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Firmament1

Member
Aug 15, 2019
1,288
As a quick disclaimer, I'd like to say that I'm not saying that Devil May Cry is bad; I still really enjoy the games. I'm just mentioning a small gripe of mine about it in general.

DMC is generally known for it's incredibly complex combat, with the myriad of styles, weapons, and guns to pick from, all of which have a nice variety of moves. This isn't a bad thing: I mean, that's the winning formula that DMC has stuck with since 3, and I hope they keep it. But during this time, I've always had one particular complaint with the system, primarily in 4 and 5. That being, that the games are more focused on combat complexity than they are with the controls making sense.

In DMC 3, you were sent to a prep screen, and you had to pick from 4 styles, and you used that style for the entire mission, yada yada yada. We all know that. And in DMC 4, you were able to switch between styles by hitting the D-Pad. Which is all fine and good. But the problem is that a lot of basic functions were locked behind styles in DMC 3. To some extent, that made sense, because you were only going to be using one at a time. But in DMC 4, I ask you this: Is there really ANY reason at all that I should have to switch to Swordmaster to use the Aerial Rave with Rebellion, even though I have literally all of my styles at once? His sword doesn't have any attacks aside from the Helm Breaker in mid-air when not in Swordmaster mode... So why lock the basic juggle behind an unnecessary button press? It could've just have been easily mapped to the default attack button, and Helm Splitter could've worked like it did with Nero, where he could use it via a directional input.

Now, I realize that they fixed this particular issue in 5, when
Dante gets the DSD.
However, this problem can still be felt with other weapons. Take for example, the Kalina Ann.

By default, it has exactly two moves: Hit Square to shoot a missile, and hold square to launch a bigger missile.

But in gunslinger, it has 4 moves: Hit circle to shoot a barrage of missiles, hit circle mid-air to fire a missile downwards, Lock-on, hold back, and hit circle to fire a wide arc of missiles, in which by mashing, you can increase the amount of missiles shot, and lastly, Lock-on, hold forward, and hit circle to launch a barrage of missiles targeting one guy.

Again, why did those last two moves have to be locked behind Gunslinger, instead of just having it on the default moveset?


EDIT: Rubblatus answered my question here
Kalina Ann doesn't do that, it locks you into place when you fire your gun, so what's the difference between these gunslinger actions and the normal shoot that would create an issue? The reason you don't see Hysteric and Paranoia is that they work differently than your normal shoot. If Dante shoots a rocket, it immediately locks him in place, he fires the rocket and he can't cancel the action until the recoil animation on the rocket launcher's done. If Dante uses Hysteric or Paranoia, he can roll or jump cancel out of those animations for up to a second until he stops spinning the rocket launcher around and plants his feet to fire.

That creates a potential issue in combat where you might want to shoot Kalina Ann and buffer a dodge which is absolutely reasonable, but if instead you accidently input a Hysteric and cancel the move prematurely, it ends up feeling like your input was eaten or ignored. That's not great. Moving that to Gunslinger removes that bad scenario from ever having a chance to happen.

This doesn't apply to every single weapon in the game (E.G King Cerberus), but to me, choices like these just come off as trying to artificially amp up the skill floor and ceiling by focusing less on the controls making sense, and focusing more on them just being more complex.
 
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darkslayer101

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,178
Take for example, the Kalina Ann.

By default, it has exactly two moves: Hit Square to shoot a missile, and hold square to launch a bigger missile.

But in gunslinger, it has 4 moves: Hit circle to shoot a barrage of missiles, hit circle mid-air to fire a missile downwards, Lock-on, hold back, and hit circle to fire a wide arc of missiles, in which by mashing, you can increase the amount of missiles shot, and lastly, Lock-on, hold forward, and hit circle to launch a barrage of missiles targeting one guy.

Again, why did those last two moves have to be locked behind Gunslinger, instead of just having it on the default moveset?

This doesn't apply to every single weapon in the game (E.G King Cerberus), but to me, choices like these just come off as trying to artificially amp up the skill floor and ceiling by focusing less on the controls making sense, and focusing more on them just being more complex.

So you are saying the gunslinger moves should have been on the default button? so like lock on + hold forward + hit square for the arc missiles?
I don't understand the kalina ann issue you are bringing up.

As for complexity, I don't think there isn't another ergonomic way to add moves without resorting to what Itsuno did in DMC5. Its not about complexity for face value, the man is trying to jam in as much functional options as possible. For someone who has been playing DMC for a while pulling off these moves is easy, but creating combinations is the hard part.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,301
I think from a game design perspective the series peaked with 3. It was the perfect balance of combat depth and level design. The series has leaned hard into deepening the depth of combat will allowing the level design to slack. Luckily the combat is fun enough that it makes up for it.

