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Dark Ninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,070
That's true, but don't consoles have parental lock features precisely to avoid this sort of thing? And wouldn't the parents notice the charges and put a stop to the recurring purchases before it got out of hand?
Not trying to be difficult, I'm not surprised that there's instances of this happening, but in such a widespread way does surprise me. It's certainly alarming.
Depending on your bank your card will also be put on hold if a ton of transactions flood in. You will get a text saying if you made these transactions. Also if a card is saved on a device sometimes you still have to put in the code in the back of the card randomly sometimes unless you memorize it or something.
 

Edward

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
5,112
Those are insane stats. Lootbox-style mechanics need to be banned. Wouldn't mind if that's extended into the physical card game realm as well.
The difference is in card games you can buy, trade and sell singles, packs and boxes. There's tons of markets to allow you to do that.

You aren't forced to spend hundreds/thousands on boxes/packs to get what you want.
 

Legacy

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,704
Disgusting.

I know someone on my wife's side of the family who ran up £2000 in FIFA a few years back. They got the money back luckily but he was definitely addicted. Never saw him playing FIFA again online after that.
 

DeoGame

Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,077
Jesus. I'm 21, and have had my own brushes with gambling addiction, but I never thought Lootboxes would be this bad. I avoid them, but they need to be regulated.
 

bic

Member
Oct 28, 2017
432
I say 'how can it be so common to end up in debt?', but if CS 1.3 - 1.6 had loot boxes, I'd be in the same position lol
 
Nov 4, 2017
7,372
Man I stress about overpaying for a bag of chips at a gas station, how some people just throw away money on virtual random nonsense is so foreign to me.
I'm in a well-paid job with no debt other than a mortgage, and I'm the same. I'll be there calculating the $/L to see which soft drink deal offers the best value.

I feel so fortunate that gambling just does nothing for me. I can put $10 through a pokie for fun, but then I'm done. Still, I look forward to seeing how corporate apologists try to spin this.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,531
As a basic disclaimer - I want loot boxes to be banned.

Having said that, I'm very sceptical of the methodology behind this surveying. I'm not so far able to find any details of the methodology on this particular survey but a recent one by the same group says:

"The qualitative findings and learning taken from the focus groups were used to design questions for a survey that was distributed to young people across England, Scotland and Wales by RSPH and several partner organisations, between September and November 2019. The survey was conducted through Survey Monkey and promoted through social media channels. The survey was responded to by 1,025 young people who met the inclusion criteria."

I find this kind of language a bit worrying, and it does make me very sceptical of the headline figures especially when you consider that the people setting up these surveys have a clear bias and preconceived hypothesis. It's not how science or studies should be conducted in my opinion and the fact this latest paper doesn't even mention methodology makes me more sceptical still. It's important to remember we are all quite prone to confirmation bias when it comes to this.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
Does "borrow" mean steal who's lending them money? Also what game still has lootboxes or do they mean gacha system? Mobile games I assume since everything has shifted to battle passes and high priced direct buys.
Oh geez. Off the top of my head:
  • Most of the popular mobile games
  • CS:Go
  • Dota 2
  • Team Fortress 2
  • League of Legends
  • Overwatch
  • Battlefront 2 (?)
  • All of the modern Call of Duty games
  • Fortnite (are semi-transparent loot lamas still a thing?)
  • FIFA
  • Apex Legends
  • NBA 2K
  • Madden
  • The Division 2 (?)
  • Paladins
  • Assassin's Creed (at least Origins)
  • Gears of War 4
  • Halo 5 (does this still have loot boxes?)
  • SMITE
  • Heros of the Storm
  • Path of Exile
  • Battlefield 1
  • Geshin Impact (how did i forget this)
I'm sure this isn't an exhaustive list, but yea many of the most popular games in the world are laced with loot box poision.
 
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Hieroph

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,995
That's a crazy high number. This shit needs to be regulated. It's gambling for kids.
 

