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ned_ballad

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
48,220
Rochester, New York
I wonder if they will be more like the Lego versions that are very clearly inspired by the originals but are legally distinct


Tbh a Genesis soundchip remix of that song would have the same vibe as the original, which is something the beta song lacks
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,010
What the hell kind of contract did Sega make in the '90s where Jackson or his estate could potentially later claim content he didn't even want to be credited for anyway? It's so bizarre.
The issue is not so much the contract.

The issue with music rights, and you see this with old TV shows as well, is that music rights needs to be relicensed.

SEGA is rereleasing Sonic 3 on new platforms so that would require relicensing, but since it's a mess with the Jackson estate, Jackson's collaborators, etc, they felt it was not worth the effort and obviously money.
 

lazybones18

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,339
I will not tolerate Carnival Night Zone music slander up in here. It slapped then. It slaps now. PERIOD


 

Mad Gamer 64

Member
Nov 6, 2017
699
It seemed obvious this would be the case with them being silent for this long about it. I like enough of the beta tracks (even having played the S3&K collection on PC as a kid where they were terrible MIDIs) that it won't bother me too much but I'll still miss the originals that are missing. It's a bit of a shame that we won't have a "perfect" official widescreen S3&K but the originals were still on digital storefronts for quite awhile and so those are still there if you own them.
 

s_mirage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,770
Birmingham, UK
What the hell kind of contract did Sega make in the '90s where Jackson or his estate could potentially later claim content he didn't even want to be credited for anyway? It's so bizarre.

One that specifies in exactly what form Sega have the rights to use the music? As well as the MJ associated tracks being absent from the old PC version of the game, no Sonic 3 tracks were on the S3K soundtrack CD despite it having Sonic 3 in its title. This is why I suspect it's more specific than a standard relicensing due to time deal. It could be inferred that Sega never had the rights to use the music in any other form other than the Mega Drive/Genesis ROMs. Sonic Jam's the complication to that theory, but could it be that there are past legal complications that Sega really doesn't want to dig up?
 

Lord Vatek

Banned
Jan 18, 2018
21,507
i read the thread

i am very confused on why michael jackson is being mentioned so much when it keeps being stated that he himself didn't do anything individually on the soundtrack?

so when "michael jackson" is mentioned, people mean "everyone besides michael jackson that is affiliated with him/or his team and also brad buxer"

so michael jackson didn't individually do anything on this soundtrack at all? i'm so confused
Brad Buxer was a member of Jackson's production team on Sonic 3, along with a few other people.

That, added to what we know now, means that basically Buxer and the others did the work, Jackson got the credit (or would have if the abuse allegations hadn't come to light and Sega buried his involvement).
 

jacket

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,976
Brad Buxer was a member of Jackson's production team on Sonic 3, along with a few other people.

That, added to what we know now, means that basically Buxer and the others did the work, Jackson got the credit (or would have if the abuse allegations hadn't come to light and Sega buried his involvement).
thanks
 
OP
OP
The Deleter

The Deleter

Member
Sep 22, 2019
3,533
I'm talking about the "MJ created the tracks" part.
The opposite.

Turns out not even the credits theme was directly composed by him, Brad Buxer even stated he had "nothing in mind for it. Nothing" for Stranger in Moscow itself, outright:



Meanwhile Stranger in Moscow goes under MJ's credits entirely rather than Buxer's on the album itself due to the personal side of the story, and an amateur mistake on his part, as he told in a podcast 3 years ago:



(timestamp @ 49:00)


Brad Buxer and his team worked for Michael, however. Whatever credit was waived doesn't change the fact that SEGA commissioned him specifically to work on the soundtrack, which in turn he asked his team to do for him. And the Stranger in Moscow credit being taken by MJ after the fact makes things even messier.
 

andymcc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,272
Columbus, OH
Turns out not even the credits theme was directly composed by him, Brad Buxer even stated he had "nothing in mind for it. Nothing" for Stranger in Moscow itself, outright:



Meanwhile Stranger in Moscow goes under MJ's credits entirely rather than Buxer's on the album itself due to the personal side of the story, and an amateur mistake on his part, as he told in a podcast 3 years ago:



(timestamp @ 49:00)


The reality is Michael Jackson probably wrote far less of the music than you think he did but hired musicians/songwriters that we're always around— sometimes uncredited. Makes sense if you think about it because the only good music of his solo career has Quincy writing credits
 

TheAggroCraig

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 6, 2017
5,908
I genuinely thought they weren't showing things for a while just to fuck with people... but alas, I was wrong. Oh well, I'll wait to hear the new versions before I judge/buy, and as other said mods exist so at least PC will be "definitive."
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,880
Columbia, SC
Aint really sweating it. Will just mod the originals right back in if i so desire. Really just Ice Cap/Launch Base. I really dont care about Carnival Night all that much.
 

onpoint

Neon Deity Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
14,930
716
It IS an unfair comparison. Senoue also did work on the Sonic 3 OST along with the other composers too.
It's putting me firmly in "wait and see mode" to be honest. I mean, I would just use Deflemask to compose for the Genesis these days, since that's the tool the folks I know that compose for it use, but I'm sure Senoue has his ways and we'll see how it goes.
 

Murlin

Member
Feb 12, 2019
1,049
Wasn't there some kind of music DLC being offered for this collection? I had figured that was gonna be the original tracks since it would cost them more to license it.
 

mtlspider

Member
Oct 26, 2017
953
And the music DLC is just some menu-based jukebox thing where you listen to the tracks. Not a replacement of ingame themes.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,973
United Kingdom
To be honest, I don't dislike the prototype songs. Giving them a touch-up to make them better fit the other tracks seems like a fair and reasonable compromise.

This should've been announced much earlier than now, though. Comes across as if they were trying to hide this from us.
 

