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Deepwater

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,349

"Young gamers" appears to be adolescents who play games between 11-16 years of age, with a second survey sighted targeting feedback from "young people" ages 13-24. They have more specific details at the PDF link.

Ideally we'd have access to the long paper (this is only the short paper) to get more questions answered. But there's no reason to assume their methodology is particularly problematic just because you haven't been granted access to the full breath of it.

Don't miss the forest for the trees.

not understanding the recruiting methodology is actually pretty important if you're going to use an non-ubiquitous label like "gamer" without clearly defining what that actually means. Just because you're willing to let your confirmation bias consume this report without any scrutiny doesn't mean the rest of us have to.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
not understanding the recruiting methodology is actually pretty important if you're going to use an non-ubiquitous label like "gamer" without clearly defining what that actually means. Just because you're willing to let your confirmation bias consume this report without any scrutiny doesn't mean the rest of us have to.
Then send them a message and ask for access to the long report.

This small summary piece and info dump on the major beats for public consumption isn't what you feel like you need to be satisfied. That's fine. But we don't need to miss the forest for the trees or otherwise bog the conversation down with likely unfounded worry about the details that nobody here can provide you anyway.

Go to the source if those details are important to you. I'm sure the relevant contact information at the Gambling Health Association can be easily found and you can take up any technical issue you may have with them at that time once you've reviewed their longer research papers. It's not important to the core points being made or the conversation in the thread.
 

Abhor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,245
NYC
Loot boxes are gambling. They need to be regulated and taxed as such. Just like a real casino you shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a slot machine if you're underaged.
 

Deleted member 2809

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,478
" Almost one in six (15%) young gamers had taken money from their parents without their permission to buy loots boxes; "
I don't believe this figure, it's probably higher
 
Dec 27, 2019
6,128
Seattle
I remember getting a lot of flack and that Simpson's meme "won't someone please think of the children" aimed at me a few years ago
That meme was inspired the PMRC hearings, and the nightmarish alliance between the religious right and white liberals that attempted to ban violent and sexual music ("for the children"), before moving onto video games. Now the same alliance has moved onto the "dangers" of online gambling, transgender people, and online pornography.
 

Deepwater

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,349
Then send them a message and ask for access to the long report.

This small summary piece and info dump on the major beats for public consumption isn't what you feel like you need to be satisfied. That's fine. But we don't need to miss the forest for the trees or otherwise bog the conversation down with likely unfounded worry about the details that nobody here can provide you anyway.

Go to the source if those details are important to you. I'm sure the relevant contact information at the Gambling Health Association can be easily found and you can take up any technical issue you may have with them at that time once you've reviewed their longer research papers. It's not important to the core points being made or the conversation in the thread.

lmfao, discussing the report isn't relevant to the thread? Sorry for having wrong think, friend.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
44,009
"But it's just cosmetic..." is an awful excuse for gambling, when obviously people care a LOT about these items.
 

EdgeXL

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,789
California
I mean, if they are spending $10 on lootboxes, how would they even be getting $10 if not stealing? The fact the percentage is as low as 15% tells me most kids are not stealing from their parents.

I believe the number is higher than 15%. I wouldn't be surprised if a number of guilty kids didn't admit to doing that while taking the survey.
 

El-Suave

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,832
The next logical step is obviously the publishers establishing a banking department so the players can get into debt with them directly.
 

TheChrisGlass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,608
Los Angeles, CA
We'll all be better off once these companies can't design games around ripping off kids with card packs, loot boxes, keys, drops, whathaveyou.

The only people that enjoy that are gambling addicts.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
I mean, if they are spending $10 on lootboxes, how would they even be getting $10 if not stealing?
?

