Patrick (H) Willems - What's the Point of R-Rated Superheroes?

[Deleted member 7051]

WHAT IF SUPERMAN WAS BAD, GUYS

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Even DC can't help themselves with alternate reality versions of its heroes being bad. Just how many evil Supermen are there now? Part of me is annoyed that Dark Knights storyline is all about Batman because there's enough Batman stuff as it is but, at the same time, I'm equally glad that it's not just a dozen evil versions of Superman running around.

 

[captive]

the only r rated superhero that works is blade and maybe deadpool.

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logan says hello.

 

[Solid SOAP]

Just watched the video; makes some very good points that I've basically already read before, but it's still nice to get the reminder nonetheless.

It's definitely very odd to see DC using many of their characters in strictly R-rated content, especially the likes of Robin and Harley Quinn, both of which were specifically made to appeal to children. Even movies like Joker that I guess "needed" to be for adults, it's just kinda weird that children don't have as many mainstream outlets to explore these characters as they did when we were kids, ya know?

The Mickey Mouse comparison is very apt for Superman. He's essentially the super hero Mickey Mouse, and DC are okay with putting him in flagrantly dark content? Extremely weird.

When I was younger and actually getting introduced to super heroes via films like The Dark Knight, I thought that the character worked better as a dark property. I still maintain that The Dark Knight is an excellent film, but should movies like that be the face of the franchise? I see kids walking around with Batman and Superman shirts, yet all it reminds me of is the grotesque violence seen from Batman v. Superman which, by the way, only has the R-rated cut available on HBO Max.

I'm hoping that DC change their ways a bit for at least a few of their franchises moving forward. I'd love to see a truly optimistic and fun Superman movie on the silver screen.

 

[NameUser]

While I'm fine with there being R rated hero stuff, I am so over the edgy "what if superman was bad? wouldn't that be interesting" line of thought.

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Same. The Boys seems like some try hard bullshit that I will never watch. Seeing a bunch of people be terrible and inflict pain on the masses isn't interesting to me. If I wanted to see that I'd just turn on the news and follow the GOP.

 

[Runner]

the thing is you CAN do r-rated hero things but you have to do something interesting other than just making it violent. For example: Doom Patrol earns its TV-MA. There's blood and gore, yes, but also major adult themes that range from issues with sexuality and infidelity to drug use to

Spoiler: if you havent watched this will make no sense to you but whatever

watching a literal sentient location orgasm

 

[Metallix87]

I'm sure, eventually, we'll see a course correction wherein comic book films are re-tooled to be for kids outright again. That said, I understand we're still dealing with the ripple effects of Batman & Robin's theatrical reception.

 

[ultracal31]

Not that that one is bad since it was just filmed differently instead of danced around with weird editing. But, interesting to see none the less. Makes you wonder all the little ways it was edited that we don't know about to get the PG-13 rating.

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It's also quite random at times when someone who reviews the movie thinks what is "R" and what isn't.

At times you'll get a note that says 'trim off 13 frames to this head hit and we'll give you pg-13' despite the fact there is literally nothing else in the movie that warrants R rating BUT that head hit

 

[Platy]

I agree, if BTAS did what it did being a kid friendly cartoon, than any good batman story can do the same =P

I'm sure, eventually, we'll see a course correction wherein comic book films are re-tooled to be for kids outright again. That said, I understand we're still dealing with the ripple effects of Batman & Robin's theatrical reception.

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Learning to Appreciate Joel Schumacher's Batman

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youtu.be

I haven't watched the boys yet, but they must have worked a 5d miracle is people are talking about depth. Cause the comic.......woah lord

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There is a brazilian expression that is "to get milk out of a stone" and that is basically what happened here. They managed the miracle of turning the comic into something good and non super immature

 

[Solid SOAP]

I agree, if BTAS did what it did being a kid friendly cartoon, than any good batman story can do the same =P

Learning to Appreciate Joel Schumacher's Batman

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youtu.be

There is a brazilian expression that is "to get milk out of a stone" and that is basically what happened here. They managed the miracle of turning the comic into something good and non super immature

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This video is also excellent, I'm definitely gonna start following this guy.

 

[Bigwombat]

What's wrong with r rated comic movies? I fail to see why they should not be a thing

 

[Raxus]

What's wrong with r rated comic movies? I fail to see why they should not be a thing

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Sorry to sound condescending but did you watch the video?

