• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,299
Houston, TX
Balance-wise, the game is in a great place now. But damn was it a long ride to get here.

I never played Overwatch, but from the outside looking in, I thought Mercy seemed like the character I'd want to play if I ever got the urge to try it.

Then Blizzard completely overhauled her to the point of unrecognizability. Which is the weirdest thing to me. There have been cases with characters like Symmetra that were just completely overhauled to play differently instead of just introducing new characters with the new play styles and abilities. In fighting game terms, it felt like they were taking the approach of completely overhauling Chun-Li in Street Fighter to play like Karin instead of just adding Karin to the game.
The thing with both of them is that Resurrection was causing major problems & going against their mindset for Mercy's intended play style, while Symmetra was barely ever used at any level of play.
 

dr.rocktopus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
7,250
It did. I encourage anyone to try to play the Ranked with no role lock card and please come back to me and tell me it's a good experience. I'll wait lol.

Open queue comp was described to me as "purple quickplay" when I first dabbled in it last season and it's so fucking right. I Rein-ed the whole way through and I got placed nearly a rank and a half higher than my role queue rank. All the downsides of old OW with the powered down state of current character balancing is a mess.
 

Cruxist

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,814
I miss Hanzo's stupid scatter arrow.

I like my arcade-y shooter to have randomness and overpowered nonsense in it. I understand balancing for competitive play, but I'm a casual, and I like silly casual nonsense.
 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,467
Personally I think it's because the game doesn't have a tonne of depth to its mechanics, so it's hard to diversify yourself mechanically. The game over emphasises the Rock Paper Scissors style design where too many heroes just beat x hero, because of their kit, because of their character.

So with a low mechanical skill ceiling, it leaves very little room for the players themselves to have their individual characteristics influence how the game is played, and instead, it comes down to which characters are picked, and the overall team strategy that's employed.

Paladins and typical mobas have less of these balance issues because while they have overpowered characters and balance issues, they have tremendous skill ceilings which means that the meta is perpetually shifting and that the characters you pick are not the be and end all of a match. In games like Smite, balance issues exist but these are much more malleable over time, without influence of the developers. You see people finding out new and creative ways to play different characters because of how diverse the game is, and how high its skill ceiling can be, which tends to prevent scenarios where everyone is playing the same set of characters.

Essentially, I'm saying that it's not about the game being unbalanced, that's not the issue, these games are inherently unbalanced because of their diverse roster. However, the issue in Overwatch is that the puzzle pieces here are too simplistic that players figure out that meta too quickly, and the skill ceilings among most of the cast too small to allow that meta to fluctuate dependent on player ability. As such the problem here is that you get these waves of stagnation, as players figure out the meta, play it to death, and then hate the game.

The issue isn't the character specific changes that Blizzard make, it's instead at the heart of Overwatch's design.
 
Last edited:

IsThatHP

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,033
I'd say after Orisa the roster started getting redundant or out of hand. Ana, Sombra, Doomfist and Orisa all filled in good utility that was lacking in the game up to that point. After that, it was just adding more to the mix with no big pay off.
 

Kain

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
7,599
Well yeah 4 Torbjorn + Rein + Healer was the most bullshit thing on release. 6 Winston team was fun though.
 

Stoney Mason

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,919
Since someone else mentioned it, I will also say that I think Paladins is more fun. It's janky as fuck and its got monetization up the ass but as a game I find it more enjoyable to play. I also like how the customization cards distinguish the characters and allow a diverse play style for individual characters.
 
Oct 25, 2017
727
I've been enjoying the launch, the postpatches and reworks, well besides when the 222 happened, I would say that was the bad one. Thankfully they've even made a competitive no limit mode and open queue so I'm all good except when it was only 222
 

Linkeds2

Member
Nov 15, 2017
453
North Bay, CA
Well yeah 4 Torbjorn + Rein + Healer was the most bullshit thing on release. 6 Winston team was fun though.
I remember this on season 1 competitive lmao. Glad they patched that out it was so broken.

