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replicantUK

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
838
United Kingdom
Cult of personality. I'll eventually watch KF's show because I wanna see Greg, Andy, Nick, etc. I don't care about VR.

News sites don't get that privilege. That's why Greg's doing it, he's trying to help push VR.

The cult of personality works both ways. It attracts and turns off people - with the later probably being more common. I'm not a fan of KF, but it has character & USP which attracts viewers and commercial support.

It would be interesting to fast forward 10 years and see what traditional sites remain.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
Except that we don't really know the sales, just that HTC and Facebook are happy with the sales. Just like Microsoft is happy with their exclusive sales, or EA is happy with their Battlefront II numbers.

When things are good, publishers always hammer in the sales numbers, when things aren't good, publishers will whistle around without data.

The rift and Vive have each sold 1 million units. Sony has sold 2 million.
 

Nacho

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,108
NYC
Isn't this a chicken and egg situation ? You don't write vr reviews because no one reads them but poeple need reviews of vr games to consider buying a vr headset.
Yeah this sentiment isn't new or revelatory. Anyone whose into vr has definitely noticed a lack of quality journalism surrounding VR tech and especially software from big name sites. It's initially frustrating but then you learn to get around it. And of course because now I go to specific sites like roadtovr, etc, that aren't great sites but at least more likely to have news I want, om mot checking ign or any other traditional some for that. Not writing about it is turning away an already small and niche audience. Not saying it isn't a sound decision from a business standpoint, bit there's no use in sites being disappointed in VR related traffic if they barely try either.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,969
I mean I can only speak for myself but the first three years of VR being seemingly 60% shooting galleries and 0.5% first person adventure games, the actual most obvious genre for VR, just means I've had absolutely no reason to invest
 

Cats

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,929
I feel bad because this is where my interest lies with gaming now and I really want VR to succeed, but I'm a very bad VR consumer. I play 1 game exclusively which was free, and have a vr backlog of 4 other free programs I need to get to. So I haven't bought 1 game nor plan to right now, I don't read reviews, I kinda just mind my own business and play that 1 game.

I wonder how many other people populate the medium like me.
 

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,440
The cost of entry is still too high for what you get. Like, it's neat but there are so many awesome games that don't need me to get an expensive add on.

And is the "immersion" worth it? I mean, games can already make us feel such a range of emotions without the headsets that I don't see how beyond "this is neat" it really changes things.

And yes, I've tried VR and I find the tech pretty cool. I'm taking about video games especially. I think VR tech has tons of cool uses.
 

Lunar15

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,647
I'd be interested to know which articles get the moat clicks (and are therefore worthwhile). My suspicion is that it would not be what we'd 'want' to be popular content.

As someone who works in the data analytics team of a gaming website network, I can tell you it's not as depressing as you think. But it's still pretty depressing. Back 6 years ago, everything was about SEO, so it was 100% "search" terms. Unsurprisingly, cheat and walkthrough websites did really well. I remember every website had a "cheats" guy. Their job was literally just to build a game faqs esque database of cheats and guides. It still exists, and the major sites still do it, but it's not nearly as profitable as it once was.

Today, everything is about sharing. People don't really go to websites anymore, they find everything through social media or forums like Era and Reddit. On one hand, this has been good for more niche games, especially Japanese games. If you can get a small yet concentrated and passionate group to start sharing your stuff, it'll eventually pass into the mainstream, which was impossible in the old days. But there has to be something immediately eye catching about the article or the headline, or else it won't work on social. But ultimately, it's kind of what you think it is: the articles about big games circulate the most. Click-bait headlines do well for a reason, especially ones that essentially "force" you to have an opinion or want to see if your opinion is refuted. This is shareable, it's the nature of the internet. If you asked me what does the best: PUBG (Just rotate in top selling game, really), deals, 90's nostalgia, and politically incendiary stuff (to a degree... too much and it actually turns people away. Hot takes do best, thoughtful opinions do not.).

