Outside of Harry Potter and Star Wars films, what is the most Antisemitic blockbuster film of the last 30 years?

Oddish1 · Jan 3, 2022

I'm not sure if I should say this since it's not like JK Rowling needs any defense nor does it invalidate criticism of the depiction of goblins or any other questionable things she's said or wrote but it should be noted that I think a lot of the physical characteristics of goblins were added in the movie.

In the book the description of the first goblin at Gringotts is:
"The goblin was about a head shorter than Harry. He had a swarthy, clever face, a pointed beard and, Harry noticed, very long fingers and feet."

And I don't think their physical appearance is really referenced in the rest of the chapter.

TheGummyBear · Jan 3, 2022

purplemonkey111 said:
It's ok to like Star Wars and also acknowledge or recognize that alot of the Aliens are nothing more than racist carritures. It didn't diminish my enjoyment of the movies but it did made me sideeye GL and Lucas art with how few minorities are representing in the Star wars movies and various IP's.

I don't even think Lucas needs side eying, because it's a persistent pattern throughout his career. People acted like TPM was a big shock in 1999, but look at the stereotypes on display in Temple of Doom.

He might not be intentionally racist, but his work carries a lot of ignorant white boomer energy.

bawjaws · Jan 3, 2022

Oddish1 said:
I'm not sure if I should say this since it's not like JK Rowling needs any defense nor does it invalidate criticism of the depiction of goblins or any other questionable things she's said or wrote but it should be noted that I think a lot of the physical characteristics of goblins were added in the movie.

In the book the description of the first goblin at Gringotts is:
"The goblin was about a head shorter than Harry. He had a swarthy, clever face, a pointed beard and, Harry noticed, very long fingers and feet."

And I don't think their physical appearance is really referenced in the rest of the chapter.

This really isn't a defence of Rowling. "Swarthy" alone should be raising red flags all over the place.

Oddish1 · Jan 3, 2022

bawjaws said:
This really isn't a defence of Rowling. "Swarthy" alone should be raising red flags all over the place.

Isn't swarthy just like a tan complexion? I don't really associate that with negative connotations.

Sesha · Jan 3, 2022

ascii42 said:
This?

That would be on whoever designed the floors of the Australia House some 80 years before the movies.

skeptem said:
I'm glad this got pointed out. There is plenty to dissect already with the characters and the antisemitic trappings of gold hording goblins...but this isn't one of them.

How does set design work, I wonder? It's not like someone could cover it or paint it out in post if they noticed (probably) and cared (jury's out on that), right?

KoopaTheCasual · Jan 3, 2022

Basquiat said:
I am a minority myself so I'd say I know a thing or two about things which are offensive.

I fucking love when "I'm a minority™" is trotted out in defense of having a dumbass/bigoted opinion. It's also always conveniently never expanded upon.

I know you're banned, but I want you to see this from your main account, so you know never to be the type of idiot who uses that defense again.

emilioasis · Jan 3, 2022

skeptem · Jan 3, 2022

Sesha said:
How does set design work, I wonder? It's not like someone could cover it or paint it out in post if they noticed (probably) and cared (jury's out on that), right?

I really don't want to argue about this detail, it's a part of the existing building that was used, which is a historic building in London. I am assuming it's just part of the set, and you're assuming it was either selected because of it, left in intentionally, or not removed intentionally. Lots of assumptions, and I am not here to give the benefit of the doubt to Rowling, since she clearly painted antisemitic traits in the descriptions of goblins. But the descriptions of goblins are clear antisemitic tropes written in the books, while the set may have just been a coincidence, so I don't feel it brings much to the conversation and seems like a mental connection people are coming up with after the fact, and not an intent by the set designer or location scout.

Jag · Jan 3, 2022

Pop-O-Matic said:
Of course she names him Goldstein. Like, try having a bit of creativity...

Maybe she's a fan of Brett Goldstein...in 2014.

Pomerlaw · Jan 3, 2022

I never associated all of these to Jews but to human greed - which is universal and not tied to a race in particular???
Thread is a stretch

Palette Swap · Jan 3, 2022

Pomerlaw said:
I never associated all of these to Jews but to human greed - which is universal and not tied to a race in particular???
Thread is a stretch

You should probably read the thread before passing that kind of judgment, you might learn a thing or two about stereotypes.