 

[MegaManTrigger]

The Dark Knight would've been better with a bit of blood and some swearing. The attempt to get around it made this Heat-inspired world feel very artificial.

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What...?

How in the hell does swearing improve anything?

 

[Bigwombat]

Sorry to sound condescending but did you watch the video?

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I didn't you caught me. Read the comments though and watched the boys and Watchmen which are both r rated and I really enjoyed them.

I feel like you could make the same agreement about Sci fi movies and I wouldnt agree with the premise either. I'll look at each on an individual basis to see what I think of the appropriateness of an r rating.

For example I tried reading the boys graphic movie and I gave up cause it was juvenile and too aggressive in an off putting way. The boys tv show was great in contrast cause it is more nuisanced. It's super violent but feels in line with the story.

 

[Sketchsanchez]

I don't think there's anything wrong with darkening up properties for kids. Having grown up in the 90s reading comics there's as much of that stuff I enjoyed as well as hated.

I dint automatically roll my eyes and assume edge lord. Sometimes I enjoy titans and sometimes it makes me cringe. I don't think edging them up is inherently bad. I don't think batman should kill people but him being a part of a violent and dark story works.

And when it comes to original super hero ip, I'd prefer if they were violent or *gritty* for lack of a better term.

Invincible, for example, I'm not interested in any adaptation that tones down its violence.

 

[Platy]

I didn't you caught me. Read the comments though and watched the boys and Watchmen which are both r rated and I really enjoyed them.

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The video is not 100% against R rated superheroes.
The video even agrees that The Boys works. And has the right opinion that the violence that made Snyder's Watchmen being R rated is one of the many things Snyder missed the point of the comic.

The video is more about how right now almost all the adaptations of some kid friendly (mostly DC) comics are not being able to be enjoyed by kids and how some movies are doing R rated stuff just for the sake of it without thinking too much about it. Superman should not be R rated. The best version of batman is not R rated. Don't take characters with a huge history of being made for all ages and restrict an important part of that audience.

Titans, the Harley Quinn tv show, the latest direct to DVD Justice League movie, the extended cut of Batman vs Superman, probably the snyder cut ....

If Batman the animated series managed to be the best batman adaptation of all time and still be kid friendly, some of those stuff are missing something

Miracleman shows that adult superheroes can be better than just making batman kill people

The boys works because they are not using red and blue mickey mouse and because it focus on how scary it all is by making the viewer a regular human

 

[HStallion]

Just watched the video; makes some very good points that I've basically already read before, but it's still nice to get the reminder nonetheless.

It's definitely very odd to see DC using many of their characters in strictly R-rated content, especially the likes of Robin and Harley Quinn, both of which were specifically made to appeal to children. Even movies like Joker that I guess "needed" to be for adults, it's just kinda weird that children don't have as many mainstream outlets to explore these characters as they did when we were kids, ya know?

The Mickey Mouse comparison is very apt for Superman. He's essentially the super hero Mickey Mouse, and DC are okay with putting him in flagrantly dark content? Extremely weird.

When I was younger and actually getting introduced to super heroes via films like The Dark Knight, I thought that the character worked better as a dark property. I still maintain that The Dark Knight is an excellent film, but should movies like that be the face of the franchise? I see kids walking around with Batman and Superman shirts, yet all it reminds me of is the grotesque violence seen from Batman v. Superman which, by the way, only has the R-rated cut available on HBO Max.

I'm hoping that DC change their ways a bit for at least a few of their franchises moving forward. I'd love to see a truly optimistic and fun Superman movie on the silver screen.

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If we're talking comic books then it should be restated time and time again that kids are not buying comics, at least Western ones, anywhere to the levels of the past. The people who keep comicbook shops alive are your 20 and 30 year olds, and up, that grew up on comics and have money to spend on them as adults. DC is appealing to the crowd who is still putting down cash on comics, simple as that.

 

[Staf]

Great video! Couldn't agree more with how pisspoor DC have treated the big blue boy scout the last ten years or so.

 

[Nappuccino]

If we're talking comic books then it should be restated time and time again that kids are not buying comics, at least Western ones, anywhere to the levels of the past. The people who keep comicbook shops alive are your 20 and 30 year olds, and up, that grew up on comics and have money to spend on them as adults. DC is appealing to the crowd who is still putting down cash on comics, simple as that.

