PANZER DRAGOON: Remake |OT| Same Tower, New Power

Weiss · Mar 28, 2020

Narpas Sword0 said:
This topic is getting really gross. The game is solid. It needs a few tweaks. The devs are extremely receptive and already have firm promises for some of these tweaks in two upcoming patches. It's not like it's unplayable, and it's not like they dumped it on the market and went radio silent.

Keep in mind that the harshest criticisms are coming from people who live and breathe Panzer Dragoon and want it to be the best it can be in this day and age. That they see legitimate downgrades in gameplay or presentation from the original is valid, because Panzer Dragoon is a special kind of game for them.

I'm happy with what I got but the reception certainly isn't "gross" by any means.

Wing Scarab · Mar 28, 2020

Dooble said:
They never needed the source code, rather porting Saturn games just requires a ton of work. Alot of the time, a ground up remake almost makes more sense.

Looking at the credits, it seems the original developers (now at Grounding Inc. and Land Ho. Inc., rather than Sega) were definitely involved. A lower level programmer at the time of PD was a permanent supervisor.

Not that it means much - the original devs worked on Crimson Dragon. And the remake is at least better than that.

Crimson Dragon was such a disappointment. The controls for me was my biggest issue. I could have looked past everything that was wrong with the game but playing the demo made me say nope after trying to deal with those horrid controls.

Narpas Sword0 said:
This topic is getting really gross. The game is solid. It needs a few tweaks. The devs are extremely receptive and already have firm promises for some of these tweaks in two upcoming patches. It's not like it's unplayable, and it's not like they dumped it on the market and went radio silent.

I take it this is your first time playing Panzer Dragoon. Because if you are a diehard fan such as myself, you would understand why the game is pretty bad.

Sumio Mondo · Mar 28, 2020

Dooble said:
The people still at Sega don't have much authority on Panzer because they worked on lower positions in the food ladder at the time.

Sega has alot of respect for the original developers for alot of their games. Sega is well aware of their old IP and which creator is behind it and where they are now. In order to bring out the best out of the Sega Ages games for example, M2 often has to dig in deep, and Sega has the connections to their old creators if they need them.
When this remake was pitched to them, Sega likely directed them to the whereabouts of the original devs in Japan rather than them giving them feedback themselfes.

I wasn't saying otherwise?

Dooble · Mar 28, 2020

Sumio Mondo said:
I wasn't saying otherwise?

yeah not correcting anyone here

OrakioRob · Mar 28, 2020

Weiss said:
I don't know how you approach reviving Panzer Dragoon of all series and not have it be about having lots of passion for the series. It's not like this is some nostalgic blockbuster; it was on the Saturn. It sold like five copies.

Six! I had one! ^_^

Klappdrachen · Mar 28, 2020

Could somebody post a link to the Discord please?

Sumio Mondo · Mar 28, 2020

Panzer Dragoon the original sold pretty well for a Saturn game I think. It was Saga and Orta that bombed, I think. Amusement Vision said at the time of Orta that another game rests on how well Orta does and we never saw another after it so...
And Saga is renowned for its poor sales.

Virtua Sanus · Mar 28, 2020

Alienhated said:
I don't know, i don't think that "at least it exists and it kinda works" should be considered good enough for Shenmue.
Also i loved Sonic Mania, but the only entirely new game so far has been Monster Boy, and while it turned out pretty good on its own (in its first half at least) it felt like it lacked the soul of the original games to me.
Same thing for SOR4, it's probably going to be good as well, but being decent and having a licensed ip it's not good enough to me if the artstyle does not respect the series at all and not even the
original composers (usually the facade-keeping factor in these kind of operations) are actually on board. Meanwhile Ancient is still around doing nothing.
I mean, just because Ninja Theory was a good developer and DmC eventually turned out worthwile but subpar-ish it doesn't mean they should've made a new Devil May Cry game.

I know we're basically in "better than nothing" territory but Panzer Dragoon deserved more than a sub-par remake that twisted its original artstyle for dubious commercial reasons and straight up botched the freaking gameplay. But who cares, it has shiny new graphics and they'll eventually nail the controls within the next four or five patches, so its all good i guess?
It feels like Sega it's starting to try the same thing they did with their 2d properties with the 3d ones, and i don't think this is going to turn out a good idea.
I hope we're not going to end up with outsourced western-made JSR games or stuff like that, but i think there's a serious risk at this point.

