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Soundscream

Member
Nov 2, 2017
9,232
I don't understand why much of this conversation is "other people get paid less" instead of "why isn't everyone paid more". A single person is "low income" in SF if they are below $82,200 as of 2018. https://sfgov.org/scorecards/safety-net/poverty-san-francisco
Well it's your own fault for how you framed this thread.

Instead of arguing that game media in major cities aren't paid enough, you tried to make it into Giant Bomb underpaying it's employees. Which is something that isn't true based on other people coming forward about their salaries at the time, and Patrick even saying he wasn't taken advantage of.
 

WillyFive

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,976
Awful thread goal, but the topic is excellent with the addition with all the other journalists weighing in.

Glad this information is being shared.
 

perfectchaos007

It's Happening
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,231
Texas
There's a reason why companies tell their employees to not disclose with other employees what you make. If you find out you're making considerably less than an employee whos doing the same amount of work as you then you may be emboldened to demand a raise. If too many employees do that its bad for the company's bottom line!
 

Nerokis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,561
New Hampshire (where I live) is an "at will" employment state so you can be fired for any reason. My wife got fired from her job for the excuse of "job performance" years ago, but it was because there was a clique and she didn't fit in with them. She wasn't the only one it's happened to at that place.

"at will" doesn't include reasons that are straight up illegal, which firing you for disclosing your salary would be

of course, the reality is you're disempowered relative to your employer either way, but making it explicit that you aren't to disclose your salary without repercussion strikes me as a policy you might have at least some leverage to push back against

just fyi, you can find your regional National Labor Relations Board office here
 

thepenguin55

Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,797
let's be real OP made this thread to "drag" Giant Bomb when based on the context and follow up tweets, that wasn't anything close to Patrick's Intent. That's just the nature of the internet these days tho.



He's not wrong. It didn't take long for this site to turn into the old one (from prior to the exodus... the current post exodus version of the old site is still a whole other animal).
It's important for folks who make the higher end of salaries to disclose them because it helps dispel the notion there isn't money available to others. If the individuals making less are the only ones disclosing their salaries it only reinforces the power of employers.

You're right and I appreciate you being so open about this.
 

Haribo

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
979
Oh they're giving out NUMBERS out there I might see what's up in games journalism real quick.

lmaoooooo in all seriousness seeing this type of disparity makes me just want to fuck off somewhere cause this system is not changing anytime soon.
 

MHWilliams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,473
Note, I'd like to say I don't hate on Patrick because he hit that salary. S'all good. I'll fight him in the streets because of his bad opinions—you can't FACE ME KLEPEK—but we're good otherwise.

It's more of a systemic issue with the the industry and employers, and one that extends beyond our industry as a whole. And that's what's worth highlighting and why I'm glad everyone of all stripes are sharing.
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
Things must be different in the gaming media. The number one rule of any job I've had is don't discuss salaries with your peers. Since I've been friends with several of them on social media over the years, sharing that kind of info would have gotten me in trouble. It's probably to avoid people asking why someone makes more than they do, but it is what it is. I keep my lips sealed and keep my job.
youtu.be

Adam Ruins Everything - Why You Should Tell Coworkers Your Salary

Adam reveals the real reason your boss doesn't want you sharing your salary.Subscribe: http://bit.ly/truTVSubscribeWatch Full Episodes for FREE: http://bit.l...
 

Patrick Klepek

Editor at Remap, Crossplay
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
669
Near Chicago
Note, I'd like to say I don't hate on Patrick because he hit that salary. S'all good. I'll fight him in the streets because of his bad opinions—you can't FACE ME KLEPEK—but we're good otherwise.

It's more of a systemic issue with the the industry and employers, and one that extends beyond our industry as a whole. And that's what's worth highlighting and why I'm glad everyone of all stripes are sharing.

smh don't get me started about 3D World again
 

Fabtacular

Member
Jul 11, 2019
4,244
At the time, it was for access to most publishers/developers. These days I'm less sure.
I mean, I think it's also where the type of young people who want to be in games journalism want to live. For the most part they don't want to live in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

But yeah, when Giant Beast moved to NYC I couldn't believe it. It was like getting out of the fire and into the frying pan.
 