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Part of the argument of the video is that comics and comic book movies are leaving the younger audiences behind because they've been obsessed with chasing the 20-30year old audience exclusively, and destroying their family-friendly brands in the process.

 

[Bigwombat]

The video is not 100% against R rated superheroes.
The video even agrees that The Boys works. And has the right opinion that the violence that made Snyder's Watchmen being R rated is one of the many things Snyder missed the point of the comic.

The video is more about how right now almost all the adaptations of some kid friendly (mostly DC) comics are not being able to be enjoyed by kids and how some movies are doing R rated stuff just for the sake of it without thinking too much about it. Superman should not be R rated. The best version of batman is not R rated. Don't take characters with a huge history of being made for all ages and restrict an important part of that audience.

Titans, the Harley Quinn tv show, the latest direct to DVD Justice League movie, the extended cut of Batman vs Superman, probably the snyder cut ....

If Batman the animated series managed to be the best batman adaptation of all time and still be kid friendly, some of those stuff are missing something

Miracleman shows that adult superheroes can be better than just making batman kill people

The boys works because they are not using red and blue mickey mouse and because it focus on how scary it all is by making the viewer a regular human

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I meant the watchman TV show. The movie was OK but I also didn't read the comic until afterwards.

I see your point and the videos point but I think there can be space for both kid and adult comics and shows. People who read comics in the 70s,80s,and 90s are obviously adults now and that's where these companies see the money. There's plenty of stuff for kids in shows that haven't been considered stereotypical "superheroes": Thundercats, Steven universe, she ra etc. Plus these shows are WAY more sophisticated than anything I watched growing up.

I'd argue that super heroes don't have nearly the mind share that they had in 80s and 90s with kids. I know this is refuted by marvel box office numbers but there's a greater variety to choose from for kids. Plus kids love stuff they aren't supposed to read or see so the more mature material could be appealing to them too.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

I watched Shazam the other day and I couldn't help but expect his "figuring out his powers" segments to end in the brutal body-horror murder of innocent bystanders, thanks to stuff like The Boys, which I've only really been exposed to via clips, but has nonetheless started to erode my vision of this superhero stuff as generally more innocent fare. I wish we could return to the before-times.

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Shazam is a really fun film that I'm 100% glad doesn't take its wink-wink nod-nod references to the Snyder-verse remotely seriously, much like Deadpool w/ the Xmen.

Imagine if every comic you read from DC or Marvel had the exact same tone, it would be either universally depressing or universally whimsical, and that doesn't work with every character. The Boys works because the violence isn't just there for its own sake, it's supposed to horrify you, and characters like Homelander make you genuinely uncomfortable every time they're on screen.

Edit: Titans is probably the best recent example of edge not being = quality, it isn't even as good as the CW shows that pre-date it, and the titular heroes do very little actual superhero work in between all of their angsty battles with one another and flat out murdering cops who get in their way. I'm kind of terrified of what S3 will look like on HBO.

 

[HStallion]

Part of the argument of the video is that comics and comic book movies are leaving the younger audiences behind because they've been obsessed with chasing the 20-30year old audience exclusively, and destroying their family-friendly brands in the process.

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And they're supplying a real demand that is not there. Kids watch the MCU movies, Teen Titans Go and so on. They are not however going out and buying weekly releases the way older fans do.

 

[Sqrt]

Being gritty for the sake of being gritty is a problem. In BvS, showing Batman doing very violent acts did nothing to improve the movie. On the other side of the coin, censoring the story you want to tell in order to keep ratings down is also a problem. Even as 10 year old kid, I found silly that the TMNT had
bladed melee weapons that went out of their way to not use.

 

[Metallix87]

FWIW, I do think it's worth noting that even young kids are attracted to violent action, and there's a certain appeal for them with regards to PG-13 content, so it likely stands to reason that pushing the envelope further makes the content more attractive in some respects. What I've always felt Moore (and now Patrick) fail to tackle in their arguments is that kids also enjoy brutal violence in their superhero content, and may no longer be interested in the Adam West Batman style.