Anyway, i'm not insulting anyone, i'm just saying that no-name indie studios might not be exactly up to the task of handling historical legendary series.
The D3t guys might be the most hardcore developers in the world but they still managed to come up with a disastrously input-lag and stutter ridden Mega Drive Collection, for example.

Shenmue I & II is much more than 'just okay'. I consider the Xbox One, PlayStation 4 and PC versions of them the absolute best ways to experience those games now, especially when you consider the extra language and controller options. I would even go as far to say that they are handled better than almost all ports of late 90s/early 00s titles out there. Even companies like Nintendo release trash like those practically defective Wii U Virtual Console ports of Nintendo 64 titles. The only remasters that easily surpass it are Nightdive's releases.

I am absolutely with you on Panzer Dragoon though, I feel like this should've been an original side game and not a remake. In a case like that just about everyone here would appreciate the effort far more than what we ultimately got. I think you are being too hasty in saying SEGA licencing out their IP was a mistake when this is genuinely the first time we have something with a majorly mixed reception.

And you mentioning DmC is a little funny because it is the only Devil May Cry game I liked much (still not enough to finish it, but hey!). Opinions will always differ of course, but even if many situations with titles like Monster Boy or Streets of Rage 4 are not ideal I think their level of respect for the brands are apparent (was not the case with DmC).

Aether · Mar 28, 2020

rawhide said:
A lot of the things people are asking them to fix--the finicky reticule, the camera, the slow button response, the annoying flapping, the awful soun ddesign, etc--are things that were complained about at length whenever they showed the game off and yet they persisted through every single build and into the final product, so either they can't adequately address those issues or they simply don't consider them issues worth addressing (or they need tens of thousands of complaints to hammer the issue home, as if that's any better).

Thats disheartening. It really just sounds like "to low budget to rework stuff, everything that works, styes, move on to the next thing."

Dooble said:
Looking at the credits, it seems the original developers (now at Grounding Inc. and Land Ho. Inc., rather than Sega) were definitely involved. A lower level programmer at the time of PD was a permanent supervisor.

Yeah, having the original developer on there and trying tocreate a good game are different things. also: in what capacity someone was working is not inferable from the credits, Thats somewhat of a problem with credits on projects: they reflect the type of involvment, not the amount.

Narpas Sword0 said:
This topic is getting really gross. The game is solid. It needs a few tweaks. The devs are extremely receptive and already have firm promises for some of these tweaks in two upcoming patches. It's not like it's unplayable, and it's not like they dumped it on the market and went radio silent.

Nothing gross here, we are talking about a 20$ priced game, for a niche audience, that has flaws that were talked about months ago, and its a rather short game.
Nobody said it is a desaster, just that its a flawed remake (stuff like the saturated warm colors were talked about afters the initial trailer), and that it could be inproved with a view changes mades an an update. none of these changes are fundamental, almost all are incremental.

If you think "yeah, but you got something, better than nothing, and the developer worked hard"... well then it should be fry by that logic, "somebody played it, better than nobody played it". Hyperbole, i know. Its also condescending to the developer, not to treat it as a full on game release.

Narpas Sword0 · Mar 28, 2020

Wing Scarab said:
Crimson Dragon was such a disappointment. The controls for me was my biggest issue. I could have looked past everything that was wrong with the game but playing the demo made me say nope after trying to deal with those horrid controls.

I take it this is your first time playing Panzer Dragoon. Because if you are a diehard fan such as myself, you would understand why the game is pretty bad.

I have a Saturn and panzer dragoon and zwei. Not like I'm required to in order to comment. Nice job proving this topic isn't toxic as hell lol

Spine Crawler · Mar 28, 2020

Weiss said:
Keep in mind that the harshest criticisms are coming from people who live and breathe Panzer Dragoon and want it to be the best it can be in this day and age. That they see legitimate downgrades in gameplay or presentation from the original is valid, because Panzer Dragoon is a special kind of game for them.