I like the recent soldier rework with his accuracy. I agree brig is kinda worthless now after her nerf. The worse character is solves to me. She hacks too quickly
 

Stoney Mason

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,919
To be fair I should give Overwatch a try with the role queue implemented. That was by far my largest issue with the game. It really was a roll of the dice before when I played whether people were going to be pick sensible stuff. I legit would argue half of the games were lost the moment people picked their characters as so many people would pick selfishly or troll with that stuff.
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
People trying to pretend she wasn't beyond gamebreaking and make fun of people who complained about that are kinda pathetic themselves though.
nah i'm pretty sure the endless cacophony of whining about brigitte was worse. the game had problems before her that pros either ignored or hand-waved away because reasons
 

HiLife

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
39,623
Back at launch, OG Mercy rez / 6 stacking random hero's was the funnest time in comp. It was also the most toxic. I still played it through the years but I could tell my interest started waning with the constant changes.
 
Nov 1, 2017
1,380
Open Queue was welcome but I feel people have been so trained by the 2-2-2 meta because that's how the comps often look even in open queue. I'm not quite sure what the best solution is going forward because there are so many different wants from so many different people.

She was, but the character has been changed upwards of 32 times at this point.
And from what I hear, the changes have nerfed her into useless territory lol
 

Skel1ingt0n

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,723
I've said it since Day One, and 500 hours later my core frustration can be boiled down to a single statement:

Blizzard's tendency to balance by merging characters and making them less fun, rather than buffing other characters and make them more fun, is frustrating as hell and makes the game less and less enjoyable over time.

***
I once had a job for a few years that kept making changes to our account lists, hours, management, teams, PTO, etc. and one day I paused and thought to myself, "every single time my employer changes something, my job gets worse. Never better." And a few months later I quit.

somehow feels very similar with OW. 2-2-2 was the nail in the coffin. 500 hours since launch and I basically quit cold Turkey a week after that change.

2-2-2 flies in the face of everything OW was once advertised to be and the hundreds of hours I had played beforehand.
 

Mcfrank

Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,201
I like 2-2-2 personally. It sucks for dps mains i am sure to wait for so long, but it Is worth it for them to be able to design around that.
 

Hyun Sai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,562
Also everyone forgets that Blizzard initially launched with the big brain design philosophy that there should be no limits to your team composition. Meaning you can have multiple mercy's, 4 tracers etc.

Launch Overwatch was fuckin TERRIBLE lol
Thank you. They took so much time to fix this nonsense I had already left. That was one of the dumbest thing I saw in a "competitive" game by large.
 

Stoney Mason

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,919
2-2-2 flies in the face of everything OW was once advertised to be and the hundreds of hours I had played beforehand.

I think it goes both ways and the community is divided so its hard to say. Them not implementing 2-2-2 for so long stopped me personally from playing the game as it just felt like a goddamn mess to me without some structure.
 

MCD

Honest Work
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,759
People trying to pretend she wasn't beyond gamebreaking and make fun of people who complained about that are kinda pathetic themselves though.

Blizzard's weren't quick to balance her (little bit nerfs here and there) and most of these nerfs were slow to transition to OWL (they use an old patch system).

Plus, Blizzard inability to balance goats (people didn't care that Brig got nerfed, they swapped her for Bap or Ana etc because Lucio is actually the core of Goats with AOE heals and speed) and introducing 2-2-2 as a band aid was too late. Same thing happened when moth Meta (Mercy being a must pick) for like half a year.

Tl;dr it's not the players fault. It's on Blizzard to be swift and fix things up fast and not after months.
 