 

[Pandora012]

The video is more about how right now almost all the adaptations of some kid friendly (mostly DC) comics are not being able to be enjoyed by kids and how some movies are doing R rated stuff just for the sake of it without thinking too much about it. Superman should not be R rated. The best version of batman is not R rated. Don't take characters with a huge history of being made for all ages and restrict an important part of that audience.

Titans, the Harley Quinn tv show, the latest direct to DVD Justice League movie, the extended cut of Batman vs Superman, probably the snyder cut ....

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Is that true? Seems to me they are doing a mix, some "adult" "mixed" and "kid" only content at the same time. I think they have a nice balance of stuff so far.

 

[Heromanz]

They r rating though is like meaningless. It's just like a rating we give movies based off arbitrary things.

 

[BLEEN]

Don't have time for that longass video but most comicbook movies/media would be much better with R-ratings to me anyway. The R-rated ones are always much more enjoyable to me compared to the rest.

I still wish Walking Dead was R-rated lol it would've been much, much better all around. (I know it's not a superhero thing, but close enough.)

 

[Deleted member 9479]

The point is it's just a storytelling device. That's it. Use it how you want. If people are entertained ... there's the point. Honestly feels click-baity.

 

[lorddarkflare]

I'm fine with the boys because, yeah, it at least has a point beyond "haha superman evil"

Really, I'm targeting things like brightburn.

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Brightburn sort of works because it mines the concept for the horror and terror endemic to the idea of 'evil child Superman'

Had that Superman analogue been an adult, yeah it would not have been worth tuning in to.

 

[FUME5]

Soft.

 

[LetalisAmare]

Is that true? Seems to me they are doing a mix, some "adult" "mixed" and "kid" only content at the same time. I think they have a nice balance of stuff so far.

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Agreed. DC have a nice mix right now for people of all ages.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

Patrick makes very good 15 minute videos that are 30+ minutes long. It's become quite obnoxious actually, because when he's not being ludicrously self-indulgent he's super smart and on point.

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Is this a comment on his meta narrative that screams "I am stuck in film analysis, but I really want to make FILM!" thing that carries through his videos?

I mean, it's not just him that does it, most good film analysis on youtube seem to try to jam it in unnecessarily, because I guess most of them can't get their own creations noticed in any other way. I just wish they would do it on seperate videos, and only advertise on film analysis.

 

[Extra Sauce]

While I'm fine with there being R rated hero stuff, I am so over the edgy "what if superman was bad? wouldn't that be interesting" line of thought.

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just when it's finally getting interesting though?

there's been a lot of grimdark bullshit over the years but The Boys actually gets it right. dark and edgy yes, but also thoughtful with a decent amount of pathos.

 

[Charred Knight]

And they're supplying a real demand that is not there. Kids watch the MCU movies, Teen Titans Go and so on. They are not however going out and buying weekly releases the way older fans do.

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and you have to ask yourself why that isnt happening, why are 10s of millions of people watching MCU movies, and then like 50,000 people buy the comics. Kids watch the teen titans cartoon and then dont bother checking out the comics, so clearly they are doing something wrong.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

Patrick makes very good 15 minute videos that are 30+ minutes long. It's become quite obnoxious actually, because when he's not being ludicrously self-indulgent he's super smart and on point.

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Patrick's passion is in filmmaking, not critique, but he kinda got pidgin-holed as a video essayist after his early MCU video was a huge hit and drowned out his original content. So his skit shtick is him trying to compromise.

 

[Nola]

Heres my critique, the American ratings system is a product of an absurdist path dependency rooted in absurdist American puritanical constructs and values and the modern PG-13 rating is the awfulness of it distilled into its final form. And because the vast majority of the industry stems from Hollywood, everything is beholden to its shitty system.

Almost every serious PG-13 film would be better off under a ratings system that wasnt built for the psychological and cultural brain of an early 90's Republican. Where you can kill millions as long as no blood is shown, but too much sex not only gets you an R but pushes you into NC-17.

I would love to actually read someone attempt to articulate to me the science of why a 15 year old can't see The Matrix in theaters but Taken or The Hinger Games is completely fine lol. Why an extra minute of boobs or a penis is incompatible with the 16 year old brain but not the 17 year old one.

Where most kids can turn on The Walking Dead on TV but The Dark Knight has to carefully edit their shots to avoid getting locked out from under 17 year olds.