Avitus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,904
Seems about right for a niche website in a still relatively niche market. Having your site split across two of the most expensive cities in NA seems more like the issue, although I guess it comes with their ownership.
 

FaceHugger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,949
USA
Same for one of my buddies; he went from game development to a big (game) middleware supplier to a research job at Nvidia. Money was never a big motivator but the gamesindustry is a far cry compared to other industries.. That said, financial will probably pay even more.

The second guy I mentioned also did middleware, he never did actually work on a game, I remember that much, just not the company. But he went from job uncertainty and I think he said somewhere around $70k in Texas, 50 hour weeks, to doing business intelligence / data science in the health field for $120k last I heard him complaining about his pay (which, $120k in my area, is kingly pay, seriously, he shouldn't be complaining lol).
 

Midgarian

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 16, 2020
2,619
Midgar
4) It's also true that at no point was I offered a pay raise, which means there was no system at Whiskey Media or CBS in place to reward employees (or match cost of living) who continued to put in good work. That's bad, and punishes employees who don't go out of their way to demand a raise. That's a management issue, but also reliably in line with every other gaming media outlet at the time.
This part made me reflect on my own workplace and how so many people in life just take it for granted that "management will never give you a raise, you have to fight for one." I naïvely never actually considered that as a sign of "bad management". Just as "the way things are done."
 

Aether

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,421
You can't compare US and European salaries.
Quick google search : https://www.quora.com/How-come-sala...d-countries-for-an-equivalent-quality-of-life
It's like you need to get so much more in the US because you have to pay a lot by yourself.
Shure, i get that. Still, it looks expensive even compared to the sorounding areas.
And if you get enough and can put something at the side, you can essentially put as much as a whole salary elsewhere to the side, and after a view years just move somewhere else. And from what i see 65-100k is a solid salary, even for SF.

And if you own a home, because , lets say you grew up tehre or you inherit a place, you can live the rich life everywhere else.
Most comodities (clothes, entertainment, tech, etc) have the same price as everywhere else(since we have the internet they have to compete with).

Minimum wage in San Francisco is $15.59/hr. On July 1 that goes up to $16.07. That is equivalent to $31,180/yr and $32,140/yr.

If you work in San Francisco, and you're working full time, you're not making less than $30k/yr. Most baristas and other service folks will make more than min wage. City bus drivers start at around $48k/yr and the median salary is around $65-70k/yr, IIRC. A handful make over $250k/yr (via overtime).

If you take out the cost of housing, living in SF can easily be affordable. So basically, anyone who grew up here is going to be OK.

1) If you own a home (or your parents own a home and let you live there) - You won the life lottery in SF.
2) If you have a rent controlled apartment - You won second prize in the life lottery.

Otherwise, it's a matter of bunking up with roomies or living in the exurbs and commuting in on BART.

Yeah, i asumed that much. Still does not explain why companies stay there. It just does not seem feasable.
You can do most of the stuff they have to from a notebook from anywhere, and the interviews/visits can be paid for, should be cheaper then paying these high wages. (or without having to underpay their stuff in that area)

For context:
Here a software engineer with a degree gets ~40k p.a. gross (before tax and social security) after 3 years, 33k/ p.a. is the starting income. (thats 26k and and 22k after tax and social security, net)

I really think it's also an elitist perception thing Among the companies. Like why have your company in philly or idk North Carolina when you can brag that your company is located in the most expensive city in the US etc
Maybe. It shure is a prestigious thing for young companies (partially thanks to the media representation of SF), but for bigger/older ones i cant think of a good reason to stay there. (ok, the established workforce would be a realy good reason...)