Mobu

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
5,932
Every single new 2CP map they released had the same issues everyone had been complaining since 2016. Its like they were trying to spite the comminity

Respect to everyone who ate a ban leaving at the start of a Paris/Horizon match

And while not gameplay related, i fell off the game and community once they moved OWL to youtube
 

Alucrid

Chicken Photographer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,414
Also everyone forgets that Blizzard initially launched with the big brain design philosophy that there should be no limits to your team composition. Meaning you can have multiple mercy's, 4 tracers etc.

Launch Overwatch was fuckin TERRIBLE lol


what's wrong with double tracer, double winston, double lucio?
 

ThreepQuest64

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
5,735
Germany
Too much back and forth and lack of what Blizzard actually wants to achieve, the lack of directing and abysmal queue times and only being able to play as DPS when playing with my friends (due ELO differences) made me drop the game and probably for good.

I never played beyond low Platinum, so I was an average Gold player and it felt like lots of changes and balancing was catering the top 1% and professional players to make the game and esports-wise more watchable (where the real money's at). So many changes felt unnecessary on lower levels where the majority of players are.
 

Crowh

Member
Nov 20, 2017
333
nah i'm pretty sure the endless cacophony of whining about brigitte was worse. the game had problems before her that pros either ignored or hand-waved away because reasons
This is true 100% tho, if Genji or Tracer are "Broken" pros are like "Nothing wrong here :)" but if Brig or Sombra are good they are like "Nerf that shit now Blizz!!!111!!" its really damn annoying if you play those heroes...
 

danmaku

Member
Nov 5, 2017
3,232
I think the litmus test for your game's balance is looking at characters/teams composition in high level tournaments. If your fighting game has 8 different characters in top 8, it's probably balanced. If most characters get picked or banned in your MOBA, it's probably balanced. A really crazy example was that DOTA2 tournament in which Virtus Pro picked 5 different heroes in every game and won. They never used the same character twice (except in the very last game because they ran out of characters lol). Talk about balance!

I never followed Overwatch, but I remember (in the early days of the OWL) people complaining that pro teams were picking the same exact characters in every game. That's a sign of terrible balance.
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
This is true 100% tho, if Genji or Tracer are "Broken" pros are like "Nothing wrong here :)" but if Brig or Sombra are good they are like "Nerf that shit now Blizz!!!111!!" its really damn annoying if you play those heroes...
character pro likes playing gets a buff: wow totally justified! thanks blizzard
character that is a counterpick to a pro's favorite: ahhh broken, op, blizzard save me, i'll leave the game if you don't. overwatch is dying!

it's so transparent lol
 

Alucrid

Chicken Photographer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,414
character pro likes playing gets a buff: wow totally justified! thanks blizzard
character that is a counterpick to a pro's favorite: ahhh broken, op, blizzard save me, i'll leave the game if you don't. overwatch is dying!

it's so transparent lol

you say that as if it isn't almost the entire overwatch community that reacts the same way
 

Lazlow

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,141
The biggest, biggest issue the game has with balance is the fact that in the mid-low ranks, where the majority play, people do not want to play as a team. You can balance till the cows come home but if players refuse to play the actual game infront of them then its for nothing. It is one of the most rock/paper/scissor team games there are but the 'community' don't play that way or care too.
 

SDBurton

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,390
nah i'm pretty sure the endless cacophony of whining about brigitte was worse. the game had problems before her that pros either ignored or hand-waved away because reasons

Yep. I mean, it was so bad people were harassing Brig's VA on Twitter as if it was her fault.

And from what I hear, the changes have nerfed her into useless territory lol

The devs' constant catering to the DPS crowd will never not be funny.

They changed her recently to add 25 HP back, and took it away again a few weeks later.

Of course they did. Oh Blizz LOL
 

Semfry

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,952
I still haven't gone back to competitive after the torture of GOATS, but I think the balance and general approach to the game has got a lot better over the last year or so, with the semi-regular updates, experimental mode (which both allows for more ambitious balancing ideas while also quickly killing the bad ones) and them finally seeming to be willing to actually nerf broken things rather than powercreeping everything else.