I'm happy with what I got but the reception certainly isn't "gross" by any means.

yeah im a bit bamboozled at the reaction. as a starfox semi-fan I would love a remake with this quality (cough 3DS cough zero)

Wing Scarab · Mar 28, 2020

Narpas Sword0 said:
I have a Saturn and panzer dragoon and zwei. Not like I'm required to in order to comment. Nice job proving this topic isn't toxic as hell lol

Just because you own something doesn't make you a fan. And people giving their opinions now is considered making a topic toxic? Okay buddy.

Tolby · Mar 28, 2020

Perhaps the technical side will improve once it launches on other platforms.

Even if this remake is simply okay instead of great or amazing I'm grateful that the franchise got a second chance.

fiendcode · Mar 28, 2020

Shenmue I&II was buggy mess that barely held together. This remake is far from perfect but you could at least play it to completion day one without crashing, that already puts it above the Shenmue remasters imo or d3t's other iffy recent remasters like MD/Genesis Classics or Burnout Paradise Remastered.

I hope Megapixel delivers on the necessary gameplay/interface fixes (target cursor accuracy/depth, control/cam lag, dragon animation) in future patches. Good gyro implementation and the remade soundtrack options could be a boon too but they do need to cover the fundamentals first imo. And fix the end credits audio, that loop/cutoff is real amateur hour.

Visually I thought everything was handled pretty well except Episode 1, which is a shame as it's probably the most iconic PD level in the entire series. I thought the desert, cave and forest redesigned Eps were quite good though.

Windrunner · Mar 28, 2020

rawhide said:
A lot of the things people are asking them to fix--the finicky reticule, the camera, the slow button response, the annoying flapping, the awful soun ddesign, etc--are things that were complained about at length whenever they showed the game off and yet they persisted through every single build and into the final product, so either they can't adequately address those issues or they simply don't consider them issues worth addressing (or they need tens of thousands of complaints to hammer the issue home, as if that's any better).

That's the most concerning part of all this: they couldn't get the basics right and the things they did change are awful. The latency, the bobbing dragon, the unsatisfying lock-on and blaster sound effects and the ridiculously over-saturated colours are all deal breakers.

Meanwhile there's this slavish devotion to the original here in terms of the level progression and core gameplay but a top tier developer would have made a proper remake and added things like multiple routes, the reticle from Zwei, different enemy layouts, additional/different boss phases, berserk meter, evolutions and maybe even the speed up and down from Orta to make a truly modern version of the original with the gameplay additions from its sequels.

When you stick too closely to the original you're unlikely to please purists while newcomers are going to be stuck wondering what the fuss was about. To me it's all demonstrative of both a lack of ambition and a lack of appreciation for the original material.

Aether · Mar 28, 2020

Windrunner said:
That's the most concerning part of all this: they couldn't get the basics right and the things they did change are awful. The latency, the bobbing dragon, the unsatisfying lock-on and blaster sound effects and the ridiculously over-saturated colours are all deal breakers.

Meanwhile there's this slavish devotion to the original here in terms of the level progression and core gameplay but a top tier developer would have made a proper remake and added things like multiple routes, the reticle from Zwei, different enemy layouts, additional/different boss phases, berserk meter, evolutions and maybe even the speed up and down from Orta to make a truly modern version of the original with the gameplay additions from its sequels.

When you stick too closely to the original you're unlikely to please purists while newcomers are going to be stuck wondering what the fuss was about. To me it's all demonstrative of both a lack of ambition and a lack of appreciation for the original material.

Psst, youre being gross/toxic! ;)

No, but honestly, im with you on your last paragraph.

Deleted member 2317 · Mar 28, 2020

Krejlooc said:
The PS2 remake is much more faithful to the original

Had no idea this even existed until today, thank you Krejlooc!

Hutchie · Mar 28, 2020

Any extra content in this?

Deleted member 925 · Mar 28, 2020

Narpas Sword0 said:
This topic is getting really gross. The game is solid. It needs a few tweaks. The devs are extremely receptive and already have firm promises for some of these tweaks in two upcoming patches. It's not like it's unplayable, and it's not like they dumped it on the market and went radio silent.