But overall, it's actually an extremely depressing landscape in games media. Websites are less and less commercially viable as advertising dollars are going more and more towards the social networks themselves.
 

srtrestre

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,965
Sounds about right in my case. My interest in VR has dropped to nearly zero, so I just can't be arsed to click on VR articles. In fact I'd say I found VR more intriguing before I tried it (found the whole experience underwhelming and cumbersome.)
 

Patrick Klepek

Editor at Remap, Crossplay
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
669
Near Chicago
I have a different perspective. I write for a much smaller website (Push Square) than the publications in the OP, but I find that we've actually carved out a bit of a niche with PSVR content because so few sites are covering it to begin with. He's right that reviews don't do great (reviews in general don't do great, but that's a whole other discussion), but some of our long-tail PSVR features have done pretty well. We've also managed to grow moderately on YouTube by being one of the few channels to actually take a look at some of the games. Again, nothing insane, but the audience is there if you want to find it.

Of course, none of the modest success Push Square is having will be enough to keep gigantic sites like IGN in business, but I tend to find it all depends on audience. For us, there's almost no point in writing about Overwatch or Destiny, because there's too much competition and our readers care more about PlayStation exclusives, etc. But that doesn't mean Overwatch and Destiny aren't huge (they obviously are), it just means they don't really perform for us because we haven't made our name covering those games.

Just my perspective anyway.

Yeah, that's why I left open the caveat that VR-focused places might be doing just fine, because they're catering explicitly to the audience. That wouldn't surprise me in the least.

One thing I'll add is that writing stories you think will get an audience and writing stories that are just worth doing for the sake of doing them is a balance. I write, report, and publish all sorts of pieces that I think might do well, but end up not bubbling up for a billion unknown reasons. Sometimes you feel a story needs to be told, period. Traffic doesn't determine my salary or non-existent bonus, outside of general goals Waypoint is asked to hit as part of growth management within a company. (And which we manage to hit just fine without changing our general directive of writing stuff we're interested in!) But it's also true that you want to write things that people like? Are interested in? Want to talk about? It's a natural tendency for writer.

I do agree with people pointing out how much better VR does on video, relative to print. But I also wonder how much of that is genuine interest in the technology/games versus seeing people act goofy on video.
 
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Luchashaq

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
4,329
Despite trying a dozen so called "good" vr games on 4 different headsets the inly enjoyment I've gotten from VR is watching Giantbomb play drunken bar fight or whatever it's called.

At this point any positive review by anyone for a vr game would meet nothing but skepticism from me due to all the crap that got hyped so far.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,969
But overall, it's actually an extremely depressing landscape in games media. Websites are less and less commercially viable as advertising dollars are going more and more towards the social networks themselves.
I'm actually really curious if this continues on its current trend. I have insight into the numbers of a company that spent millions of dollars on web advertising last year, and we actually slashed our Facebook ad budget and dumped a bunch of money into Google towards the end of last year because Facebook changed the content algorithm and our acquisition cost jumped through the roof. Even if they change it back, there's an uncertainty there that makes people nervous internally...are they going to pull the rug out from under us again?
 

FriedConsole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,187
Maybe for written content, but my son watches youtube creators playing VR games all the time. For type of experience that benefits mostly from being there rather than hearing about it, I'm not surprised that written content doesn't do well. There's playing the game, watching someone else do it, then reading about someone else doing it. Written content is 2 steps removed from the optimal experience.

I think that is true of all written games media these days. I bet what gets clicks these days are just hot takes, outrage, and hot button issues.
 

1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,252
I feel bad because this is where my interest lies with gaming now and I really want VR to succeed, but I'm a very bad VR consumer. I play 1 game exclusively which was free, and have a vr backlog of 4 other free programs I need to get to. So I haven't bought 1 game nor plan to right now, I don't read reviews, I kinda just mind my own business and play that 1 game.

I wonder how many other people populate the medium like me.