This is true 100% tho, if Genji or Tracer are "Broken" pros are like "Nothing wrong here :)" but if Brig or Sombra are good they are like "Nerf that shit now Blizz!!!111!!" its really damn annoying if you play those heroes...

Literally not even that long ago Genji got a major buff and both low and high level players thought it was way too much and was nerfed fast (and given the tournament that coincided with that patch had Genji nearly every game it seems justified). I even agree that Tracer has basically always been OP as fuck (outside of when Brig was so ridiculously broken she deleted her from the game) and blatantly seems to get a degree of favourable treatment as the designated "main" character.

They changed her recently to add 25 HP back, and took it away again a few weeks later.

She had 25HP converted to armour instead, which is actually a good middle ground.

They did Roadhog super dirty with nerfing his chain kill combos. Lost a lot of interest in playing after that.

Hog has actually finally got some of his old killing power back. He's still not AS strong but his combo is basically a guaranteed one shot on any non-tank now.
 
Last edited:

Fiddle

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,627
I played probably 300 hours around the first 6-12 months of the game and looking back I feel like it is just inheriantly extremely flawed as a concept and video game. So many issues and problems that the devs, as you point out, struggle to fix and every fix or new character fucks it all up again. I find it extremely unfun now sadly.
 

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,036
The thing that bothered me about role queue, and STILL bothers me about role queue is the fact that they actually restrict specific heroes to each role. What I mean by that is that the roles are "DPS", "Tank", and "Support", but some of these characters could fit in roles other than the role they're assigned to.

Why is Symmetra under "DPS"? She could easily be classified as support, but why isn't she? Just because she doesn't have a heal? The Shield doesn't count?

Why is Roadhog under "Tank"? He doesn't play like any of the rest of the tanks in the game, and could easily be argued under "DPS" because his entire game is picking people off.

Why could Zarya not be considered "Support" as well with her shield and ultimate?

The closest thing I could compare this with is Dota 2, which has a Ranked Role queue. However, roles are NOT restricted to certain heroes. This means people can pick some hero that there's no way in hell will be their assigned role, and everyone can report that person and they usually get punished for it, but most of the time people stick to their roles. As the metagame shifts, some heroes can be played in different roles than they were played before. Naga Siren has had patches where she's played as a mid, carry, and support. Earth Spirit was originally played as a mid, then offlane, then support. Monkey King was played as support in pro games when he was released. In TI9 Io (wisp) was played as a carry! Things like that, especially carry Io, would have never happened under a hero-restricted role queue, because it allows people to be creative with the game.
 

Tbm24

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,240
Role Queue saved this game full stop. I have easy 1000+ hours in the game across 3 accounts and 2 platforms. The mess that the game was prior to forcing people to play their damn role is something I hope to never ever see again. I'm glad people who like that mess have that option, but I'm good. I think Overwatch has been in the best place it's ever been in recent months. Sure there's still some stupid stuff and new soldier is absurdly fun, but balance wise the game feels good. I don't play at a pro level so w/e that's like doesn't interest me anymore.

I will say, one constant I hear from personalities and professionals who do play Overwatch is they constantly bitch about characters they feel don't take "skill" to play. This isn't the first game I've heard this said but it never stops making me eyes roll so far back into my head.
 