Morrigan · Jan 3, 2022

Pomerlaw said:
.

It's not a stretch. Read the thread before posting a hot take like that dude

kyle mechlachlan · Jan 3, 2022

Fantasy leans on big obvious examples of non-fantasy traits fairly often. Look at Smaug and his piles of gold. That's common in story-telling. Just exaggerate a common human trait (IG: Greed) for effect.

However. Fantasy has a long history of connecting these common traits to existing stereotypes and tropes. D&D has a long history of this as well. The people behind it having attempted to make changes to these existing stereotypes and tropes and getting backlash from the anti-woke mobs.

The Goblins in Harry Potter then take it one step further. Instead of just being an antisemitic metaphor for Jews - they are quite literally codes in antisemetic caricatures to really drive the point that Harry Potter Goblins = Jews. Get it! It's funny right? They like gold and control the banks! Ha!

Vonocourt · Jan 3, 2022

Pomerlaw said:
I never associated all of these to Jews but to human greed - which is universal and not tied to a race in particular???
Thread is a stretch

Unfortunate choice of words when Gringotts is literally the only wizarding bank of the world run exclusively by goblins...

Civilstrife · Jan 3, 2022

Pomerlaw said:
I never associated all of these to Jews but to human greed - which is universal and not tied to a race in particular???
Thread is a stretch

Funny how these greedy creatures all have long noses, innit? Why that must be a natural characteristic of greed! As we all know, vices are tied directly to biology and gosh darn, wouldn't you know it, that biology results in facial features that happen to correspond to the often caricatured features of a real life group of people who have been the subjects of propaganda and scapegoating painting them as greedy and conniving, resulting in their attempted genocide. Boy, what a stretch.

Deleted member 2145 · Jan 3, 2022

Pomerlaw said:
I never associated all of these to Jews but to human greed - which is universal and not tied to a race in particular???
Thread is a stretch

dude · Jan 3, 2022

Pomerlaw said:
I never associated all of these to Jews but to human greed - which is universal and not tied to a race in particular???
Thread is a stretch

Is it though?

I do have to wonder why "universal human greed" always looks the same in media... Hm.

El Bombastico · Jan 3, 2022

Pomerlaw said:
I never associated all of these to Jews but to human greed - which is universal and not tied to a race in particular???
Thread is a stretch

Next time read the thread before you embarrass yourself like this.

doof_warrior · Jan 3, 2022

this thread is incredible

Joni · Jan 3, 2022

Pop-O-Matic said:
Of course she names him Goldstein. Like, try having a bit of creativity...

Alternatively the other way around, she picked the one she already gave the Jewish name. it does make the two female leads in Fantastic Beasts also Jewish.

Tedesco! · Jan 3, 2022

bobdole said:
this thread is incredible

Incredibly frustrating! Some of the comments excusing anti-Semetisim are laughable.

meowdi gras · Jan 3, 2022

Oddish1 said:
Isn't swarthy just like a tan complexion? I don't really associate that with negative connotations.

Doesn't really matter what you associate it with. Fact is, historically, in white Christian European-derived cultures, people of "swarthy" complexions were looked on with suspicion. It's pretty much a standard racist descriptor of Jewish and Middle Eastern peoples.

https://writingwithcolor.tumblr.com/post/133226359329/ive-seen-the-word-swarthy-used-to-describe-a

Messofanego · Jan 3, 2022

Pomerlaw said:
I never associated all of these to Jews but to human greed - which is universal and not tied to a race in particular???
Thread is a stretch

You know, your post could have been reasonable if you were voicing your ignorance and left out the last line that dismissed all the explanations and concerns voiced throughout the thread. When people realise their ignorance, maybe take the extra step of finding out instead of just stopping there and looking silly.

Pomerlaw · Jan 3, 2022

You are right, I shouldn't have judged the thread without searching more. But I honestly never made a link while watching those movies. But thanks to the internet I'm losing more of my innocence every day. Everything is shit, even blockbuster movies.

