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milkyway

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 17, 2018
3,006
I don't think "effort" had anything to do with this. As a dev already mentioned in this thread, the licensing rights are complicated situation. It had nothing to with trying hard enough to preserve the tracks.
Is there any information out there that might clarify? I'll admit I'm pretty ignorant about it, but it seems like the involved parties should just be able to come to a mutual agreement should they desire to/find an acceptable compromise. And if so, then it's a shame that did not happen.
 

mrmickfran

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
26,813
Gongaga
That's like one miss out of a ton of soundtracks that he's absolutely killed it on, it's absolutely not fair.

Even then a lot of the Sonic 4 songs are actually well composed, they just use a terrible soundfont. Like hearing this Splash Hill remix by Tee Lopes back in the day was eye-opening, the song actually rocks when it's not being heard through artificial farts:


Holy shit

This just made me hate Sonic 4 even more
 

Edward850

Software & Netcode Engineer at Nightdive Studios
Verified
Apr 5, 2019
992
New Zealand
Is there any information out there that might clarify? I'll admit I'm pretty ignorant about it, but it seems like the involved parties should just be able to come to a mutual agreement should they desire to/find an acceptable compromise. And if so, then it's a shame that did not happen.
Keeping in mind nobody outside of SEGA knows what the situation is (there's every possibility that it's will not instead of cannot, but I can't assume), but it can either be because the rights are tied up in a legal pretzel and all parties involved don't know how much stake they actually have or there's another party who cannot be contacted at all. We've personally had one game impossible to grab for a while because a party involved went completely off the grid to become a mountain man (or so I was told).

Or it could just be a situation similar to that of NOLF. These things can apply to music just the same where you can have different rights applying to the same piece of music (distribution vs composition rights).
 
May 12, 2020
87
They could just add a custom soundtrack option for every game. Remember the days of custom soundtracks on the original XBOX, where you could rip your CDs and put the music in the game? Just do that, but with MP3 and FLAC files. Read the music files off your hard drive / SD card (for the Switch version). Sega doesn't get sued, and we get the music. Win win!

(I'm sure the PC version will mod this in 2 days, but this would work for the console versions.)
 

Edward850

Software & Netcode Engineer at Nightdive Studios
Verified
Apr 5, 2019
992
New Zealand
They could just add a custom soundtrack option for every game. Remember the days of custom soundtracks on the original XBOX, where you could rip your CDs and put the music in the game? Just do that, but with MP3 and FLAC files. Read the music files off your hard drive / SD card (for the Switch version). Sega doesn't get sued, and we get the music. Win win!

(I'm sure the PC version will mod this in 2 days, but this would work for the console versions.)
Funny thing about that, no console has a feature for custom soundtracks nowadays. I think the OG Xbox was the last one?
 

fontguy

Avenger
Oct 8, 2018
16,154
I wonder if this release will offer any insight into who composed the prototype tracks (or any other tracks, like Marble Garden, for that matter).

Probably not.

EDIT: btw did y'all know blue spheres was actually taken from a Sonic arcade puzzle game you never heard of?

 
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Grain Silo

Member
Dec 15, 2017
2,512
Is there any information out there that might clarify? I'll admit I'm pretty ignorant about it, but it seems like the involved parties should just be able to come to a mutual agreement should they desire to/find an acceptable compromise. And if so, then it's a shame that did not happen.

There's very little information because Sega is completely mum on the situation. What's evident to me as a complete bystander with no knowledge about these kinds of agreements is that if it was as simple as getting the involved parties to come to a mutual agreement/compromise it already would've happened ages ago. They replaced the tracks with the beta versions as long ago as 1997 when they released the S&K collection for PC. It's now 2022 and Sonic 3 has effectively been in limbo for eleven years. It never got a mobile port with improvements like Sonic 1 and 2, and it wasn't released on the Sega Genesis Mini alongside Sonic 1 and 2 either. Sega would never pass up an opportunity to re-release one of its most beloved Sonic games but for WHATEVER REASON 3 has for over a decade gotten the shaft.

The nature of whatever deal was originally struck with MJ's sound team could have been more complicated, there were more parties involved, etc. There's speculation that Sega might've gotten itself in trouble because it was already re-releasing Sonic 3 in things like the Mega Collection et. al without paying possible royalties that might have been owed. We don't know. The only thing we do know is that Sonic 3 has been a hot potato that Sega hasn't wanted to go near for a long time, and they must have figured that they might as well rip off the bandaid at some point. And that is what is happening now.
 

chaobreaker

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,545
I had S3&K on PC and for all intents and purposes that was the definitive soundtrack of my youth so this is NBD.
 