I own more than one game, but I'm also a lousy customer. I've posted this before, but I really do feel VR came a couple years too late. There was a period I was buying junk left and right (stuff I'll never play if I live another 50 years). People's digital collection have become so saturated, it's just really hard to justify buying lots of new stuff. Which has the chilling affect of lousy sales numbers. Which drives developers out. And cuts down on experimentation. I don't think anyone's to really blame in this cycle, it's just unfortunate that VR couldn't have arrived when the middle class game was thriving and developers could afford to be a little more adventurous.
 

Lunar15

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,647
I'm actually really curious if this continues on its current trend. I have insight into the numbers of a company that spent millions of dollars on web advertising last year, and we actually slashed our Facebook ad budget and dumped a bunch of money into Google towards the end of last year because Facebook changed the content algorithm and our acquisition cost jumped through the roof. Even if they change it back, there's an uncertainty there that makes people nervous internally...are they going to pull the rug out from under us again?

Well yeah, that's kind of this year's thing, huh? Everyone's turning on Facebook. Facebook promised us all this traffic, but all that ended up happening is that they monetized our headlines and we don't see any of it. They keep their algorithm a secret, change it arbitrarily, then everyone has to frantically try to change to figure out what the new formula is. Really, really hate facebook. What's worse is they inflate their numbers from time to time and rarely get called out for it.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
Isn't this a chicken and egg situation ? You don't write vr reviews because no one reads them but poeple need reviews of vr games to consider buying a vr headset.
Pre order culture already tells us certain people are willing to buy without reviews.


They are important but early adopters are the evangelists for every new product.
 

tadale

Member
Oct 25, 2017
692
Atlanta
I sought out Moss reviews on Tuesday.

That being said, even as a PSVR owner, there are few times I'm actively looking for information about upcoming games. Moss is the first VR game I've played since maybe Psychonauts (thought I'm still looking forward to trying Doom and Skyrim when I get some time). The titles that catch my interest are few and far between, and I'm generally not excited by the two genres that seem to be most prevalent in VR: arena shooting galleries and sandboxes like Job Simulator.
 

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
Sounds about right. Everytime they start talking about VR in IGN's Beyond podcast I sign off. I don't own the thing and don't plan to anytime soon.
 

Lunar15

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,647
Another key element to this is that most websites had to "pivot to video", since display banner rates fell sharply while a lot of advertisers were putting money into video ads. Also, video content was seen as more shareable, and Facebook incentivized this. VR doesn't really lend itself well to video. In fact, it just looks really embarrassing on video, and it's kinda hard to convey the feeling of being "in the game" which is what makes the experience really special for those who have tried it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,767
I think that is true of all written games media these days. I bet what gets clicks these days are just hot takes, outrage, and hot button issues.

Absolutely. Polygon reached to the bottom of the barrel yesterday and made an outrage article on box art. And they admitted they had outrage for 'the sake of [clicks]" in the last sentence of it. Sites are not even hiding that anymore. They do not have to, because outrage drama sells.

It is to the point, they can tell people to their faces, "we are manipulating your 'outrage' right now", and people will still eat it up, lol.
 
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Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,404
The English Wilderness
That's way too dismissive of the impressive tech we have today. It's nothing like that image.

It hasn't caught on because, 1, it's expensive, and 2, you're still tied to a console/PC. Obviously I can't accurately predict the future of VR, but when it's inexpensive and free of wires and other physical constraints it'll become more popular.

You realise all this is exactly what people were saying twenty five years ago?
 

Deleted member 2785

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,119
That's way too dismissive of the impressive tech we have today. It's nothing like that image.

It hasn't caught on because, 1, it's expensive, and 2, you're still tied to a console/PC. Obviously I can't accurately predict the future of VR, but when it's inexpensive and free of wires and other physical constraints it'll become more popular.

Nah.

You realise all this is exactly what people were saying twenty five years ago?