Odd question but I'll bite. Quite a few kids have:
  • An allowance that their parents give them weekly or monthly.
  • Lunch money that they could be re-appropriating to buy loot boxes instead of food.
  • Payment by their parents for doing chores around the house. Mowing the lawn, washing cars.
  • Parents that gift them money in exchange for good performance in school.
  • Sold no longer wanted toys, games, cards, and game consoles for cash.
  • Money from birthdays and holidays given by family and friends.
  • Steambuxx from in-game item drops that they were able to sell in the Steam marketplace, which can be used to buy anything on Steam, including currency for lootboxes.
Also, consider different states and countries have different ages where you can be gainfully employed. The surveys used in this study range in age from 11-16, and from 18-23 from what I can tell. Child labor laws in America, for example, allow employment at as young as 14 and can be even younger than that in agriculture. Which would mean 14, 15, and 16 year olds surveyed are very much at an employable age if any of them were American.

So to answer your question: they could be getting $10 from a variety of means other than petty theft.

I mean, if they are spending $10 on lootboxes, how would they even be getting $10 if not stealing? The fact the percentage is as low as 15% tells me most kids are not stealing from their parents.
Obviously most kids aren't stealing from their parents. Duh? 15% as shockingly high.
 

ZugZug123

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,412
Conditioning an entire generation on a new way of gambling, damn... Sincerely, the only way to contain it is government regulations, leaving it to companies to self-regulate is a joke.
 

zoltek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,917
Eh. I think we can all agree that loot boxes/gacha is gambling and addictive and has the potential to ruin lives.

With that said, the statistics presented (including the title of the OP's article which is factually incorrect based on the referenced study summary) leave much to be desired, not to mention they are derived from a study by "The Gambling Health Alliance" (and the bias therein) without revelation of the actual survey questions, who was surveyed, and how many were surveyed.

In other words, qualitatively loot boxes are awful things, but quantitatively I would not necessarily trust the provided numbers too much. Fraught with danger, they are.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I mean, if they are spending $10 on lootboxes, how would they even be getting $10 if not stealing?

Pretty off topic, but as a kid, I got an assigned amount of money each week that I could save or spend in whatever I wanted (I mean, within reason, obviously; toys, games, etc.). My mom started with about 60 cents a week and by the time I was in college she gave me around $7 a week (you'd have to adjust that for inflation of course, so it would be like twice that by now). Other than that I only got stuff on my birthday and Christmas, and I normally didn't choose these. Each time I wanted a new SNES game, I had to save for two months. I personally think that's a fantastic way to encourage being financially savvy from as early in life as possible, and all parents should do that.

The fact the percentage is as low as 15% tells me most kids are not stealing from their parents.

That is mathematically correct, but "most kids aren't stealing" is quite the low bar and certainly not one I would be particularly congratulatory about.
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,612
Chicago
Please no one comes in here talking about self control and will power. It's tapping into the same thing that exploits gamblers and gets them hooked. This is a very neurological and real thing. We all have our addictions in one way or another. Unfortunately, shit like this is done to line the pockets of shareholders and shit. And it's not healthy for the people being leached.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
Eh. I think we can all agree that loot boxes/gacha is gambling and addictive and has the potential to ruin lives.

With that said, the statistics presented (including the title of the OP's article which is factually incorrect based on the referenced study summary) leave much to be desired, not to mention they are derived from a study by "The Gambling Health Alliance" (and the bias therein) without revelation of the actual survey questions, who was surveyed, and how many were surveyed.

In other words, qualitatively loot boxes are awful things, but quantitatively I would not necessarily trust the provided numbers too much. Fraught with danger, they are.
Wanna do us a favor and get the full report from them for us to parse? More clarity is always nice.
 

Jeffolation

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,161
SoreSerpentineEelelephant-small.gif
 

RecRoulette

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,044
Eh. I think we can all agree that loot boxes/gacha is gambling and addictive and has the potential to ruin lives.

With that said, the statistics presented (including the title of the OP's article which is factually incorrect based on the referenced study summary) leave much to be desired, not to mention they are derived from a study by "The Gambling Health Alliance" (and the bias therein) without revelation of the actual survey questions, who was surveyed, and how many were surveyed.