ThatMeanScene

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,845
Miami, FL
VmU.gif


I just bought the Steam versions before they were taken down. I'm out.
 

RockmanBN

Visited by Knack - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,950
Cornfields
Proto songs suck, so this'll be a wait for sale. Sucks for Console. Sonic 3 A.I.R unless better mods happen for Origins 3.
 

crimsonECHIDNA

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,357
Florida
Honestly listening to the prototype tracks, the only one I dislike is the Launch Base Zone. Arctic zone is okay, and the Carnival Zone is actually better than the one in the original. lol
 

fontguy

Avenger
Oct 8, 2018
16,152


The funkiest track to ever grace the Genesis will be lost to time like tears in rain.

"But you don't normally get that song in S3&K anyway," you say. But it's their choice not to include Sonic 3 vanilla, and romhacks like Sonic 3 Complete gave you the option to play this track during the S3 minibosses.
 
OP
OP
The Deleter

The Deleter

Member
Sep 22, 2019
3,533
IMO, Ice Cap would need a significant makeover. It barely fits the stage (again, imo).
There are numerous attempts on youtube to clean up the incomplete song, like this example. It's not bad, but it just doesn't fit.
But it's one of the easiest, breeziest stages of the game lol, in comparison I've always been bothered by the MJ track being so hardcore for a stage that was just happy to be there for the most part.

I still don't love it, especially compared to Hard Times as a song itself, but it's getting sold a little short here tbh
 

Kapryov

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,131
Australia
But it's one of the easiest, breeziest stages of the game lol, in comparison I've always been bothered by the MJ track being so hardcore for a stage that was just happy to be there for the most part.

I still don't love it, especially compared to Hard Times as a song itself, but it's getting sold a little short here tbh
Well I was there near day 1 for Sonic 3, so my attachment to the stage (and song) is quite strong.
The stage was probably never the most difficult, but that never mattered. Music doesn't need to go hard for hard stages. The music really set the tone and made it awesome to speed through, it was the highlight of Sonic 3 for me.

The proto track might be nice, hey it would've make a cute song for a snow-themed competition stage if they had decided to go that way, but in my unreasonable and clearly emotionally invested opinion, it ain't Ice Cap.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,064
I don't like the prototype tracks, but I'm excited to hear them reworked. I hope Jun tries to keep the tone of of the release tracks more, but either way they're sure to at least sound better than the PC version lol.
 

Edward850

Software & Netcode Engineer at Nightdive Studios
Verified
Apr 5, 2019
991
New Zealand
They should have just licensed this.
You cannot simply "just" license whatever you want. Sometimes, it can even be outright impossible if the copyright is split between multiple parties who aren't communicating (or outright cannot communicate). And yes, licensing music into a game for commercial distribution is different to having enough existing distribution rights to publish the music on youtube, just because you can do one, it doesn't give you the power to do the other.

(There is a chance you're joking, though I've seen people suggest this sort of thing before seriously so I'm just throwing that out there.)
 

Hilbert

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,979
Pacific Northwest!
When I was a kid I hooked the genesis up to my mom's stereo and recorded ice cap zones music on a cassette tape. I love that music.

At least it's on the old xbox release that's still BC. Hope they never retroactively remove it.
 

MondoMega

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 10, 2018
47,474
Australia
Frankly I think Carnival Night and the Competition menu are total upgrades over the final tracks.





Launch Base I could go either way, and Ice Cap is definitely worse, but I am content with the above. Knuckles' Theme, the Mini-Boss theme and the Credits track were already being replaced anyway so those aren't as big a deal to me.

Speaking of the credits, I wonder if they're doing a new credits medley with the Sonic 3 zones also included. We know they made one for Sonic 3 Limited Edition, but obviously that can't be included as-is either because it has some of the now cut tracks.
 

Grain Silo

Member
Dec 15, 2017
2,504




I said expecting otherwise was coping.


I'm honestly really glad that they're doing their due diligence by refining and improving the beta tracks when they could have easily just thrown them in the game as-is. I'm looking forward to hearing the final versions.

Speaking of the credits, I wonder if they're doing a new credits medley with the Sonic 3 zones also included. We know they made one for Sonic 3 Limited Edition, but obviously that can't be included as-is either because it has some of the now cut tracks.

It would be nice but I think it wise to expect the bare minimum. I'd love for them to use the "unused theme" for Super Sonic like S3 Complete and A.I.R. do but I'm not holding my breath.

 

milkyway

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 17, 2018
3,004
Consider me extremely disappointed I guess. I know mods will be out for the PC version but I would have liked it on console, I guess I'm too sentimental to lose the original songs. They're ingrained in some of my earliest memories, and frankly I quite like them all including carnival zone. I'm not sure what it would have taken to have been able to preserve the original songs but I wish the effort had been made to faithfully preserve them.
 

OmegaDL50

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,661
Philadelphia, PA
Consider me extremely disappointed I guess. I know mods will be out for the PC version but I would have liked it on console, I guess I'm too sentimental to lose the original songs. They're ingrained in some of my earliest memories, and frankly I quite like them all including carnival zone. I'm not sure what it would have taken to have been able to preserve the original songs but I wish the effort had been made to faithfully preserve them.

I don't think "effort" had anything to do with this. As a dev already mentioned in this thread, the licensing rights are complicated situation. It had nothing to with trying hard enough to preserve the tracks.
 

ajoshi

Member
Sep 11, 2021
2,030
Rather have new compositions from Lopes than whatever Sonic Team does with those prototype songs. Toxic but it is what it is
 

onpoint

Neon Deity Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
14,930
716
It's fine, I don't really need to play through Sonic again anyway.

Hope the tracks sound good in the end, but I don't even like them from a compositional standpoint so I don't think the Genesis soundfont is going to help.