Dark Ninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,070
Oh geez. Off the top of my head:
  • Most of the popular mobile games
  • CS:Go
  • Dota 2
  • Team Fortress 2
  • League of Legends
  • Overwatch
  • Battlefront 2 (?)
  • All of the modern Call of Duty games
  • Fortnite (are semi-transparent loot lamas still a thing?)
  • FIFA
  • Apex Legends
  • NBA 2K
  • Madden
  • The Division 2 (?)
  • Paladins
  • Assassin's Creed (at least the last few games)
  • Gears of War 4 and 5 (?)
  • Halo 5 (does this still have loot boxes?)
  • SMITE
  • Heros of the Storm
  • Path of Exile
  • Battlefield 1
I'm sure this isn't an exhaustive list, but yea many of the most popular games in the world are laced with loot box poision.
I don't play sports games so that makes sense. COD console games don't have loot boxes anymore they shifted to Battle Pass and direct buys.
 
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defaltoption

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
11,486
Austin
Fuck yo 15% of kids straight up stealing from their parents is crazy.

As someone who has had a small taste of the gacha addiction I can tell first hand it's rough, wasted a lot of money I wish I could get back. Luckily I was able to bring myself to delete the game and stay away from games like it since.

It's even had a noticeable affect on holiday shopping with the last few years every kid just wanting a bunch of money cards for whatever platform they play on.

It's kinda crazy especially seeing how much revenue comes from in game purchases these days. A company like EA who while terrible isn't even the worst anymore makes like over 50% of their money these days from it if I remember right.
 

TripleBee

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,665
Vancouver
I just can't imagine letting my kid steal my credit card and get me so in debt that I need to mortgage my house.

Like it doesn't even make sense to me how much I would have to not give a fuck to have that happen.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
No, but credit cards and mail-orders were a thing, and it's fairly similar I think.
Nah, see with a physical credit card you'd have to go through the physical act of invading your mother's purse or father's wallet.

That's very different than starting a purchase in a game store and pressing the "buy" button and going through a confirm screen if one even exists. Often times all you need to know is the password on the console or for the Steam/Origin/Battle.net account. CVV number or actual CC number isn't required if it's already saved.

So yea, very very different situations. If kids are literally taking credit cards out of their parents wallets and typing in their CC info to make purchases, there's some deep problems going on in that house and that kid is on a real bad path.
 

Green

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,410
This is a lot worse on mobile I think. Two of my younger family members have spent surprisingly large amounts on mobile games that trend around their social groups. Gotta have the best stuff. It's gambling + cash flexing.
 

TripleBee

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,665
Vancouver
Oh geez. Off the top of my head:
  • Most of the popular mobile games
  • CS:Go
  • Dota 2
  • Team Fortress 2
  • League of Legends
  • Overwatch
  • Battlefront 2 (?)
  • All of the modern Call of Duty games
  • Fortnite (are semi-transparent loot lamas still a thing?)
  • FIFA
  • Apex Legends
  • NBA 2K
  • Madden
  • The Division 2 (?)
  • Paladins
  • Assassin's Creed (at least the last few games)
  • Gears of War 4 and 5 (?)
  • Halo 5 (does this still have loot boxes?)
  • SMITE
  • Heros of the Storm
  • Path of Exile
  • Battlefield 1
I'm sure this isn't an exhaustive list, but yea many of the most popular games in the world are laced with loot box poision.
Microtransactions aren't loot boxes. Assassin's Creed for example does not have Loot boxes as far as I can think of. I don't think current Gears does either.
 

ThatMeanScene

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,849
Miami, FL
I'm really disappointed that Sega is keeping loot boxes in PSO. They've already made it clear that the new game in the franchise, New Genesis, will still have lootboxes.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
I just can't imagine letting my kid steal my credit card and get me so in debt that I need to mortgage my house.

Like it doesn't even make sense to me how much I would have to not give a fuck to have that happen.
I wonder how quickly a kid could rack up thousands in purchases? To remortage a home seems like it would require at least a few thousand dollars worth of purchases, and I'd assume a parent would catch it inside of a month (when that first statement comes) if they don't check their spend online regularly.

Clearly there are some games where doing thousands of dollars worth of damage in a short window of time is very easy. I'd like to know what games those were in this story.

Microtransactions aren't loot boxes. Assassin's Creed for example does not have Loot boxes as far as I can think of. I don't think current Gears does either.
Yes. That's why some of those have question marks on them. I couldn't remember what system they all had. But most of the listed definitely have loot boxes.

And for the record, AC Origins definitely had loot boxes. I think Ubisoft eventually removed loot boxes in the last year or so.
 