 

[Digital Dinosaur]

Enjoyed this, and do agree that the imbalance in how so much superhero content is framed and marketed is strange. The point about it being so weird that there's no all-ages Justice League cartoons anymore is a good observation. The DC animated films have gone straight grimdark; it's a shame the style of the original DCAU was abandoned, so much missed potential there.

and you have to ask yourself why that isnt happening, why are 10s of millions of people watching MCU movies, and then like 50,000 people buy the comics. Kids watch the teen titans cartoon and then dont bother checking out the comics, so clearly they are doing something wrong.

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Comics remain hurt by leaving the realm of newsstands and mainstream marketing/retail. I grew up in the era when "HEY KIDS! COMICS!" racks where in every store of every kind. And you know what? I read a ton of comics when I was young thanks to that accessibility. And as I grew older, that access to comics is what led me into places like dedicated comic book shops and the wider medium.

Comics have never recovered from the collectors market exploitation of the 90s. Superhero shit is bigger than ever in the mainstream, but the root medium remains a relatively stagnant and strangled version of itself.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

A lot of people are getting hooked on the whole "R Rating" thing, which he is using as shorthand for "grim dark hyper violence for adults only" comics, tv shows, and movies. He even critiques R in the video itself.

I now never want to watch Titans, I don't know if that was his point, nor if "Fuck Batman" is indicative of the show, but it sure doesn't make me want to watch it. Could cut yourself with that edge.

Things I have never heard my 8 year old nephew be excited about: Any and all DC movie products, even though he loves some Teen Titans Go.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Alan Moore continues to be right.

Very cool that Patrick managed to get Gerry Conway.

 

[Deleted member 1476]

Watched this a couple of days ago and I'm not going to lie, I thought I was going to dislike the video. But after finishing it I found that it actually had a point, and he wasn't saying that every single R Rated superhero media shouldn't exist.

It made me rethink some of my own thoughts about the media as well.

 

[Deleted member 9479]

When this bumped I thought, "you know, I should give this a shot, maybe I was too quick to judge based on the title". Then I got to "no wait I know comics, I'm a life long fan, and some R rated superhero movies are good actually!" And just felt like I'd been click-baited.

 

[CloudWolf]

When this bumped I thought, "you know, I should give this a shot, maybe I was too quick to judge based on the title". Then I got to "no wait I know comics, I'm a life long fan, and some R rated superhero movies are good actually!" And just felt like I'd been click-baited.

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Why? The title doesn't say 'all R-rated superhero movies are bad', he's just wondering what is the point and reason of the current day demand that all of our superhero content should be dark and gritty. I've seen plenty of threads on this very forum trying to make an R-rating some sort of mark of quality, as if the new Batman movie would be total shit if it wasn't R-rated. That's what he is exploring in the video, not that there are R-rated superhero movies at all.

On another note, I've also noticed that the PG-13 rated superhero films have been less and less about fun and more about 'we need to be heavy and serious now, deal with it'. Sure, the MCU can be lots of goofy fun with Thor Ragnarok or Guardians of the Galaxy or even Ant-Man, but all the other ones treat the situations and characters like it's the most serious thing in the world.

Endgame was just people going 'THIS IS REALLY REALLY SERIOUS YOU GUYS' while trying to stop some purple dude with a silly glove. Something like Doom Patrol, which fully knows how silly it is, is so much more enjoyable than Marvel and other DC stuff for me. Gimme more superhero media embraces the silly.

 

[Barrel Cannon]

Yet the best Wolverine story in the last 30 years you don't see his claws except for the last 5 pages of a 198 page story. It isn't about the powers, it is about the character

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As someone who loved Logan, I still agree that the powers don't have to be on full display at all to convey a good story. It would be amazing to have wolverine in a Marvel movie where we don't find out it's him until near the end of the movie through a subtle use of his powers

 

[Garlador]

There's a lot to be said about being fans of things as children and wanting those childish things to grow up alongside you, even though that was never the point of those things or their creators.

We live in an odd world where we have R-rated or "mature" adaptations of Scooby-Doo.

Of Archie.

Of Power Rangers.

And countless, colorful superheroes. We have an R-rated movie of Batman and Superman together. We have an R-rated Wonder Woman movie.

Peter Jackson's third Hobbit movie's extended cut is R-rated, despite being an adaptation of a CHILDREN'S book.

