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Terra Torment

Banned
Jan 4, 2020
840
twitter.com

Brandon Leon-Gambetta on Twitter

“If you think that there is nothing wrong with the way that @Wizards continues to reinforce racist shit in D&D, please go ahead and block me now. I have no interest in any conversation with you or for you to interact with my design work.”

Orcs have caused a stir and are on the trending list for an odd reason. There's been a line in a DnD book about roleplaying an as an Orc that sounds awfully like some uncomfortable narratives.

rdI4MNV.jpg


I've been tweeting about it but I was curious how the crowd here would respond to my view.

I want to preemptively say that wokescolds like me are not coming for your favorite media or going to police your enjoyment. Banning anything is not on the table. I seek to educate and critique. To paraphrase Anita Sarkeesian, we can enjoy media while being critical of its problematic aspects. Orcs are here to stay. Nobody is going to take away your Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance novels.

But understand that colonialism and its tropes are the original sin of the modern age. You can't divorce anything from it. Time marches on and so has fantasy literature. Fantasy literature and its derived role playing games have, like everything, been touched by colonialist narratives. It is important to recognize that. I love fantasy. I even love elves and orcs but to think that race science bullshit isn't part of its DNA is ignorance.

The way Orcs are depicted in fantasy literature mirrors the racist tropes and narratives about indigenous and black people that was used to justify colonialism and slavery. At various times there were ideas like the Curse of Ham, to Mormon views that black people and native americans were once white but cursed by God, to later eugenic and race science views. All of this was in the zeitgeist when Orcs were imagined by the pioneers of the genre like Tolkien. Elves too are evocative of race science mythology about a lost hyperborean master race that Aryans are descended from.

Excuses about how Orcs are corrupted elves then, fall flat, because that to is also a trope of racist mythology. Ultimately Orcs aren't real. They are made up. But they were not made up in a vacuum. When they were made up, they mirrored the white man's burden narrative. And the passage above is alarmingly similar to things written about human beings in those times.

I would say Eberron, Warcraft 3, and Elder Scrolls all made strides in reimagining Orcs Elder Scrolls also does a good job not making orcs canon fodder villains that are fair game for anyone to kill. I feel that Eberron got this right. The designer didn't make fantasy counterpart cultures and reimagined the monstrous races. None of them, except for literal demons, are presented as inherently evil and Orcs have a druidic order that protects the world from the plane of madness. But even that is going to be fruit of a poisoned tree to some degree but so is everything.

None of this is to say you can't enjoy DnD or even include Orcs in your game or cosplay as Orcs, but understand that there is a history there and that history might make people uncomfortable.
 

Einbroch

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,961
I've never even considered it, but I'm a white dude so dunno. Most of the time I don't even view them as another race, but rather a species.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,420
I mean DnD suffers from this issue a lot as in order to have designated monster races they have an alignment system that is innate to many creatures, with some being born inherently aligned towards either good or evil. I mean you can argue that even in extreme cases like angels it's not technically impossible for those alignments to change, but DnD in general often suffers issues in this regard due to how its universe is set up
 

Murfield

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,425
This blew my mind when I first heard about it a few years ago.

You could make an arguement that any fantasy which protrays the entirety of a race or species (orcs, trollocs, goblins etc.) as evil is doing itself
and society a disservice.
 

AnansiThePersona

Started a revolution but the mic was unplugged
Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,682
Didn't Tokien's fantasy tropes create modern-day medieval/high fantasy? And weren't Orcs a blatant metaphor for black people in his books? If the answers to both of those questions are "yes"...
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,252
I'm not sure. It's not like savage humanoids belong exclusively to a racial stereotype. We all came from unrefined humanoids(neanderthals/early hominids/cavemen etc). I don't know enough about orcs in the history of fiction/legend or what was in Tolkien's heart when he popularized them. It could totally be a racist thing though.
Didn't Tokien's fantasy tropes create modern-day medieval/high fantasy? And weren't Orcs a blatant metaphor for black people in his books? If the answers to both of those questions are "yes"...
I didn't know about this. Since all modern orcs stem from this portrayal then the modern depictions could all be problematic.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
92,987
Doesn't help when so much fantasy is just reheated and recycled Tolkien
 

Deleted member 29682

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
12,290
Typecasting sapient fantasy races has always carried some weird baggage, but thankfully the more modern fantasy fiction I've been exposed to tends to avoid it or try to tackle the thinking behind it head on. Some of the last Discworld books had a lot of focus on the slow acceptance of Goblins into societies that previously thought of them as barely more than animals. There are Orcs in Discworld as well but they're a different kettle of fish.
 

Murfield

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,425
I'm not sure. It's not like savage humanoids belong exclusively to a racial stereotype. We all came from unrefined humanoids(neanderthals/early hominids/cavemen etc). I don't know enough about orcs in the history of fiction/legend or what was in Tolkien's heart when he popularized them. It could totally be a racist thing though.

I didn't know about this. Since all modern orcs stem from this portrayal then the modern depictions could all be problematic.

This isn't actually true but is a common misconception. Early Hominids weren't as savage as mainstream media presents them. Neanderthals in particular weren't early hominids, but co-existed with us before they became extinct.



 

Potterson

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,408
I've never seen orcs depicted as native people of anything, really. Most often they just default "bandits", just cooler, casue they're not just human bandits :P
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,356
Didn't Tokien's fantasy tropes create modern-day medieval/high fantasy? And weren't Orcs a blatant metaphor for black people in his books? If the answers to both of those questions are "yes"...