That also explayins why everyone is buying iphones and expensive tech, since prices for that statt are not bound to the area, so for SF salaries a iphone is not that much of an investment compared to a remote place in the us where the salary is just a fraction or other place.
 

Aether

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,421
Things must be different in the gaming media. The number one rule of any job I've had is don't discuss salaries with your peers. Since I've been friends with several of them on social media over the years, sharing that kind of info would have gotten me in trouble. It's probably to avoid people asking why someone makes more than they do, but it is what it is. I keep my lips sealed and keep my job.
There's a reason why companies tell their employees to not disclose with other employees what you make. If you find out you're making considerably less than an employee whos doing the same amount of work as you then you may be emboldened to demand a raise. If too many employees do that its bad for the company's bottom line!

Here the culture is still "dont talk about your salary", and some companies even let you sign a document that you wont talk about your salary...but that is actually illegal and would not hold in court. But people dont know that and think since they signed it that they cant talk.

It is essential for worker empowerment that we can openly discuss how much we earn, even if there is a risk that some get wrong expectations because they compare themselves with people from other regions/with differente qualification/...
 

SuperBanana

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,740
There's a reason why companies tell their employees to not disclose with other employees what you make. If you find out you're making considerably less than an employee whos doing the same amount of work as you then you may be emboldened to demand a raise. If too many employees do that its bad for the company's bottom line!

When people started to talk about salaries at my last job they discovered they had been underpaid by a billion dollars over 10 years.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,110
Things must be different in the gaming media. The number one rule of any job I've had is don't discuss salaries with your peers. Since I've been friends with several of them on social media over the years, sharing that kind of info would have gotten me in trouble. It's probably to avoid people asking why someone makes more than they do, but it is what it is. I keep my lips sealed and keep my job.
Sadly that is the culture, but it shouldn't be. Literally only helps the companies in underpaying workers.
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
This is utter bullshit, talk about a disingenuous take
I mean, the example is debatable (the one who screenshotted the poll even said he was kidding) and I wouldn't say it's the majority (I'd say the majority ranges more from indifferent to bare minimum low effort woke), but this isn't an uncommon sentiment and plenty of people have said the same on (in this very thread) and off site.
 

DontHateTheBacon

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,318
I can't think of a worse time for this trend to be going around twitter, lol. The pandemic and our economy tanking in the US seem like a pretty good reason to maybe chill on this for now but hey, what do I know?

Especially because most people's salaries that are making the rounds are waaaaaaay above the median income (~$32,000) around the country.

Also, the framing of what Patrick said is just...bad. His statement wasn't some nasty, negative take on Giantbomb, but seems to be framed that way?
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
I can't think of a worse time for this trend to be going around twitter, lol. The pandemic and our economy tanking in the US seem like a pretty good reason to maybe chill on this for now but hey, what do I know?

Especially because most people's salaries that are making the rounds are waaaaaaay above the median income (~$32,000) around the country.

Also, the framing of what Patrick said is just...bad. His statement wasn't some nasty, negative take on Giantbomb, but seems to be framed that way?
I mean, no one in New York that makes 40K thinks, "well I'm above the country median so I can't complain".
 

funtastrophe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
255
65k in SF? How can you survive that there

I keep seeing this sentiment that $65k is like earning a bag of rocks a month (and $3500 has been posted a couple times in this thread as a typical SF-area monthly rent). This seems somewhat unbalanced. I work in NYC, and $45k is enough to buy a house in the suburbs (in my case, the majority of my principal was saved on a $26k/yr network manager salary). I currently make just a little more than that mythical $65k/yr, and if I really wanted to I could buy a second house in one of the boroughs, and I could likely even rent a cheap apartment at the same time.

At the same time, I did a quick browse on Zillow for both apartments and housing. There are a fair amount of studio and 1b apartments going for well under $1500/mo in the Bay Area, a surprising number of those in the city itself. There are a huge number of homes to buy in the area that my old $45k salary could swing, if with some sacrifice, and even a few that look eminently affordable. Taxes even seem crazy low (but like I said: I live in the suburbs of New York City).