I liked 5 well enough, but I'm still waiting for a true follow up to 3.
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
23,611
The Kali-Ann thing is the way it is exactly because it allows them to flesh out the guns movesets even more by giving them a dedicated style. If they just tried to cram all the various fire-arms moves into one movelist you would end up with just less options overall. The game has instant style switching since DMC 4 so its not really an issue at all.

Now DMC 3 I do feel doesn't hold up as well because its not nearly as easy to change styles. If anything the last three Devil May Cry games have made it easier to have more options at all time with Dante.
 

Kunomori

Member
Nov 1, 2017
742
I feel like It's easier to press Gunslinger button and Style button to rainstorm than Lock On + Foward + Gun Button in the middle of the air
 
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Firmament1

Firmament1

Member
Aug 15, 2019
1,288
The Kali-Ann thing is the way it is exactly because it allows them to flesh out the guns movesets even more by giving them a dedicated style. If they just tried to cram all the various fire-arms moves into one movelist you would end up with just less options overall.
How would making dedicated style attacks to default moves reduce your options? That would just mean you don't need to switch styles as often when using guns. My proposal is just that we should put the EXTRA attacks that can't really be achieved by use of the default button onto the styles.

So one says with Ninja gaiden avatar xD
Technically Dead or Alive.

I feel like It's easier to press Gunslinger button and Style button to rainstorm than Lock On + Foward + Gun Button in the middle of the air
I'm quite the opposite.
 

Kunomori

Member
Nov 1, 2017
742
I understand. Well, we would have even more moves. I can't see why to be against it but it stills okay the way it is.
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
23,611
How would making dedicated style attacks to default moves reduce your options? That would just mean you don't need to switch styles as often when using guns. My proposal is just that we should put the EXTRA attacks that can't really be achieved by use of the default button onto the styles.


Technically Dead or Alive.


I'm quite the opposite.

Because I feel like if you start cramming all the ranged weapon moves into the default movelist your kind of undercutting the value and need of even having a gunslinger dedicated style. A lot of the locked skills like for example the charge ability with Ebony and Ivory are locked behind progression within the gunslinger style.

With less moves attached to upgrading that style it becomes way less rewarding for the player to engage with upgrading that style. And at that point why even have Gunslinger in the game at all?
 

BadWolf

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,148
Why mention DMC as a whole when you are just talking about Dante?

Anyway, having moves behind styles lets them do more.

For example, Ebony and Ivory in DMC5 have different regular shot types while in Gunslinger and outside of it.

What this means is that the default regular shot and the Gunslinger regular shot count as two separate moves when it comes to generating style points. Stuff like this makes E&I excellent for style building in general.
 

medyej

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,440
Dante's moveset has been expanding in complexity but that is the appeal of the game and series. Nero was the 'reset button' to create a whole new moveset for new players in 4, and I think they nailed that. He's also just great for variety if you are used to playing Dante. Now that Nero has been fleshed out even more in 5, I hope they do it again with a new character going forward.
 

Rubblatus

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,136
By default, it has exactly two moves: Hit Square to shoot a missile, and hold square to launch a bigger missile.

But in gunslinger, it has 4 moves: Hit circle to shoot a barrage of missiles, hit circle mid-air to fire a missile downwards, Lock-on, hold back, and hit circle to fire a wide arc of missiles, in which by mashing, you can increase the amount of missiles shot, and lastly, Lock-on, hold forward, and hit circle to launch a barrage of missiles targeting one guy.

Again, why did those last two moves have to be locked behind Gunslinger, instead of just having it on the default moveset?

About the Gunslinger stuff specifically: A big thing about guns in DMC is that they typically allow for full freedom of movement to strafe while firing. That means you don't usually want to put anything on lock on+directionals because a Dante who is trying to strafe diagonally forward/backward may activate a Gun Stinger instead of just firing his shotgun. So to make it easier to verify user intent, that stuff's on Gunslinger.

But Kalina Ann doesn't do that, it locks you into place when you fire your gun. So what's the difference between these gunslinger actions and the normal shoot that would create an issue? The reason you don't see Hysteric and Paranoia is that they work differently than your normal shoot. If Dante shoots a rocket, it immediately locks him in place, he fires the rocket and he can't cancel the action until the recoil animation on the rocket launcher's done. If Dante uses Hysteric or Paranoia, he can roll or jump cancel out of those animations for up to a second until he stops spinning the rocket launcher around and plants his feet to fire.

That creates a potential issue in combat where you might want to shoot Kalina Ann and buffer a dodge which is absolutely reasonable, but if instead you accidently input a Hysteric and cancel the move prematurely, it ends up feeling like your input was eaten or ignored. That's not great. Moving that to Gunslinger removes that bad scenario from ever having a chance to happen.
 
