Iraq and killed thousands of innocent people, refused to recognize the AIDs epidemic and as such is behind the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people he didn't view as "important". The only US President I still respect is Carter and Obama.

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HW DIDN'T INVADE IRAQ. HE PUSHED SADDAM BACK INTO IRAQ FROM KUWAIT.

 

[molnizzle]

Pretty easy to tell which posters weren't even alive back then. Straight making shit up because they're ignorant. War criminal? ffs.

His son on the other hand...

 

[Trojita]

He appears to be a much better president than he seemed and was remembered at the time for. Of course there are some complexities and with as much responsibility as someone with the presidency, there's always going to be some fuck up, thing or situation ignored, or blood on your hands.

The discourse from some posters on this forum just seems to be getting worse as time goes on.

Insulting Kirblar for stating a fact and thinking he is somehow the worst poster on this forum?

 

[Greyham]

Obama actually didn't, it was a SC decision where public opinion was massively in favor but the GOP controlled congress at the time and the nature of our legislative members being older made it so that getting anything passed through a D congress wasn't happening. The conservative lean of the Senate/EC is real apparent in his 08 Civil Unions stance.

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You are absolutely right Kirblar, and much appreciated for pointing that out the public opinion did support it when it the court decided and this is how progress is made right?

Also, Obama did have a mandate but outside of the ACA he got shut down by the minority party on way too much the people wanted.

 

[Deleted member 15125]

Pretty easy to tell which posters weren't even alive back then. Straight making shit up because they're ignorant. War criminal? ffs.

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https://theintercept.com/2018/12/01...war-crimes-racism-and-obstruction-of-justice/

Under Bush Sr., the U.S. dropped a whopping 88,500 tons of bombs on Iraq and Iraqi-occupied Kuwait, many of which resulted in horrific civilian casualties. In February 1991, for example, a U.S. airstrike on an air-raid shelter in the Amiriyah neighborhood of Baghdad killed at least 408 Iraqi civilians. According to Human Rights Watch, the Pentagon knew the Amiriyah facility had been used as a civil defense shelter during the Iran-Iraq war and yet had attacked without warning. It was, concluded HRW, "a serious violation of the laws of war."

U.S. bombs also destroyed essential Iraqi civilian infrastructure — from electricity-generating and water-treatment facilities to food-processing plants and flour mills. This was no accident. As Barton Gellman of the Washington Post reported in June 1991: "Some targets, especially late in the war, were bombed primarily to create postwar leverage over Iraq, not to influence the course of the conflict itself. Planners now say their intent was to destroy or damage valuable facilities that Baghdad could not repair without foreign assistance. … Because of these goals, damage to civilian structures and interests, invariably described by briefers during the war as 'collateral' and unintended, was sometimes neither."

Got that? The Bush administration deliberately targeted civilian infrastructure for "leverage" over Saddam Hussein. How is this not terrorism? As a Harvard public health team concluded in June 1991, less than four months after the end of the war, the destruction of Iraqi infrastructure had resulted in acute malnutrition and "epidemic" levels of cholera and typhoid.

By January 1992, Beth Osborne Daponte, a demographer with the U.S. Census Bureau, was estimating that Bush's Gulf War had caused the deaths of 158,000 Iraqis, including 13,000 immediate civilian deaths and 70,000 deaths from the damage done to electricity and sewage treatment plants. Daponte's numbers contradicted the Bush administration's, and she was threatened by her superiors with dismissal for releasing "false information." (Sound familiar?)

 

[Skelepuzzle]

Rest well, you AIDS erasing, last respectable Republican hero.

;_;

If only he changed his behavior, he might still be with us.

 

[Benita]

He's evil just like every US President-int not named Carter or Obama. He illegally invaded Iraq and killed thousands of innocent people, refused to recognize the AIDs epidemic and as such is behind the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people he didn't view as "important". The only US President I still respect is Carter and Obama.

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You cool with drone strikes?

Making sweeping judgements on the character of a person based on a few moments in a role of such complexity is a shit show.

 

[Deleted member 15125]

Also, super not impressed with those who defend HW's inaction on the AIDS crisis with, "Well, it just wasn't understood at the time." There were politicians who did stand up for the humanity of gay people at the time.

 

[Nerokis]

So people in here refusing to watch a piece about one of the most important figures in American political history unless it's a pure distillation of their own condemnation? That's pretty narrow-minded.

It's like some of you think that acknowledging a person as a rounded individual with qualities both good and bad is a tacit endorsement of absolutely everything they did.

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This is kind of where I am. All the relevant Intercept pieces have provided some crucial context, but there is no doubt something like American Experience advances understanding, as well. George H.W. Bush was an important figure, understanding him requires understanding a much bigger picture, and the effort to ensure we don't lose sight of his worst aspects is perfectly compatible with an effort to understand him in full.

I get the media fails in that "don't lose sight of his worst aspects" thing a lot, but still, this reflexive allergy to something like American Experience is a bit strange to me. If you already have a skeptical bent, if you already have some context, you're pretty well equipped to process a potentially flawed but usefully detailed take. And the bottom line is this: nothing about the flaws of a figure like H.W. invalidate the usefulness of knowing those details.