I mean, yeah, most people make far below this range, and it really sucks. But I'm not sure I can wrap my head around the idea that ~$50k or higher salary is a pauper's wage, even in the shadow of a big city.
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
I keep seeing this sentiment that $65k is like earning a bag of rocks a month (and $3500 has been posted a couple times in this thread as a typical SF-area monthly rent). This seems somewhat unbalanced. I work in NYC, and $45k is enough to buy a house in the suburbs (in my case, the majority of my principal was saved on a $26k/yr network manager salary). I currently make just a little more than that mythical $65k/yr, and if I really wanted to I could buy a second house in one of the boroughs, and I could likely even rent a cheap apartment at the same time.

At the same time, I did a quick browse on Zillow for both apartments and housing. There are a fair amount of studio and 1b apartments going for well under $1500/mo in the Bay Area, a surprising number of those in the city itself. There are a huge number of homes to buy in the area that my old $45k salary could swing, if with some sacrifice, and even a few that look eminently affordable. Taxes even seem crazy low (but like I said: I live in the suburbs of New York City).

I mean, yeah, most people make far below this range, and it really sucks. But I'm not sure I can wrap my head around the idea that ~$50k or higher salary is a pauper's wage, even in the shadow of a big city.
Can I see a picture of this house you can afford for 45K in New York with no existing debt I'd imagine?
 

funtastrophe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
255
Can I see a picture of this house you can afford for 45K in New York with no existing debt I'd imagine?

I...guess? Erm, let the home-shaming begin?


"no existing debt" is something you just made up on the spot right here, and I'm not sure why. Debt is part of owning a home. As it is, my mortgage is almost completely paid off -- I have far more liquid assets than would be needed to pay off the rest of it, but that much is partly because of what I make now. Were I still making $45k, I'd be well ahead of my mortgage's schedule, perhaps enough so that I'd be able to finish my 30-yr contract in half that time.
 

Solobbos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,822
Crazy to think that last year I made $17 445 (before taxes) on a side work I do while studying at the University (which is mostly free in Finland), and I still had money to spare and I make more money than most of my student friends. Crazy to think that three times that is still considered a small wage.
 

RyuCookingSomeRice

Alt account
Banned
Feb 5, 2020
1,009
This sounds like plenty of money tbh.

I dont make anything more than 22.000 a year. Working HARD.

He 'only' made 65k wow..
 

Flavius

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,314
Orlando, FL
I...guess? Erm, let the home-shaming begin?


"no existing debt" is something you just made up on the spot right here, and I'm not sure why. Debt is part of owning a home. As it is, my mortgage is almost completely paid off -- I have far more liquid assets than would be needed to pay off the rest of it, but that much is partly because of what I make now. Were I still making $45k, I'd be well ahead of my mortgage's schedule, perhaps enough so that I'd be able to finish my 30-yr contract in half that time.

I've got no dog in this fight. I just want to say -- I love your home!! I own a home much larger than I need (even with 2 teenaged daughters) that sits on a big ass corner lot in Central Florida with grass that I'm currently still irrigating with potable water just so it looks nice -- and it makes me ill sometimes just to think about it. I grew up in a home that was 700sf and did just fine.
 

funtastrophe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
255
I've got no dog in this fight. I just want to say -- I love your home!! I own a home much larger than I need (even with 2 teenaged daughters) that sits on a big ass corner lot in Central Florida with grass that I'm currently still irrigating with potable water just so it looks nice -- and it makes me ill sometimes just to think about it. I grew up in a home that was 700sf and did just fine.

Thanks! I regret that it came off as a fight (and I secretly admit that I didn't take into account pre-existing debt when canvassing some of my $45k assumptions across the populace, though don't tell my rival that!). My parents live in Florida, and water seems crazy expensive there. This one is 950sqft (albeit with a full basement that adds a lot). It's actually smaller than the one I grew up in, as houses were a lot easier for my boomer parents to get in the '70s (yoooo, $40k for lakefront property a walking distance from NYC!).
 