In other words, qualitatively loot boxes are awful things, but quantitatively I would not necessarily trust the provided numbers too much. Fraught with danger, they are.

Sums it up pretty well. Straight up there isn't enough research done on this topic yet. I remember trying to write a big thing for my business ethics class on the topic and coming up with basically nothing as far as academic research went.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
Sums it up pretty well. Straight up there isn't enough research done on this topic yet.
We don't know how much they researched here because we don't have access to the long report. All we have is a short 6-page summary report and the news article it was based on.

We can either take the report at face value based on the fact that we know there is a long report that exists, we can ask for access to the full report, or we can complain about the 6-page report not delving into the details when we already know it was intended to be the simple, easily-digestible public-facing report for articles and press releases just like what's in the OP.

Again, I suggest that those who are worried about the depth of the research should contact the authors and ask them for the full report. But let's not pretend these bullet points and the 6-pager are the breath and width of their research because it obviously isn't. Pontificating off the limited, core information provided is silly and makes me feel like people aren't reading what has been provided to start with.
 

Lunchbox

ƃuoɹʍ ʇᴉ ƃuᴉop ǝɹ,noʎ 'ʇɥƃᴉɹ sᴉɥʇ pɐǝɹ noʎ ɟI
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,548
Rip City
I refinanced my house to buy Overwatch loot boxes.
 
Dec 27, 2019
6,128
Seattle
Sums it up pretty well. Straight up there isn't enough research done on this topic yet. I remember trying to write a big thing for my business ethics class on the topic and coming up with basically nothing as far as academic research went.
No need to focus so tightly. There's a ton of research on crime, including theft. It's super common. And kids stealing money for lootboxes, rather than money for CDs and lipstick, doesn't change anything.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I'll never understand how people get this into loot boxes.

Apologies in advance for what it's certainly going to seem like an unwarranted picking apart of your post; I'm not aiming the following specifically at you, but at the sentiment you express, one perpetually echoed over and over in lootbox threads, and in my opinion, one of the biggest hurdles in the discussion.

You see, "I don't understand people that fall for this" is really shorthand for a variety of different but related sentiments:
- "I can't empathize with (put myself in the place of) these people."
- "I don't much care to empathize with these people."
- "These people have mental issues that make them different from myself."
- "These people behave irrationally, and therefore deserve what happens to them."
- "I don't care for learning about the multiple psychological traps that these games exploit (because I will never be in a position where that matters specifically to me)."

This separation of "us" from "them", and the implication that they are fundamentally alien, irrational agents (as opposed to perfectly normal people that have fallen into an addiction), leads to a very convenient compartimentalization that allows us not to care about what happens to them in the least.

In a fundamentally visceral way, I can't understand why people get into smoking, knowing as they do what it does to you. But on a rational level I can understand that people fall into addictions for all sorts of environment factors like social pressure or emotional vulnerability; and having understood that, I can at least empathize with them and wish to help them instead of blaming them.
 

AllChan7

Tries to be a positive role model
Member
Apr 30, 2019
3,670
Man I stress about overpaying for a bag of chips at a gas station, how some people just throw away money on virtual random nonsense is so foreign to me.

I know a friend who spent $200 on DB Legends, got nothing he wanted and still continues to spend on the game. I just can't imagine spending that much of money for nothing
 

Hyun Sai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,562
I don't want to tell you "I told you so" but I (and any sensible person) fucking told you so.
 

viskod

Member
Nov 9, 2017
4,398
Man and here I spent a couple bucks to get some fancy wings in Immortals and all I could think is "oh my god what are you doing, you're wasting money."
 

Green

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,426
Man I stress about overpaying for a bag of chips at a gas station, how some people just throw away money on virtual random nonsense is so foreign to me.

This is the best possible mindset about money that you could have.

Don't forget to treat yourself, though.