Right, it's the play pattern that's the challenge here. There will be industries and uses for VR that will absolutely be significant and potentially life changing or life saving. Gaming? Niche of a niche. Much more optimistic for AR from a gaming perspective but we're still nowhere close to that happening.
 

Funkallero

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,791
Tokyo
I mean VR is great but it's still pricey and bulky for the common gamer.
Tech and prices evolve rapidly, it'll get there eventually.
No need to force yourself to write about all VR shovelware, just review the games that worth something is OK.
 

Apex88

Member
Jan 15, 2018
1,428
Sounds about right. Everytime they start talking about VR in IGN's Beyond podcast I sign off. I don't own the thing and don't plan to anytime soon.
Proclaiming your ignorance and not wishing to keep upto speed with events is nothing to be proud of.

I don't own PSVR yet, but I'm building up my software collection and holding back on games like Rez, Resident Evil and Bound until I can experience them in VR. Once the V.2 model is available for £200 in the UK I'll buy in. In the meantime I'll keep upto speed with the latest developments and Push Square is one of the sites that gets my clicks.

PSVR hit 2m last year, to the surprise of many on this very site. I'm sure they'll reach 5m by the end of this year when the £199/$199 price point becomes standard.
 

Eggiem

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,774
It would be a shame if I didn't use my new TV as much as possible. No need for an additional add-on device which works with some selected games like RE7, Gran Turismo or Superhot only.
Especially if you can enjoy those in beautiful 4k HDR on the TV.
 

Twingsy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
342
Moon
Most users don't have vr devices, and the price is still that of an entire console or pc, so it makes sense. The hype is gone for the experiences. Nothing really groundbreaking on the horizon either.

It's an enthusiast device ö, like steering wheel and plane set ups.
 

Deleted member 11517

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,260
I think that teleport mechanic found in 90% of VR games killed it as a gaming platform. Developers still haven't found a way to make movement feel natural enough that you don't get sick from playing it. Maybe if one of the big console manufacturers packs in a headset with every version of their system, we might see some traction.

As of now, VR's future is more suited to a classroom environment, or something to entertain residents at a retirement home, or as a novelty to witness something one may not be able to experience on their own.

Having said that, I'd definitely be down to drop some cash on a headset if they were cheaper. I've been waiting to play Rez VR, RE7 and some others just so I can experience them in VR. I just don't feel like I'd be using it much after I'm done with the handful of games I've saved for my VR backlog.

I think the problem is also expectations, much like the Vita, people want certain style of games that aren't really suited for the device.


I don't even know why people would want to move around, probably at the speeds of conventional shooters which are hyper unrealistic, so of course that's gonna not work well in a "virtual reality".


But it is what it is, people have their expectations and developers try catering to them.
 

Deleted member 2620

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,491
It's a bummer that sites dedicated to covering gaming can't give more specialty areas the attention they deserve due to financial pressures.
 

Dorfdad

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
731
I've only been right two times in my gaming life. #1 3D I stayed away from the phenomena didn't buy a 3d TV or any 3D technology because I considered it a FAD.

#2 VR (So far) I fell 100% the same way about the current state of VR. Will it get there for gaming? Im still not sure. While VR does add some immersion the drawbacks are numerous for all but the hardcore users which wont drive the gaming segment. Games are a business and until there is a "SUPER" simple solution that soccer moms can buy and feel safe giving to their kids VR isn't going to go mainstream for gaming. I have a feeling it will stay a Niche product for the most part.

These are just my opinions, but im sure many others feel this way as well. It's cool for short burst but Id rather have advancements in other areas.
 

Bunkles

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,663
Feels like the money Sony spent on PSVR could have gone to a Vita Pro that would have been a much better investment for them, especially in their home country.

VR is too niche and the hardware is nowhere near ready for mainstream adoption.
 

Green Yoshi

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,597
Cologne (Germany)
That's why I still read a (German) print magazine. In their current issue they have reviewed The Inpatient, StarDrone VR, The Pierhead Arcade, Cold Iron and Out of Ammo for PSVR.
 