Syriel

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
11,088
At the same time, I did a quick browse on Zillow for both apartments and housing. There are a fair amount of studio and 1b apartments going for well under $1500/mo in the Bay Area, a surprising number of those in the city itself. There are a huge number of homes to buy in the area that my old $45k salary could swing, if with some sacrifice, and even a few that look eminently affordable. Taxes even seem crazy low (but like I said: I live in the suburbs of New York City).

At that price range you're probably looking at SRO units or roommate situations. Not individual apartments.

I'm also not sure where you're going to find homes in SF in the $225k range that aren't BMRs or super tiny condos.

Sure, you can get cheap housing with a 1.5-2 hour drive East, but that isn't a sustainable daily commute.
 

Beer Monkey

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,308
That...seems like a reasonable salary for the job to be honest. I know actual prize-winning photojournalists that make less. People that do meaningful reporting on poverty and race and healthcare issues.
 

1invisibleB

Member
Feb 27, 2020
65
UK
This is utter bullshit, talk about a disingenuous take
Really my friend is it though!!! plz tell me the sub threads you are hanging around in the "gaming section" so i can visit there more also. As a content creator on the internet who was sick of reddit, twitch/youtube chats right/alt right hell holes, i thought the same of era as you also but after looking deeper... its USA left or centralist most of the time with a LOT of shit takes but just more polite. Now dont get me wrong its a god send compared to those places, but those are hell holes after all.
After actually using the site i have just started to follow people who have good takes and just dm people when i think wait whats going on here as dont want to get into arguments. I guess its a problem of getting big for any forum :/ but plz dont think any place is that great or you wont be able to improve it, especially for minorities like me. The mods help this place more than you all know or it would also turn shit real fast imo. I will say though, the good takes and the actual understanding people here are some of the BEST i have met in my time in gaming.

Sorry to derail.

Really appreciate you doing this mate, it helps a lot. People have told me my worth in gaming and i think its not as much as i thought. Even then when you ask for that a lot of people want it for free and run for the hills. It maybe a bit different when making video footage of games but its still very useful to see what others get for gaming/news content when a lot are taking us for a free ride. So unlike what the narrative of the thread started as, it really is very helpful. Keep up the great work.
 

balohna

Member
Nov 1, 2017
4,154
This is a weird thread considering I've seen other journalists mention working full time hours for what amounts to $20k or producing a semi-professional YouTube show for a well known site and getting paid like $150 after 3 months of work.

Eye opening stuff all around.
 

Infcabbage

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,578
Portland, Oregon
Perspective certainly must be key because 65k sounds like so much money compared to the 11k I live on, I literally can't fathom it. But I'm guessing rent in the Bay Area could take away at least half of that after taxes.
 

funtastrophe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
255
At that price range you're probably looking at SRO units or roommate situations. Not individual apartments.

I'm also not sure where you're going to find homes in SF in the $225k range that aren't BMRs or super tiny condos.

Sure, you can get cheap housing with a 1.5-2 hour drive East, but that isn't a sustainable daily commute.

Fremont has some cheap manufactured housing running sub-$200. That's a little over an hour public transit, around forty-five to fifty minutes by car (granted, i'm blindly trusting google maps here). That's likely the kind of home I would have sprung for had I been born several years later and three time zones West of where I am. That's not as solid as the brick I have here, but I did luck out in my particular situation, and this place is far more than I actually need.
 

Darknight

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,799
Fremont has some cheap manufactured housing running sub-$200. That's a little over an hour public transit, around forty-five to fifty minutes by car (granted, i'm blindly trusting google maps here). That's likely the kind of home I would have sprung for had I been born several years later and three time zones West of where I am. That's not as solid as the brick I have here, but I did luck out in my particular situation, and this place is far more than I actually need.
Link? I've never heard of homes in Fremont going anywhere near that price.