For me, my issue is that I can easily drop $5 on a snack from the corner store without thinking, yet a game's $ value seems to like quintuple compared to the snacks. A $5 game better be god-tier, to me. It should be the other way around, but for some reason it's not. I'm way more apprehensive about spending even small amounts of money on games compared to snacks.
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,592
It's worth noting that many of the people addicted to lootboxes fully understand that they have a problem and that they can't afford it, it's just that literally can't help themselves.

There was a Kotaku story about a man who lost his house and family because he spent 12,000 euros on Brave Exvius. I don't know how to bring it up since the site went down. https://kotaku.com/search?blogId=9&...0 on final fantasy and nearly lost his family
 

diablogg

Member
Oct 31, 2017
3,329
Yea, this is about the least shocking shit ever to me. "Loot boxes" absolutely need to be as regulated as casino gambling.

Hell, if gaming had all the stuff it does now when I was growing up playing WoW, Diablo 2, FF11, etc. I'd most likely be a 1 of the 10 as well because I have an addictive personality.
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,934
Columbia, SC
I wonder how quickly a kid could rack up thousands in purchases? To remortage a home seems like it would require at least a few thousand dollars worth of purchases, and I'd assume a parent would catch it inside of a month (when that first statement comes) if they don't check their spend online regularly.

Clearly there are some games where doing thousands of dollars worth of damage in a short window of time is very easy. I'd like to know what games those were in this story.

It could easily happen when some of these mtx games have purchase options that let you buy loot boxes or virtual currency to roll in the games loot boxes for hundreds of dollars a pop. The thing that worries me is that with any online bank you can set your account up to send you a text each time the value in your checking account changes. Its one thing to have blind trust and faith that your kids wouldnt steal from you, but we live in an age of identity theft and thats something that should be people should be doing automatically to protect themselves from fraud. I've had someone get my PSN info years ago and they hit me with that FIFA Ultimate team shit for the tune of $100 bucks. If i didn't have that shit on, they could have been robbing me blind without me knowing it for who knows how long. I was lucky and contacted sony and they looked at what happend and I got my money back about a week later.
 

Kuga

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,294
Regulate this gambling. 18+ only, and forcing companies to post statistical odds and other factual information about their systems. I couldn't care less about the "it's not technically gambling" argument; the impact is similarly destructive to vulnerable people.
 

nampad

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,238
Publishers need to be held more accountable if kids buy without their parents permission.

It is way too easy to just shove the responsible off to the parents when their business model is corrupting the kids.
 

Scottoest

Member
Feb 4, 2020
11,420
I think to a point is spineless parenting as well. If I even looked, not as much touched, my mom's purse, I would've been beaten so hard that I wouldn't even do it again. Granted, cultural things, Puerto Rican moms didn't play around lol. But sad, don't let kids touch a credit card, nor save the card info in their console, mobile or pc.

Yeah, the concept of stealing my parents' CC would literally be unthinkable to young me, because the consequences would be dire. I got my $10/week allowance (later increased to $20), occasionally got some money for birthdays or whatever, and that was it.

Consoles have the means to control these kinds of purchases, which is on the parents. That isn't to absolve the game makers of their role in creating mechanics to "hook" kids into obsessive, addictive loops like this - or suggest there shouldn't be a conversation around their regulation - but seriously, take responsibility for your kids. If it's gotten to the point where they are stealing your CC, there's a problem that needs your attention.

And yes, loot boxes should be controlled. I'm actually not in favour of outlawing them or whatever, but I do think they should result in a game being potentially rated M for Mature.
 

Ashlette

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,254
I spent about £500 on PSO2 over five months. I made small purchases here and there and it just added up. Had to just quit the game to stop myself.

Started playing Genshin Impact a month or so after, and since then I've avoided then entirely. Will never buy another loot box again, it's far too easy to spend on these and justify small purchases here and there.

I like playing PSO2 and GW2 but I can not recommend them to others because of their lootbox systems. Haven't retweeted or liked anything from their social media pages too. Feels like doing otherwise might unintentionally recruit vulnerable people to an environment that exploits them.