Sadly I agree, people can be overly negative. I'm enjoying the game and I'm a long time Panzer Dragoon fan since the very first game. It's not perfect but I'm happy with what they've given us and hope it can improve.

squeakywheel · Mar 28, 2020

I was so ready to purchase the Limited Run games edition until I read through this thread. Now I'll wait for the promised patches and maybe buy it on sale digitally then if that day ever comes. I loved PD on the Saturn, especially Zwei.

Karlinel · Mar 28, 2020

I'm sooo on the fence! Even tho I joined in on Saga, the Zwei demo I played more than some full fledged games...I think I'll buy it...when I get to buy a microSD (which might be hard during lockdown).

Caz · Mar 28, 2020

Hutchie said:
Any extra content in this?

What you see is what you get; unless something is hidden behind beating the game on hard mode, there's nothing new here aside from some concept art (for the remake, not concept art from the original, as far as I can tell) that appears when you get to the credits. I'd say there's some replay value in trying to improve your hit rate but the more sluggish controls and finicky target reticle make it hard to recommend in its current state.

Skulldead · Mar 28, 2020

Caz said:
What you see is what you get; unless something is hidden behind beating the game on hard mode, there's nothing new here aside from some concept art (for the remake, not concept art from the original, as far as I can tell) that appears when you get to the credits. I'd say there's some replay value in trying to improve your hit rate but the more sluggish controls and finicky target reticle make it hard to recommend in its current state.

This is the remake i was expecting.... it feel super rushed

Hutchie · Mar 28, 2020

I thought as the developers were updating the game for a 'modern audience' they wouldve added bonus content especially given the price. Oh well, hoping that they knock zwei out of the park because if that is off in anyway ill be so disappointed.

also no news of an orta port? I really need that!

Caz · Mar 28, 2020

Skulldead said:
This is the remake i was expecting.... it feel super rushed

It truly captures the spirit of the SEGA Saturn!

MikeE21286 · Mar 28, 2020

squeakywheel said:
I was so ready to purchase the Limited Run games edition until I read through this thread. Now I'll wait for the promised patches and maybe buy it on sale digitally then if that day ever comes. I loved PD on the Saturn, especially Zwei.

I literally am in the same place. Was ready to buy the limited edition with the Saturn case and then cooled down on that.

fiendcode · Mar 28, 2020

Caz said:
What you see is what you get; unless something is hidden behind beating the game on hard mode, there's nothing new here aside from some concept art (for the remake, not concept art from the original, as far as I can tell) that appears when you get to the credits. I'd say there's some replay value in trying to improve your hit rate but the more sluggish controls and finicky target reticle make it hard to recommend in its current state.

There's also some extra options (Shadow Mode) locked behind beating it on Hard. Includes options like level select, easy bosses, god mode, rapid fire, riderless, speed up, etc.

night814 · Mar 28, 2020

I was pretty excited for this as someone who has only really dabbled in the series but I think I'll wait for a sale or for more updates to add gyro and the like.

Kapryov · Mar 28, 2020

OK I've got it and have played a couple of levels. It's more-or-less Panzer Dragoon, with a few issues here and there, but still PD.
I really hate the reticle though. With how detailed everything is, I actually can't see the middle of the reticle a lot of the time, making it hard to accurately paint targets.

fiendcode said:
There's also some extra options (Shadow Mode) locked behind beating it on Hard. Includes options like level select, easy bosses, god mode, rapid fire, riderless, speed up, etc.

Awesome.
Earning the Pandora's Box in Zwei legitimately was one of my proud moments back then. I hope I can actually manage this.

Caz · Mar 28, 2020

fiendcode said:
There's also some extra options (Shadow Mode) locked behind beating it on Hard. Includes options like level select, easy bosses, god mode, rapid fire, riderless, speed up, etc.

Thank you for the correction, it appears I was mistaken.

C.Tsubasa · Mar 28, 2020

Loved the original hated the remake to the fullest.

The shooting is just bad, trying to avoid getting hit is almost impossible, the camera controls are very very bad, this remake needs alot of fixing.

Bradford · Mar 28, 2020

Wing Scarab said:
Crimson Dragon was such a disappointment. The controls for me was my biggest issue. I could have looked past everything that was wrong with the game but playing the demo made me say nope after trying to deal with those horrid controls.