Bengraven · Jan 3, 2022

UltraMagnus said:
I don't see how anyone can see the Neimodians at least and not see a pretty blatant offensive Asian stereotype.

I remember waaaaaay back in 1999 people saying it wasn't offensive, it was Lucas making reference to how racist the cartoons of WWII were as a way of showing how woke he was. We saw it back it then and people were already jumping hoops to protect him.

Hollywood Duo · Jan 3, 2022

Pomerlaw said:
You are right, I shouldn't have judged the thread without searching more. But I honestly never made a link while watching those movies. But thanks to the internet I'm losing more of my innocence every day. Everything is shit, even blockbuster movies.

That's the whole point behind the original woke movement.

Deleted member 35509 · Jan 3, 2022

gforguava said:
Are people really going to act like the Prequels, most notably The Phantom Menace, isn't rife with problematic stuff? Watto is just as egregious as the Harry Potter goblins.

The Trade Federation run by aliens with "slant" pupils and speaking in "broken Chinese English" hit me right away. It's fucking embarrassing. Then comes Jar Jar and Watto...

Disco Infernal · Jan 3, 2022

South Park - Bigger Longer and Uncut

purplemonkey111 · Jan 3, 2022

Pomerlaw said:
I never associated all of these to Jews but to human greed - which is universal and not tied to a race in particular???
Thread is a stretch

A bunch of minorities and posters say and explain how something is racist. I should...

A. Listen and learn from those post

Or

B. Come in with my hottake of how its not racist and how all the impacted minorities are wrong.

Why do people always choose option B?

Vonocourt · Jan 3, 2022

purplemonkey111 said:
A bunch of minorities and posters say and explain how something is *Blank* I should...

A. Listen and learn from those post

Or

B. Come in with my hottake of how its not *blank* and how all the impacted minorities are wrong.

Why do people always choose option B?

Mind if I save this with my alteration for future use?

DevilPuncher · Jan 3, 2022

purplemonkey111 said:
A bunch of minorities and posters say and explain how something is racist. I should...

A. Listen and learn from those post

Or

B. Come in with my hottake of how its not racist and how all the impacted minorities are wrong.

Why do people always choose option B?

Yeah. I don't get it either. These films were widely criticized and panned for these elements upon release. Not to mention that there have been waves upon waves upon waves of well thought out critiques since. It's not a stretch in the slightest to say that the depictions in these films are racist.

Also, why the fuck would anyone go to bat for Watto? Fucking Watto?

El Bombastico · Jan 3, 2022

purplemonkey111 said:
A bunch of minorities and posters say and explain how something is racist. I should...

A. Listen and learn from those post

Or

B. Come in with my hottake of how its not racist and how all the impacted minorities are wrong.

Why do people always choose option B?

You know why.

purplemonkey111 · Jan 3, 2022

Vonocourt said:
Mind if I save this with my alteration for future use?

Go ahead

Vonocourt · Jan 3, 2022

purplemonkey111 said:
Go ahead

Yasuke · Jan 3, 2022

skeptem said:
But the descriptions of goblins are clear antisemitic tropes written in the books, while the set may have just been a coincidence

This is such an idiotic hill to die on.

Nobody forced them to shoot there, and nothing stopped them from covering up the damn star. There's nothing coincidental about it.

Necromanti · Jan 3, 2022

Not something I put much thought into in the past, but it's insidious how racial and ethnic stereotypes can weave in and out of mythology so seamlessly throughout history.

meowdi gras said:
Doesn't really matter what you associate it with. Fact is, historically, in white Christian European-derived cultures, people of "swarthy" complexions were looked on with suspicion. It's pretty much a standard racist descriptor of Jewish and Middle Eastern peoples.

https://writingwithcolor.tumblr.com/post/133226359329/ive-seen-the-word-swarthy-used-to-describe-a

Probably not a coincidence that Italians and the Irish, for example, were more often described as "swarthy" before being accepted into the "white" social group.

Messofanego said:
Then there are the miner stories.