Kapryov

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,143
Australia
I'm curious if the public leak of that Sonic 3 prototype that happened a couple years ago might've had some influence on Sega to finally re-release the game. It's interesting timing for sure.
While I doubt it had much influence, I thought the same thing back when Origins was first announced.
The online buzz about the prototype tracks was fairly positive, which was quite the contrast to the general feeling about the PC midi versions back then, so who knows? It could've added an extra boost of confidence.

I'm still pretty down about Ice Cap, but I'll still play the hell out of this release. It's preloaded and ready to go.
 

ChaosXVI

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,851
God this sounds like a lost Sonic Adventure 1 song and I love it so much.

It really, really does. Holy shit.

I really hope Jun pulls out all the stops to make those beta tracks into some hot stuff. Losing Carnival Night and Launch Base mostly just suck for nostalgia reasons for me, since I've been playing them since 1996, but fucking Ice Cap…the beta version of Ice Cap straight up sucks compared to the original.

Have they confirmed the specifics of which tracks are out? I know everyone seems pretty certain it's these 3 zones, but hopefully that's all…Mania has Angel Island and Hydrocity and Generations had Marble Garden as unlockable so those 3 gotta be fine.
 

Conrad Link

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,653
New Zealand
We all knew it was gonna happen. :(

I grew up on these games and their music but even I will say "No big loss" for Carnival Night and Launch Base... but the problem is at the same time Ice Cap is literally THE best song so that negates the 'oh well' feelings into sad x10000000000000000 - it hurts my heart to have it missing. :(

However I stand by the thought that if nothing else, the fact that they're being replaced by the Sega made alternate reality intended music from 1993 is actually really darn cool!

Plus I'd much rather this than the games just be lost to time still, that would be (and has been) ridiculous!

So I guess in the end all I really hate is there being no physical version and that f**king price.
 

Alec

Hero of Bowerstone
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,729
Louisville, KY
The silver lining at least is that we'll get "new" Jun Senoue tracks out of this. Very curious to see what the songs will sound like polished up. Really hoping that a lot of work goes into Launch Base Act 1, the original prototype version of the song is just not good at all.



That's like one miss out of a ton of soundtracks that he's absolutely killed it on, it's absolutely not fair.

Even then a lot of the Sonic 4 songs are actually well composed, they just use a terrible soundfont. Like hearing this Splash Hill remix by Tee Lopes back in the day was eye-opening, the song actually rocks when it's not being heard through artificial farts:


I have never heard this. It's really incredible.

Allow me to fuel that fire even further lol



Made by Jun himself alongside Tee this time. He could have made greatness if he didn't choose that specific soundfont.

omfg
 
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LinkSlayer64

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jun 6, 2018
2,294
Guess I'm the inverse of every classic music fan, I lament the loss of Carnival and Launch Base lol. Ice Cap is good but of the 3, it's last for me.
 

Psyrgery

Member
Nov 7, 2017
1,745
Those old tracks being replaced with the proto ones sucks big time...

...but I owned both the Mega Drive and S3&K collection on pc and ended up getting used to the proto tracks, I guess I can live without the classic ones.

Still sucks though
 

awake4ages

Neo•Geo Saver
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,068
As someone who has always been aware of this but also has no idea about how copyright law applies here. Can someone answer for me why, if Jackson passed in 2009, the game was able to be released unaltered via the DS collection in 2010 and Steam port in 2011? This is the one part I never understand, are we to assume Sega was notified in some way ie cease and desist or something? And wouldn't something like that have forced removal of that game from Steam when it was sold for years afterward?
 

ragolliangatan

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Aug 31, 2019
4,481
As someone who has always been aware of this but also has no idea about how copyright law applies here. Can someone answer for me why, if Jackson passed in 2009, the game was able to be released unaltered via the DS collection in 2010 and Steam port in 2011? This is the one part I never understand, are we to assume Sega was notified in some way ie cease and desist or something? And wouldn't something like that have forced removal of that game from Steam when it was sold for years afterward?

it's likely Jackson's Estate started demanding excessive amount of money for licensing knowing that in a lot of cases the people making the requests would bow to them. We'll likely never know though. We also don't know how long the original licenses were valid for.
 

yap

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,903
Does Sonic 3 A.I.R. absolutely need the now-delisted Steam version Sonic 3K, or will any backup work since the steam version was also a rom?
 

Kapryov

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,143
Australia
As someone who has always been aware of this but also has no idea about how copyright law applies here. Can someone answer for me why, if Jackson passed in 2009, the game was able to be released unaltered via the DS collection in 2010 and Steam port in 2011? This is the one part I never understand, are we to assume Sega was notified in some way ie cease and desist or something? And wouldn't something like that have forced removal of that game from Steam when it was sold for years afterward?
It's hard to say exactly what went down, being on the outside.
It was around this time we saw some fan investigations and interviews with the Sonic 3 sound team, including Buxer. Here's a 2009 article about it where he confirms involvement but at that time he's not sure which tracks they did. In fact I think it was only 2013 where it was discovered Ice Cap was Hard Times.
Then there was the time the composer Cirocco Jones responded to Sonic fan questions around 2012 suggesting there was a lawsuit going on at that time about the music but wouldn't elaborate further (for obvious reasons).
 

steviestar3

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jul 3, 2018
4,439
I hope the ps3 ultimate collection has OG music and not this nonsense.