I take it this is your first time playing Panzer Dragoon. Because if you are a diehard fan such as myself, you would understand why the game is pretty bad.

I am an incredible die hard fan of Panzer Dragoon and I thought this remake was perfectly serviceable, with a few minor faults. Not sure what this gatekeeping is about. It's not as good as the original, but it's a far cry from something akin to the Silent Hill HD collection, for example. If this gets more people into PD, good.

Deleted member 925 · Mar 28, 2020

Wing Scarab said:
Crimson Dragon was such a disappointment. The controls for me was my biggest issue. I could have looked past everything that was wrong with the game but playing the demo made me say nope after trying to deal with those horrid controls.

I take it this is your first time playing Panzer Dragoon. Because if you are a diehard fan such as myself, you would understand why the game is pretty bad.

I'm a long time fan, got a Saturn in my teens just for Panzer Dragoon... also an Xbox just for Orta. I didn't care for Crimson Dragon either but I don't think this remake is "pretty bad", so you shouldn't just label someone a casual newcomer just because they're enjoying the remake.

TGR Onix · Mar 28, 2020

Weiss said:
We haven't heard anything about Zwei's development have we?

Just that it's in pre production as of a few months ago.

Weiss · Mar 28, 2020

TGR Onix said:
Just that it's in pre production as of a few months ago.

That's kind of encouraging.

Deleted member 19742 · Mar 28, 2020

Wing Scarab said:
Just because you own something doesn't make you a fan. And people giving their opinions now is considered making a topic toxic? Okay buddy.

Giving an opinion and giving an overly bitter opinion while being rude to people who liked the game are different things.

Weiss · Mar 28, 2020

Maximilian Dood put up a review today.

While I did fully enjoy the game I hope patches roll out to address all the issues so that everyone gets the Panzer Dragoon reimagining they wanted.

Wing Scarab · Mar 28, 2020

kitchenmotors said:
I'm a long time fan, got a Saturn in my teens just for Panzer Dragoon... also an Xbox just for Orta. I didn't care for Crimson Dragon either but I don't think this remake is "pretty bad", so you shouldn't just label someone a casual newcomer just because they're enjoying the remake.

And the guy shouldn't just come in and start labeling people being toxic just because they aren't enjoying the game and giving their opinions.

ArcaneSylph said:
Giving an opinion and giving an overly bitter opinion while being rude to people who liked the game are different things.

And who exactly was I being rude to?

PspLikeANut · Mar 28, 2020

First time playing this series. Pretty disappointing.....Plays like a basic rail shooter. Nothing to be wowed about. something feels off though... like dodging enemies and projectiles seems so hard. Also the hit boxes are not really good imo.

The game couldn't be this bad back then? Seems like it has aged poorly

rawhide · Mar 28, 2020

PspLikeANut said:
First time playing this series. Pretty disappointing.....Plays like a basic rail shooter. Nothing to be wowed about. something feels off though... like dodging enemies and projectiles seems so hard. Also the hit boxes are not really good imo.

The game couldn't be this bad back then? Seems like it has aged poorly

OG Panzer Dragoon was not a mechanically complex game and this version arguably plays worse than the already simple original.

The sequels, Zwei and Orta, are more mechanically engaging.

No Depth · Mar 28, 2020

PspLikeANut said:
First time playing this series. Pretty disappointing.....Plays like a basic rail shooter. Nothing to be wowed about. something feels off though... like dodging enemies and projectiles seems so hard. Also the hit boxes are not really good imo.

The game couldn't be this bad back then? Seems like it has aged poorly

Many of the gameplay aspects are not translated well at all from the original Saturn game. It's somewhat baffling really to those of us that did own and play it back then. Ultimately it is a simple game that mostly involves choosing to rapid fire or paint targets while being mindful of the 360 perspective and dodging. It's just that the reticle doesn't operate the same way here, painting targets is a much greater struggle than before, the camera panning isn't snappy, and the dragon is bounding around making everything a bit more tricky to track.