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

In "Knockers, Knackers, and Ghosts: Immigrant Folklore in the Western Mines," he discusses how the European origins came to understand the goblins of the mines as the ghosts of dead Jews, sentenced (in properly medieval anti-Jewish fashion) to perpetual restlessness for their supposed role in the crucifixion of Jesus.

That was another interesting one to read about (that I never would have guessed). And also interesting how it lost the Jewish element when it moved onwards to the US.

The Knocker is a pretty common demon in the Shin Megami Tensei series (which is the only reason I would have recognized it), but I didn't remember them acknowledging that element at all. Just something along the lines of it being a mine fairy that knocks on walls to let people know where good ore veins are found.

But then looking at the description of it in a single, more obscure entry in the series, it also has an additional line:

Knockers are also said to be the souls of Jews who were condemned to remain on earth for having crucified Jesus Christ.

Yikes.

ginger ninja · Jan 3, 2022

Those movies are problematic but there's also a some ground to cover between being straight up antisemitic and racial stereotypes. For example:

Apu in Simspons is an example of racial stereotypes.
Whereas Temple of doom not only has racial stereotypes, it has blatant hinduphobia and orientalism.

Goes without an saying that both are bad

Vonocourt · Jan 3, 2022

ginger ninja said:
Those movies are problematic but there's also a some ground to cover between being straight up antisemitic and racial stereotypes. For example:

Apu in Simspons is an example of racial stereotypes.
Whereas Temple of doom not only has racial stereotypes, it has blatant hinduphobia and orientalism.

Goes without an saying that both are bad

What point exactly are you trying to make?
EDIT:
That neither instances should be made as so? Sure. So these movies in the threads conversations fall under on the lesser evil of stuff that shouldn't be made as so?

Sure.

Palette Swap · Jan 3, 2022

ginger ninja said:
Those movies are problematic but there's also a some ground to cover between being straight up antisemitic and racial stereotypes. For example:

Apu in Simspons is an example of racial stereotypes.
Whereas Temple of doom not only has racial stereotypes, it has blatant hinduphobia and orientalism.

Goes without an saying that both are bad

That distinction is kind of meaningless when going by the very simple heuristic suggested in this thread, the only other movie that stands out is made by an open antisemite (who keeps getting work and nominations btw).

ginger ninja · Jan 3, 2022

Vonocourt said:
What point exactly are you trying to make?

That language is important and also precise enough that we don't have to resort to hyperbole. As such, I personally don't consider Star wars or Harry Potter blatantly antisemitic but goes without saying some Jewish people might. There's most definitely way more antisemitic movies out there.

Before anyone jumps down my throat, I am a minority too. If you want blatant racism, look up this movie called The Siege. Now that is the *chef's kiss* of anti-minority racist movies.

Addendum: Star wars aside, JK rowlings works have serious issues when it comes to depiction of all races. So even if it's not openly antisemitic, I would probably call it racist-lite considering how they portrays all races. There's a lot of video essays on this I think, about how she handles the Asian love interest and the Indian twins.

Vonocourt · Jan 3, 2022

ginger ninja said:
That language is important and also precise enough that we don't have to resort to hyperbole. As such, I personally don't consider Star wars or Harry Potter blatantly antisemitic but goes without saying some Jewish people might. There's most definitely way more antisemitic movies out there.

Before anyone jumps down my throat, I am a minority too. If you want blatant racism, look up this movie called The Siege. Now that is the *chef's kiss* of anti-minority racist movies.

I always love how this always becomes a conversation of how much shit is in a bag. Like there's shit in a bag, and there's more shit in a bigger bag.

It then becomes less of how there's literal shit in the bag, but the volume of shit in the bag.

I'm not gonna sit down and not call out that the first bag is full of shit while someone tells me "ignore that bag of shit, this bag of shit is bigger and more full of shit."

If that bigger bag of shit is of import to you, I will fully follow you in calling it out. On top of saying that first bag of shit is full of shit.

ginger ninja · Jan 3, 2022

Vonocourt said:
I always love how this always becomes a conversation of how much shit is in a bag. Like there's shit in a bag, and there's more shit in a bigger bag.

It then becomes less of how there's literal shit in the bag, but the volume of shit in the bag.