Deleted member 3876

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,143
I can't speak for anyone else here but I for one don't read most VR news or reviews because I can't use it, so those articles just makes me sad.

VR makes me violently ill--and yeah, I've used all of the major headsets, and so far nobody has a set that doesn't make me, in the parlance of Wayne Campbell, hurl lung butter.

To be fair, I can't watch 3D movies either, barf city.
 

Laser Man

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,683
Jeff Gerstmann and the GB crew is the place to go for VR impressions and discussions.

The VRodeo is too infrequent and basic for impressions imo, I like them when they come up because I like the Giant Bomb people but there are huge breaks between episodes (several months), so there are smaller YT channels that are better for impressions:

Sweviver
Nathie
Cas & Chary
Tribalinstincts
RowdyGuy
Bumble
JoshDub
Mixed Reality TV
etc.

You usually get impressions from more popular games relatively quickly but sometimes also not so popular stuff (Sweviver often has them)
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
23,611
I don't think VR is going away but I genuinely believe that it's use will be more practical educational/training type virtual programs rather than video games or entertainment. The tech is good I just don't see the game side of it really catching fire in the way it needs to anytime soon.
 

Foltzie

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
6,780
I'm late to this topic, but PSVR seems to have sold ~2M units, Occulus rift somewhere north of ~1.5M, and HTV Vive ~1M. The numbers aren't much clearer as the companies aren't trumpeting them, because they are relatively tepid. Combined thats less than Samsung Gear VR which seems to be around ~5M.

So you have a potential max audience of ~2M for PSVR content and ~2.5M for PC VR content.

Its tough to justify content for an audience a sixth of the Wii U audience.
 

T.Slothrop

Member
Jan 21, 2018
176
As someone who works in the data analytics team of a gaming website network, I can tell you it's not as depressing as you think. But it's still pretty depressing. Back 6 years ago, everything was about SEO, so it was 100% "search" terms. Unsurprisingly, cheat and walkthrough websites did really well. I remember every website had a "cheats" guy. Their job was literally just to build a game faqs esque database of cheats and guides. It still exists, and the major sites still do it, but it's not nearly as profitable as it once was.

Today, everything is about sharing. People don't really go to websites anymore, they find everything through social media or forums like Era and Reddit. On one hand, this has been good for more niche games, especially Japanese games. If you can get a small yet concentrated and passionate group to start sharing your stuff, it'll eventually pass into the mainstream, which was impossible in the old days. But there has to be something immediately eye catching about the article or the headline, or else it won't work on social. But ultimately, it's kind of what you think it is: the articles about big games circulate the most. Click-bait headlines do well for a reason, especially ones that essentially "force" you to have an opinion or want to see if your opinion is refuted. This is shareable, it's the nature of the internet. If you asked me what does the best: PUBG (Just rotate in top selling game, really), deals, 90's nostalgia, and politically incendiary stuff (to a degree... too much and it actually turns people away. Hot takes do best, thoughtful opinions do not.).

But overall, it's actually an extremely depressing landscape in games media. Websites are less and less commercially viable as advertising dollars are going more and more towards the social networks themselves.

Those wanting to get into the game writing gig, this is the only post you need to read. This has been the reality since at least '08, back when I worked for a site attempting to do "thoughtful" games writing. This guy hit the nail dead on the head.
 

Lunar15

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,647
Those wanting to get into the game writing gig, this is the only post you need to read. This has been the reality since at least '08, back when I worked for a site attempting to do "thoughtful" games writing. This guy hit the nail dead on the head.

Well, another key element is "time". I just don't think people have the time to read a long, thoughtful article. Or rather, there's other content they can be searching that's more immediately digestible. This is why streams and youtube stuff do well - you can multitask during it. Reading requires your full attention.
 

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
Proclaiming your ignorance and not wishing to keep upto speed with events is nothing to be proud of.