The sequel(Zwei) is far, FAR more interesting as a game. Far better realized use of the perspective shifting, more intricate level layouts, some alternate branching paths, and even dragon morphing with unique properties and changes to your playstyle. Hopefully they fix this up a bit and the eventual sequel doesn't share similar issues.

Weiss · Mar 28, 2020

I kinda get the feeling that PD and Zwei are separate releases due to budgetary reasons. They know PD diehards will buy what they put out in the hopes of getting the later releases, but casual players would look at two rail shooters for say $50 and snub their noses like they are now at PD's release.

Plus PD is the most basic of the titles and a wholly faithful remake of that with no extra bells and whistles would probably be not entirely well received in this day and age of $15 indie games that last dozens of hours.

Everything I've said probably sounds really negative but let me reiterate that I don't think you come at remaking Panzer Dragoon without some serious passion for the series. It's not Crash Bandicoot where nostalgia will sell it alone, these are cult games at best and come with the big asterisk of "when are you going to remake Saga?" and that's nothing to sneeze at. I genuinely believe the people making these games are working their butts off to create something faithful to Panzer Dragoon as a series while trying to pull in new fans and as someone who's desperately wanted to play the middle titles in the series I hope they succeed.

mute · Mar 28, 2020

Am I just adjusting to it more or does target painting work a little better when the camera is zoomed in on the dragon?

Going after hard mode now for the cheats.

Freshmaker · Mar 28, 2020

Sumio Mondo said:
Panzer Dragoon the original sold pretty well for a Saturn game I think. It was Saga and Orta that bombed, I think. Amusement Vision said at the time of Orta that another game rests on how well Orta does and we never saw another after it so...
And Saga is renowned for its poor sales.

Not sure how Saga could have sold well with a run of 14,00 copies for the US.

Tailzo · Mar 29, 2020

The history of Sega; great games and poor sales :(

anyway I still haven't played Orta.But Ihope to buy the new xbox and play it there.

Deleted member 43657 · Mar 29, 2020

I liked it? I played the original once at a demo kiosk at a Toys R Us back in the 90s. Always wanted to play through this game as the demo left me enthralled.

I played through the whole game the day it was released and I thought it was pretty great. If it feels ancient, it's because it is. Took a lot to get used to the controls, but that's expected with older games. Shenmue on PS4 is just as wonky at first, but you get used to it.

I'm sincerely hoping/praying for a Panzer Dragoon Saga remake.

Also, I'm sure they'll patch some of the more rough edges (of which, honestly, I didn't really notice until I saw the internet screaming about it).

So I guess, for newcomers, the game is pretty great. It's short (about 2 hours), but that's expected of an arcade style rail shooter. If it's too pricey, wait for a sale I guess. I really enjoyed it!

Tailzo · Mar 29, 2020

yuhr33 said:
I liked it? I played the original once at a demo kiosk at a Toys R Us back in the 90s. Always wanted to play through this game as the demo left me enthralled.

I played through the whole game the day it was released and I thought it was pretty great. If it feels ancient, it's because it is. Took a lot to get used to the controls, but that's expected with older games. Shenmue on PS4 is just as wonky at first, but you get used to it.

I'm sincerely hoping/praying for a Panzer Dragoon Saga remake.

Also, I'm sure they'll patch some of the more rough edges (of which, honestly, I didn't really notice until I saw the internet screaming about it).

So I guess, for newcomers, the game is pretty great. It's short (about 2 hours), but that's expected of an arcade style rail shooter. If it's too pricey, wait for a sale I guess. I really enjoyed it!

Remaking Saga would be such a big task. I don't think it will happen, but I do hope it will.

Klappdrachen · Mar 29, 2020

The developers have said on Twitter that they're currently working on a patch to fix the control issues.

mudai · Mar 29, 2020

fiendcode said:
There's also some extra options (Shadow Mode) locked behind beating it on Hard. Includes options like level select, easy bosses, god mode, rapid fire, riderless, speed up, etc.

Nice, I wanted to beat it on Hard again anyway, but this gives me some extra motivation.

mausterhunter · Mar 29, 2020

Klappdrachen said:
The developers have said on Twitter that they're currently working on a patch to fix the control issues.

Pandora be praised. This is my biggest problem with it. I'll feel better about Zwei coming down the line if they can get the controls proper.

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