ShadowFlare

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
217
This doesn't go into paid skins at all, does it? I've seen people argue that outright purchasing of skins is more reasonable, but every single time a new skin pops up in Fortnite, even people on Era are opening their wallets to look like Batman for $20. In Warzone, the skins are now approaching $30, and if I recall, Apex also had some gaudy price points when I paid.

I agree that the gambling mechanics of loot boxes need to go, but I also wonder if people are more likely to spend more money on boxes than they are on direct, overpriced skins.

I don't know why people have problems with paying directly for skins, no matter what the price is. It's kind of like Apple products, Rolex watches, or Ferraris. Are they overpriced and cost a lot more than what they are worth to make? Yes, but the people go in knowing exactly what they are paying for and what they are getting. You don't get that with randomized products.
 

Dennis8K

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,161
Whenever even the smallest amount is drawn from my credit card I get an immediate message.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,357
I don't know why people have problems with paying directly for skins, no matter what the price is. It's kind of like Apple products, Rolex watches, or Ferraris. Are they overpriced and cost a lot more than what they are worth to make? Yes, but the people go in knowing exactly what they are paying for and what they are getting. You don't get that with randomized products.
I think the exploitation of FOMO, marketing and creating skins that directly appeal to kids, and having them at high price points is absolutely worth discussing. Maybe not this exact topic, but I think these studies should cover how much is being spent on those types of transactions as well. They may not be exploitative from a gambling perspective, but they're still tactically designed to extract as much cash from kids as possible.
 

Gunny T Highway

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,018
Canada
I remember one time about a year or so ago a student of mine seriously asked me if I would buy V-bucks for them. I gave them the "what" look. I am your teacher not your wallet. I am sure their parents caught them trying to spend on the credit card and so the student was desperate to find anyone to give them money. Just that small anecdotal evidence shows that these practices have addictive properties to youth.
 

cowbanana

Member
Feb 2, 2018
13,686
a Socialist Utopia
Ban this shit already. I've taught my kids never to spend money on stuff like that. I buy them all the single player/co-op games they want on Steam/consoles, as long as they're free from predatory stuff, because I want them to have fun with games that don't ask them for further payments. It's all I'm playing myself and I've never spent a dime on fucking loot boxes. I have no interest in the gameplay loops found in those shit games and I'm steering my kids towards playing the plethora of fantastic "traditional" games that aren't FOMO / loot box based. My youngest kid is luckily into all kinds of PC games with sim/building aspects and he's played Breath of the Wild for hundreds of hours on his Switch. Screw FIFA, Fortnite and all that shit.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,228
Horrible this happens, but less a percent then I would have expected honestly. Real money loot boxes need to just be illegal.

One in ten is a hell of a lot. At the population level it may well be less, but even then it would not be a small number in terms of actual people. Presuming the numbers aren't massaged, etc., etc.
 
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Bob Beat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,916
Just spent 600+ on a game (puzzles and survivors, a match 3 game with some rpg elements). I used to pride myself staying away from this shit.

After awhile, I could feel the pull that it had. I just had to delete the game, out the blue. I think it lowered my mood. There's no end, except to spend money.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
I'll never understand how people get this into loot boxes.
The same way people get into any form of gambling. Try it, get a hit of dopamine from the excitement/risk, and look up one day to find your pockets empty.

Gamers roll the dice for a skin they really want on a character they've come to really enjoy in any given game...they get something really cool and feel that dopamine hit. Then they're in. Most loot box systems have elaborate animations built in to create excitement in the player and usually the initial investment is small. $2.50. Maybe $5. But then you see the value of the contents or the item you want seemingly *so close* and well...what's another $2.50?

People can burn hundreds or thousands of dollars over time without really feeling it or noticing it until they look at some website that shows their total spend and their heart sinks.
 

Deepwater

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,349
The inconsistency between "young people" and "young gamers" without any insight as to its recruiting methodology undermines the intent of the report. What do they consider gamers? People who play once a week? 3 times a week? More?
 

Cenauru

Dragon Girl Supremacy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,967
I'll never understand how people get this into loot boxes.
It's psychologically manipulative, companies even hire experts to figure out what compels people to spend money. This isn't a problem of "people getting into lootboxes", this is literally psychological exploitation.
 

Foffy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,380
I can online gamble legally though - so really the argument is these games should automatically be rated 18+ (or whatever the legal gambling age is per country).