Ultimate Genesis Collection didn't even let you connect S3 and S&K together. Also it had ugly borders that couldn't be turned off and the sound emulation wasn't great.

Guys, I understand the temptation to own Sega by saying you're going to play older releases to get around the music problem, but at least stan something cool like Sonic Jam or something. All of the Backbone releases are complete shit.
 

Lord Vatek

Avenger
Jan 18, 2018
21,515
Ultimate Genesis Collection didn't even let you connect S3 and S&K together. Also it had ugly borders that couldn't be turned off and the sound emulation wasn't great.

Guys, I understand the temptation to own Sega by saying you're going to play older releases to get around the music problem, but at least stan something cool like Sonic Jam or something. All of the Backbone releases are complete shit.
Frankly I don't see why anyone who's upset about this can't just mod the PC version.

There are three other games in this collection that are far superior to any other re-release of them. Three songs are worth that.
 

Karlinel

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Nov 10, 2017
7,826
Mallorca, Spain
Ultimate Genesis Collection didn't even let you connect S3 and S&K together. Also it had ugly borders that couldn't be turned off and the sound emulation wasn't great.

Guys, I understand the temptation to own Sega by saying you're going to play older releases to get around the music problem, but at least stan something cool like Sonic Jam or something. All of the Backbone releases are complete shit.
Ooooh true, sonic jam would be the option! More reasons to use my saturn, the better.
 

ChemicalWorld

Member
Dec 6, 2017
1,741
I'm gutted :(

Ice Cap Zone and Launch Base Zone are banging tunes. I also love Carnival Night Zone but at least in that case I do enjoy the proto version of that zone.

SEGA why did you have to f up the rights in the first place :(
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
Remember how Sega has to pay Masato Nakamura to use Sonic 1 and 2 music because he owns the rights ?

Well this is the list of non-Sega composers for Sonic 3

Brad Buxer
Bobby Brooks
Darryl Ross
Geoff Grace
Doug Grigsby
Cirocco

Imagine how much of a paint dealing with the music rights is vs Sonic 1/2

"But they re-released Sonic 3 with the OG music many years ago"

Which may be the issue for starters, as we know around 2012 lawsuits started to float, as much as would happen if Sega used Sonic 1/2 music without Nakamura.

"But delete X Jackson sample from the track"

That doesn't change anything.
 

shadowman16

Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,980
but I wish the effort had been made to faithfully preserve them.
Its kinda unfair to assume effort wasnt made, its almost certain that it was. I mean... you just need to look to other games which have licensed music (see Yakuza, Jet Set Radio, Crazy Taxi) and I remember seeing comments at the time with regards to trying to relicense the music... sometimes you have a JSR situation where the devs commented that it was difficult getting the songs together, but they basically managed to get them all (a couple were missing, but considering how many were originally used, they did an admirable job), and a while back in 2017/8 when the early PS4 Yakuza games were FINALLY getting localised, one of the localisation team came on here to comment what a nightmare licensing the songs is for the legacy games - the contracts signed back when the songs were originally made make it too difficult, and most importantly, too expensive to relicense them for a new territory. Hence why large parts of Yakuza 5 and 6's soundtrack for cutscenes is gutted for sadly inferior tracks (which do affect the gravity of certain encounters and moments in the game).

Basically - this shit aint easy. Its a nightmare for Sega, and chances are they tried and it either proved impossible or just too expensive to retain the small number of tracks that had to be cut.
 

ZeoVGM

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
76,219
Providence, RI
Awful news. Every single prototype track is worse than what was in the final game. I really hoped they would go all out for this if it's to be the definitive collection of the classic games.

Not being able to separate Sonic 3 and S&K on their own was already disappointing. This just adds to that.
 

LinkStrikesBack

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,364
Frankly I don't see why anyone who's upset about this can't just mod the PC version.

There are three other games in this collection that are far superior to any other re-release of them. Three songs are worth that.

You can't understand why people whom ant the original music aren't happy when, even if you can fix it on pc, that's not even going to be the best selling version? Alright then, I'll let you ponder that for a bit

Personally, I don't mind because I'm sure that Jun will put out bangers in the place of them.
 

Luckett_X

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,410
Leeds, UK
Oh so it's gonna be tarted up versions of the prototype songs? Blech. Would have far rather had completely new compositions. Not in a rush for this then.