I'm pretty sure Tolkien said himself that his orcs weren't meant to be a metaphor for black people, but that doesn't mean subconscious racism didn't influence their portrayal without his realization.
 

BasilZero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
36,333
Omni
User warned: Dismissiveness regarding sensitive topic
What....no.


Never have come across that idea, first time hearing it.
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,110
Gentrified Brooklyn
Of course, white supremacy taints all. As was pointed out above, LOTR Orcs were blatantly racist in the original canon. And stupid shit like the the way elves are sometimes portrayed (always very white, always very beautiful, always very perfect) in comparison to dark elves (I mean come on, dark elves).

Obviously great writers have continually written these characters above the tropes that they were created in, but it's pretty willful blinders and or ignorance NOT to see how real world socialization bleeds into the entertainment we consume...from the same bro protagonist in videogames to awful stereotypes in movies and of course into books. Just because it's literary doesn't mean it's immune, it's the opposite to be truthful. It's up for creatives to recognize these failings and hopefully correct them. But to not recognize them in the first place just begs for the same mistakes to be made
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,252
This isn't actually true but is a common misconception. Early Hominids weren't as savage as mainstream media presents them. Neanderthals in particular weren't early hominids, but co-existed with us before they became extinct.




Interesting, thanks for the videos. I suppose that's a stereotype/trope as well, then.
 

King Alamat

Member
Nov 22, 2017
8,109
The idea of an inherently savage and/or evil race is already iffy before you combine it with the racially-coded Tolkien orcs D&D draws inspiration from. On a related note, I started to get into 5E last year and it's kinda bullshit gnolls aren't playable and are always chaotic evil; a tightly-knit family of nomadic scavengers is a great jumping off point for a character.
 

Gpsych

Member
May 20, 2019
2,886
The Earthdawn table top RPG actually embraces some aspects of the treatment of Orcs with regards to racial identity, regionalism, and oppression. The Orc Nation of Cara Fahd is an amazing book dealing with the racist tropes existing within the usual presentation of Orcs. That being said, Earthdawn 1st edition books probably had the best writing in RPG history.
 
OP
OP
Terra Torment

Terra Torment

Banned
Jan 4, 2020
840
Contrast Fate Core system toolkit


THE WORD "RACE"
The term "race" is both inaccurate and problematic in this context. We're not describing a race as modern people use the word; what we're describing is more akin to a species. When you're making a race in Fate, what you're really doing is making rules for a type of being other than human, not a nationality or ethnicity.

So why do we use the word 'race'? It's familiar in the context of a role-playing game. People know what it means because of numerous games that have come before, and it imparts an immediate understanding of what we're talking about. Is it the best word? No. But we don't have a better word with the same level of history within the hobby, so we're using it here, with the understanding that it's a problematic term.
 

Terrell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Canada
A lot of depictions of goblins present some.... troubling similarities to anti-Semitic imagery, too.

Fantasy has a lot of troubling tropes that some writers have tried to pull apart for a very long time. But clearly didn't work fast enough when white nationalist fantasy enthusiasts are clearly visible in every corner of that movement in heavy numbers.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,362
I've never seen orcs depicted as native people of anything, really. Most often they just default "bandits", just cooler, casue they're not just human bandits :P

Warcraft's depiction of orcs nowadays kinda focus more on the native aspect (shamanistic, etc) I think, especially since Burning Crusade, though the Tauren have always been the native American analogy race there.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,880
They aren't inherently racist but most depictions of them are heavily informed by racial politics. It's possible to depict orcs and other fantasy races without any of that baggage, but it happens so rarely
 

Alavard

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,290
There are a couple of layers to this.

One, yes, Tolkien's Orcs are racist, and a good deal of fantasy Orcs descend from his.

Second, there's something inherently problematic to reducing an entire race's/species' culture to a handful of characteristics or stereotypes.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,502
I recall seeing a book at the Barnes and Nobles where they had Orc Protagonists and was telling the story of a warband of them.

It looked pretty generic so I didnt bother with it, but the concept isn't bad.
 

Spine Crawler

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,228
I recall seeing a book at the Barnes and Nobles where they had Orc Protagonists and was telling the story of a warband of them.

It looked pretty generic so I didnt bother with it, but the concept isn't bad.
like blizzard did with thrall?

www.youtube.com

Warcraft Adventures: Lord of the Clans - full gameplay HD

Warcraft Adventures: Lord of the Clans is a black comedy point-and-click adventure video game under development in late 1996 by Blizzard Entertainment, set i...
 

CenturionNami

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,230
Yep, and the fact that every dark-skinned human "from the East" willing served the Dark Lords while the Free Peoples "from the West" (read:White) opposed them was always very troubling.
Except that's not even true in the context of Tolkien's works.

The humans serving Sauron in the War of the Ring were treated like shit by the Gondorians (aka the "White guys") and were driven by historical grievances by said Gondorians. And Tolkien describes them as a "honorable and noble people" who were simply opposing Gondor.
 

nekkid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,823
I actually thought they were (in modern media) a twisted representation of poor people. In particular those who are easily led by the MSM.
 

Replicant

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
MN
I would disagree with the it. Orcs to me are no different than any other demon/monster in history. Orcs specifically in the LotR universe(and maybe other) are just an offshoot of Elves that have been corrupted by evil.
 

dreams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,792
Yes, absolutely. In fact, most fantasy races that are "tribal" and evil are racist caricatures, at least in their origins.

This reminds me of the Russian "other side of the story" version of LOTR that takes the perspective of Orcs being an oppressed and mutilated people by the men of middle earth.
That sounds super interesting. Is this a book?