I'm not gonna sit down and not call out that the first bag is full of shit while someone tells me "ignore that bag of shit, this bag of shit is bigger and more full of shit."

Yea nuance is definitely not for everyone..especially not around these parts

Vonocourt · Jan 3, 2022

ginger ninja said:
Yea nuance is definitely not for everyone..especially not around these parts

You're the last person to throw that accusation after a strawman.

Thordinson · Jan 3, 2022

ginger ninja said:
That language is important and also precise enough that we don't have to resort to hyperbole. As such, I personally don't consider Star wars or Harry Potter blatantly antisemitic but goes without saying some Jewish people might. There's most definitely way more antisemitic movies out there.

Before anyone jumps down my throat, I am a minority too. If you want blatant racism, look up this movie called The Siege. Now that is the *chef's kiss* of anti-minority racist movies.

Addendum: Star wars aside, JK rowlings works have serious issues when it comes to depiction of all races. So even if it's not openly antisemitic, I would probably call it racist-lite considering how they portrays all races. There's a lot of video essays on this I think, about how she handles the Asian love interest and the Indian twins.

More antisemitic movies existing doesn't make Star Wars or Harry Potter any less antisemitic. It's not hyperbole to label them as such.

MorganFreakman · Jan 3, 2022

In fantasy, races that are inherently evil, tribal, "savage" are almost 100% dark or black skinned

Solid SOAP · Jan 3, 2022

jleo said:
Huh? Goblins as a Jewish stereotype in Harry Potter? They live in another fantasy world. Why do we have to bring in nasty stereotypes from our own world and call the movie anti-Semitic?

If you think that goblins live in a fantasy world, you're the one whose living the fantasy, I'm afraid.

Goblins are Real

If you don't believe after this you're delusional.donkey store https://dunkeyscastle.com/donkey twitter https://twitter.com/vgdunkeydonkey twitch https://www...

youtu.be

Vonocourt · Jan 3, 2022

ginger ninja said:
Addendum: Star wars aside, JK rowlings works have serious issues when it comes to depiction of all races. So even if it's not openly antisemitic, I would probably call it racist-lite considering how they portrays all races. There's a lot of video essays on this I think, about how she handles the Asian love interest and the Indian twins.

What are you arguing?

That the series by TERF author is not as racist as some people like to think?

chiller · Jan 3, 2022

purplemonkey111 said:
A bunch of minorities and posters say and explain how something is racist. I should...

A. Listen and learn from those post

Or

B. Come in with my hottake of how its not racist and how all the impacted minorities are wrong.

Why do people always choose option B?

Couldn't resist making this.

ginger ninja said:
Addendum: Star wars aside, JK rowlings works have serious issues when it comes to depiction of all races. So even if it's not openly antisemitic, I would probably call it racist-lite considering how they portrays all races. There's a lot of video essays on this I think, about how she handles the Asian love interest and the Indian twins.

I am trying so hard to parse this.
Are you seriously trying to make the point that because there are racist depictions of other minorities in Harry Potter, that... somehow lessens how racist all of the racist depictions are?
Or that she isn't really all that racist because she isn't outright with her racism?

Vonocourt · Jan 3, 2022

chiller said:
Or that she isn't really all that racist because she isn't outright with her racism?

*COUGH*

chiller · Jan 3, 2022

ginger ninja said:
Addendum: Star wars aside, JK rowlings works have serious issues when it comes to depiction of all races. So even if it's not openly antisemitic, I would probably call it racist-lite considering how they portrays all races. There's a lot of video essays on this I think, about how she handles the Asian love interest and the Indian twins.

chiller said:
Or that she isn't really all that racist because she isn't outright with her racism?

Yeah, that one checks out.

Culturally-imbued subliminal racism is still racism.
Unintentional racism is still racism.
Oops, didn't know it was racist racism is still racism.
Seriously, has she ever addressed the plethora of racist shit in her books, accidental or not? Made an apology? Had any remorse? Anything?

But sorry, the nuance about this is definitely not for everyone.

Outside of Harry Potter and Star Wars films, what is the most Antisemitic blockbuster film of the last 30 years?

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