We want to enjoy the things we enjoyed as children, but we're embarrassed that those things are still childish. So we try and age them up. Adapt them to "mature" sensibilities. Sometimes that can actually work, but I think it's important to try and preserve the spirit of those things and what their creator's intended.

I probably never needed to see the plucky sidekicks from Superfriends torn to shreds by their adorable pet.

 

[CloudWolf]

One semi-obscure (not obscure if you're Flemish or Dutch, obscure if not), recent example in comics I would think of is Amoras.

For context: Suske en Wiske is this Flemish children's comic book series that has run since, I dunno, the sixties or something and then a few years ago they released this. An "adult" version of the comic, containing nudity, violence, sexual abuse, drug abuse, death, you name it. I'm not quite sure if anybody asked for this.

I've read online that it's actually good, but I can't help but laugh everytime I see this cover.

 

[Deleted member 9479]

Why? The title doesn't say 'all R-rated superhero movies are bad', he's just wondering what is the point and reason of the current day demand that all of our superhero content should be dark and gritty. I've seen plenty of threads on this very forum trying to make an R-rating some sort of mark of quality, as if the new Batman movie would be total shit if it wasn't R-rated. That's what he is exploring in the video, not that there are R-rated superhero movies at all.

On another note, I've also noticed that the PG-13 rated superhero films have been less and less about fun and more about 'we need to be heavy and serious now, deal with it'. Sure, the MCU can be lots of goofy fun with Thor Ragnarok or Guardians of the Galaxy or even Ant-Man, but all the other ones treat the situations and characters like it's the most serious thing in the world.

Endgame was just people going 'THIS IS REALLY REALLY SERIOUS YOU GUYS' while trying to stop some purple dude with a silly glove. Something like Doom Patrol, which fully knows how silly it is, is so much more enjoyable than Marvel and other DC stuff for me. Gimme more superhero media embraces the silly.

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Because it posits a question that it isn't really asking. When someone says "what is the point of x?" it's a question making a specific point. In this case, that, yes r-rated super hero movies are pointless. It leads the viewer to believing he's going to make a point that he isn't making, that he's taking a position that isn't being taken.

And he knows what he's doing. He didn't front load a statement to clarify becasue he thought people would misinterpret the title, he made the statement because that's how "what's the point of x?" reads about x to most people.

 

[KillLaCam]

Everything is already a superhero movie ,so it's fine

 

[Solid SOAP]

There's a lot to be said about being fans of things as children and wanting those childish things to grow up alongside you, even though that was never the point of those things or their creators.

We live in an odd world where we have R-rated or "mature" adaptations of Scooby-Doo.

Of Archie.

Of Power Rangers.

And countless, colorful superheroes. We have an R-rated movie of Batman and Superman together. We have an R-rated Wonder Woman movie.

Peter Jackson's third Hobbit movie's extended cut is R-rated, despite being an adaptation of a CHILDREN'S book.

We want to enjoy the things we enjoyed as children, but we're embarrassed that those things are still childish. So we try and age them up. Adapt them to "mature" sensibilities. Sometimes that can actually work, but I think it's important to try and preserve the spirit of those things and what their creator's intended.

I probably never needed to see the plucky sidekicks from Superfriends torn to shreds by their adorable pet.

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Wtf is with that dark Archie? Lol

 

[BlackGoku03]

But Brightburn was an original property, despite its well-worn premise. That's not what this video is about.

It's more about stuff like an R-rated Teen Titans tv show, violent bloody murder from Batman, etc. while still selling these characters to kids and thinking they're going to latch onto it the same way. Taking shit meant for kids and falsly trying to age it up while leaving behind the original target audience.

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But I don't see the issue if there are options for kids out there. Teen Titans Go, DC's Superhero Girls, and the SuperPets movie coming out in 2022. Not to mention they still sell comics for kids...

I haven't watched the video and plan to tonight.

 

[Youngfossil]

Yet the best Wolverine story in the last 30 years you don't see his claws except for the last 5 pages of a 198 page story. It isn't about the powers, it is about the character

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It was still pretty violent up until then though

 

[RedSonja]

I enjoyed Brightburn, so perhaps am in the minority. It's all escapism in the end and what you make it for your own entertainment. You can be a bit more creative with 18+ superheroes and super-anti-heroes and not all that 'truth, justice and the American way stuff' that kids have growing up (at least in the 80s).