QisTopTier

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,716
nah i'm pretty sure the endless cacophony of whining about brigitte was worse. the game had problems before her that pros either ignored or hand-waved away because reasons
She's what tipped it over. I question how much you actually payed attention to how things played out post release but goats teams were basically the go to and the game became stale as fuck
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,329
Toronto, Canada
The biggest, biggest issue the game has with balance is the fact that in the mid-low ranks, where the majority play, people do not want to play as a team. You can balance till the cows come home but if players refuse to play the actual game infront of them then its for nothing. It is one of the most rock/paper/scissor team games there are but the 'community' don't play that way or care too.
Bingo. You need to climb beyond Gold to start seeing some people who know how to use character kits, and even combo Ults, or heck, USE COMMS. I think the biggest change I want for OW2 isn't even PvE, it's in-game resources, or indicators of how you are performing, and how you should be playing a hero. Something like that would go a long way towards helping people play the game properly, instead of feeding Ult charge and being out of position half the time
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
She's what tipped it over. I question how much you actually payed attention to how things played out post release but goats teams were basically the go to and the game became stale as fuck
"became" stale as fuck? brother, meta was stale as fuck before brigitte. imma play the reverse uno card and say you weren't paying attention, lol.
 
OP
OP
ScOULaris

ScOULaris

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,588
Blizzard's tendency to balance by merging characters and making them less fun, rather than buffing other characters and make them more fun, is frustrating as hell and makes the game less and less enjoyable over time.
Yeah, I think this gets to the crux of the problem too.

The first time I thought about these differing approaches to balancing competitive games was back when I used to read David Sirlin's blogs about game balancing when he was working on Super Street Fighter 2 HD Remix many years ago.

if you're a DPS main in the current state of Overwatch you deserve to wait lol
Not when 66% of the entire roster are DPS heroes.
 

CommodoreKong

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,695
Personally I think it's because the game doesn't have a tonne of depth to its mechanics, so it's hard to diversify yourself mechanically. The game over emphasises the Rock Paper Scissors style design where too many heroes just beat x hero, because of their kit, because of their character.

So with a low mechanical skill ceiling, it leaves very little room for the players themselves to have their individual characteristics influence how the game is played, and instead, it comes down to which characters are picked, and the overall team strategy that's employed.

Paladins and typical mobas have less of these balance issues because while they have overpowered characters and balance issues, they have tremendous skill ceilings which means that the meta is perpetually shifting and that the characters you pick are not the be and end all of a match. In games like Smite, balance issues exist but these are much more malleable over time, without influence of the developers. You see people finding out new and creative ways to play different characters because of how diverse the game is, and how high its skill ceiling can be, which tends to prevent scenarios where everyone is playing the same set of characters.

Essentially, I'm saying that it's not about the game being unbalanced, that's not the issue, these games are inherently unbalanced because of their diverse roster. However, the issue in Overwatch is that the puzzle pieces here are too simplistic that players figure out that meta too quickly, and the skill ceilings among most of the cast too small to allow that meta to fluctuate dependent on player ability. As such the problem here is that you get these waves of stagnation, as players figure out the meta, play it to death, and then hate the game.

The issue isn't the character specific changes that Blizzard make, its instead at the heart of Overwatch's design.

Yeah Team Fortress 2 is my favorite and most played game of all time so naturally I tried Overwatch since TF2 was clearly a major inspiration for Blizzard and I couldn't believe how shallow the game felt compared to TF2. It doesn't surprise me that Blizzard couldn't patch themselves out of the hole they created for themselves on day 1.
 

KillstealWolf

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
16,071
It's a tricky thing to balance espicially when more heroes get added over time. The game launched with 21 characters, meaning each character has to be balanced around 21 matchups against other heroes. 441 combinations. Now there is 11 post-launch characters pushing up the number of matchups to 32, That's 1024 matchup combinations to balance around, more than twice what there was at launch (And by lord don't even think about rotating a hero out. When they tried out hero pools for competitive it was not popular at all with general audiences.)

I imagine a number of these problems should be fixed when the PvE stuff in Overwatch 2 comes around (Want your goofy mercy rezes everyone instantly again, we can put it in PvE because you'll need crazy overpowered abilities to take on what we shall throw at you.) but I still worry about playerbase fragmentation. You got splits between Quick Play, Classic Quick Play, Role Queue Competitive, Single Queue Competitive, Arcade with it's multitude of modes, Experimental and then Game Browser on top of that as well? Yeah, that's gonna cause a lot of fragmentation.