I don't own PSVR yet, but I'm building up my software collection and holding back on games like Rez, Resident Evil and Bound until I can experience them in VR. Once the V.2 model is available for £200 in the UK I'll buy in. In the meantime I'll keep upto speed with the latest developments and Push Square is one of the sites that gets my clicks.

PSVR hit 2m last year, to the surprise of many on this very site. I'm sure they'll reach 5m by the end of this year when the £199/$199 price point becomes standard.
Ignorance huh? Judging from the lack of traffic everytime someone writes about VR means Im not alone.
 

Deleted member 31423

Account closed at user request
Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,201
People actually read reviews regardless if theyre vr or not? Or even visit gaming sites? Between Era and video reviews on youtube i havent been to a gaming site in years.
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,204
Problem with VR articles and videos is none of them can really express what it's like to be there in the moment in-game. Its kinda like a person describing their dreams to you in blog form. Or a first person video of someone making an omelette. Taking away the interactivity of playing say Contra by watching a let's play video is a step down from the experience of playing Contra... Now imagine someone explaining in writing the act of actually pressing the buttons to play Contra on an NES controller.
 

Fafalada

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,065
Much more optimistic for AR from a gaming perspective
That's a meaningless distinction - past the 'screen in your hand' gimmicks which never really had much potential anyway, VR/AR are essentially the same tech, so we're literally just talking different software in the end-game. I agree public is more willing to explore AR, but until we get past the headset form factor I doubt it'll amount to much there either.

But I disagree about the initial assertion more (AR/VR gaming being a subset of the current industry). I mean it currently operates this way because those were/are best equipped to provide entertainment value quickly and with some kind of impact (other less interactive 360 content speaks for itself really), but fundamentally the medium at its best is a completely different type of entertainment, and speaking of end-game, it's inevitably headed for a very separate thing from flat-screen entertainment (tech-perspective is a superset - but that's kind of neither here nor there).
 
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Deleted member 6730

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,526
They've talked about this on the Bombcast. People who haven't used VR don't really care about VR.
That's on the companies who make VR to get the masses interested in VR. It's a massive investment unless you're using Gear VR or Cardboard and VR demos generally aren't out there. The most I've seen is Sony having a PSVR demo at a Best Buy 30 minutes away from me.
 

shadowhaxor

EIC of Theouterhaven
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,728
Claymont, Delaware
So, this is very similar to a conversation that I had with my team a month ago. We wanted to start doing articles and perhaps some video on VR. The only issue, outside of no one having a VR set, despite PR keep sending us VR game codes, is no one is interested in covering them. I'd pick up either a PSVR (I've stopped myself 3 times now) or a Vive, but I simply have no interest in covering the technology or the games. Sure, it was interesting at the start (Oculus vs Vive vs PSVR), but the lack of killer apps ultimately killed any desire we had to cover VR.

I didn't know Kinda Funny is doing a VR show, so I'll have to check that. But as many people have started, I'm also part of the issue. If there's a VR article/review, I tend to skip it as I have no desire or interest to ingest them. VR is definitely in a weird position right now.
 

ABIC

Banned
Nov 19, 2017
1,170
The funniest thing about this is how Klepek frames "incentives" as the core of the issue.

It's these "incentives" that grew the monstrous stranglehold of the game reviews industry and created the ridonkulous reviewer's swag package that came with the newest Halos and such. KJP flying out reviewers to Japan to a spa retreat to review MGS4 is another.

If you're acting to maximize clicks, what you get is sensational headlines, deliberately controversial opinions and of course, altered review scores stemming from various incentives offered by publishers.

I'm really glad that the game review websites no longer have the influence they had 5, 10 years ago.
 

ARC-2R

Banned
Jan 11, 2018
769
Isn't this the same guy who complained about people bringing him games to review that he doesn't believe will bring him traffic. Like, "how dare you not consider what's in it for me to review your game.". Seems like a first world problem to me.