Most of these are in games aimed for younger audiences, hence why they need to be banned. Might as well prevent gacha games like Pokemon EX Masters from existing than the controversy of it being an 18+ title.
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,545
I can online gamble legally though - so really the argument is these games should automatically be rated 18+ (or whatever the legal gambling age is per country).

I think this needs more regulation than gambling. Many gambling games involve a 52 card stack that's visible to every player, the chances of the dealer cheating is slim to none. A game can manipulate its odds however it wants and give you just enough to keep you playing.

The potential for exploitation is just astronomical depending on how deep the developer is willing to go, they have this down to a science.

Simply being an adult is not proper protection.
 

TripleBee

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,665
Vancouver
I think this needs more regulation than gambling. Many gambling games involve a 52 card stack that's visible to every player, the chances of the dealer cheating is slim to none. A game can manipulate its odds however it wants and give you just enough to keep you playing.
True. I think 18+ would be the bare minimum. There should be a ton of regulation and visibility - including probably a % of profit going toward anti-gambling ads and support.
 

ShadowFlare

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
217
I think the exploitation of FOMO, marketing and creating skins that directly appeal to kids, and having them at high price points is absolutely worth discussing. Maybe not this exact topic, but I think these studies should cover how much is being spent on those types of transactions as well. They may not be exploitative from a gambling perspective, but they're still tactically designed to extract as much cash from kids as possible.

Ya, this probably leads to a bigger discussion of modern marketing tactics and having a consumer based society. It wasn't too big of an issue in the past when the money they were trying to take from you was more "reasonable", but now companies are exploiting psychological weaknesses to extract every last cent from the public, no matter what their age. All companies are doing this to you in one form or another, we as a society have to come together to determine when it's acceptable.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
The inconsistency between "young people" and "young gamers" without any insight as to its recruiting methodology undermines the intent of the report. What do they consider gamers? People who play once a week? 3 times a week? More?


"Young gamers" appears to be adolescents who play games between 11-16 years of age, with a second survey sighted targeting feedback from "young people" ages 13-24. They have more specific details at the PDF link.

Ideally we'd have access to the long paper (this is only the short paper) to get more questions answered. But there's no reason to assume their methodology is particularly problematic just because you haven't been granted access to the full breath of it.

Don't miss the forest for the trees.
 

TripleBee

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,665
Vancouver
Though I haven't really done much lootboxes (maybe $80 on overwatch over the years) I can understand why it would be addictive.

Ironically, I was watching a YouTube channel called Shuffle Master opening packs of cards - and the level of hype involved in getting a rare almost made me want to buy cards too. I had to remind myself that I didn't even care about cards 😂
 

Sandersson

Banned
Feb 5, 2018
2,535
The difference is in card games you can buy, trade and sell singles, packs and boxes. There's tons of markets to allow you to do that.

You aren't forced to spend hundreds/thousands on boxes/packs to get what you want.
And honestly, I dont even think thats the worst part. The worst part about these mechanics in my opinion is the things that happen in the backround like variable odds etc. The amount of data these systems can use against your wallet is probably astronomical.
 

Taco_Human

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,236
MA
I'm steering my own nephews and nieces the right way by old school stuff. Feel bad for parents who's kids fall for this stuff.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
I remember getting a lot of flack and that Simpson's meme "won't someone please think of the children" aimed at me a few years ago when I had compiled a list of links in those loot box threads, showing consistently, every year, some kid or teen was stealing their parents credit card or putting their parents in a financial bind due to loot boxes. And a majority of the links at the time were related to Madden and FIFA.

Nice to finally have more data on this and showing how bad it is and has gotten.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
Though I haven't really done much lootboxes (maybe $80 on overwatch over the years) I can understand why it would be addictive.

Ironically, I was watching a YouTube channel called Shuffle Master opening packs of cards - and the level of hype involved in getting a rare almost made me want to buy cards too. I had to remind myself that I didn't even care about cards 😂
The last couple of weeks have seen a wave (rash) of Pokemon card box openings on YouTube and Twitch. $25,000 card boxes. You want to know what "part of the problem" looks like? It looks like those streams and streamers, functionally promoting gambling to audiences of kids for views.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,946
I spent about £500 on PSO2 over five months. I made small purchases here and there and it just added up. Had to just quit the game to stop myself.

Started playing Genshin Impact a month or so after, and since then I've avoided then entirely. Will never buy another loot box again, it's far too easy to spend on these and justify small purchases here and there.