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Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,384
Houston, TX
Dante's moveset has been expanding in complexity but that is the appeal of the game and series. Nero was the 'reset button' to create a whole new moveset for new players in 4, and I think they nailed that. He's also just great for variety if you are used to playing Dante. Now that Nero has been fleshed out even more in 5, I hope they do it again with a new character going forward.
I still feel like there's room to expand Nero's moveset going forward.
Now that Nero has Devil Bringer back, you can have it be the get-over-here ability while the Devil Breakers can get directional moves.
 
Dec 14, 2017
1,351
Because I feel like if you start cramming all the ranged weapon moves into the default movelist your kind of undercutting the value and need of even having a gunslinger dedicated style. A lot of the locked skills like for example the charge ability with Ebony and Ivory are locked behind progression within the gunslinger style.

With less moves attached to upgrading that style it becomes way less rewarding for the player to engage with upgrading that style. And at that point why even have Gunslinger in the game at all?
This is what I was going to say essentially. DMC has an amount of moves that you can't have one mega omni style, but yes, there are some moves that could be built into the weapons and be style agnostic. As you mentioned op, DSD is this. KA I don't agree as much, only thing I wish it had was grapple again in GS.

For new players the style switching/locking helps them learn the whole move set as well. The more default/built in moves each weapon has the more a player has constant access to. By having styles players can incorporate moves in their playstyle better by taking the time to learn them and how to execute them.
 

BadWolf

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,148
I can only speak for Black, but Ninja Gaiden is tough without being very complex

I think NGB has more depth and difficulty than DmC did, but that game felt like it had way more moves and such

It's pointless directly comparing the two series, they have entirely different goals.

DMC is about styling first and foremost, thus all the moves and complexity.
 
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Firmament1

Firmament1

Member
Aug 15, 2019
1,288
Kalina Ann doesn't do that, it locks you into place when you fire your gun, so what's the difference between these gunslinger actions and the normal shoot that would create an issue? The reason you don't see Hysteric and Paranoia is that they work differently than your normal shoot. If Dante shoots a rocket, it immediately locks him in place, he fires the rocket and he can't cancel the action until the recoil animation on the rocket launcher's done. If Dante uses Hysteric or Paranoia, he can roll or jump cancel out of those animations for up to a second until he stops spinning the rocket launcher around and plants his feet to fire.

That creates a potential issue in combat where you might want to shoot Kalina Ann and buffer a dodge which is absolutely reasonable, but if instead you accidently input a Hysteric and cancel the move prematurely, it ends up feeling like your input was eaten or ignored. That's not great. Moving that to Gunslinger removes that bad scenario from ever having a chance to happen.
Thanks for actually giving me an answer.
 

inner-G

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
14,473
PNW
DMC 5 was way too complex

I don't understand half of the combat and I ended up just mostly using the motorcycle arms or the sword most of the time.
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
23,611
Aaaand you've successfully answered your question right there.

Yeah, but that is exactly the thing. Gunslinger is EXTREMELY useful in a lot of scenarios. You would have less overall ranged arm moves if you didn't have a Gunslinger style and that is just a net loss for the combat options in the game.
 

That Dude John

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 25, 2017
922
I forget. Doesn't Kalina Ann force Dante to plant his feet when he fires? In that particular case, I'd be okay with sticking more moves on the default fire button as opposed to the style button. As for the other weapons, I'd rather be able to strafe and fire with the normal button and have more specialized attacks on the style button.
 

Septimus Prime

EA
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
8,500
I thought it was funny that they ostensibly simplified Nero's charge shot mechanic (which in 4 pretty much necessitated remapping the gun button) just to bait and switch you later on.
 
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Firmament1

Firmament1

Member
Aug 15, 2019
1,288
Yeah, but that is exactly the thing. Gunslinger is EXTREMELY useful in a lot of scenarios. You would have less overall ranged arm moves if you didn't have a Gunslinger style and that is just a net loss for the combat options in the game.
Okay, my point is that if you can have the attacks be on the default buttons without needing a style... Then they should be put there. I personally think that only extra attacks that don't fit on the dedicated button should belong on styles.
 

BadWolf

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,148
DMC 5 was way too complex

I don't understand half of the combat and I ended up just mostly using the motorcycle arms or the sword most of the time.

It's as complex as you want it to be. You don't have to do combo video level stuff to have fun.

That being said the complexity is also what gives it so much life. You can replay the game for years to come and still learn new stuff.
 

Sibersk Esto

Changed the hierarchy of thread titles
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,515
Rubblatus basically answered it for me, but yeah there are core uses for melee and guns in DMC and style switching allows for moves that may end up clashing with each other to be their own dedicated button.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
As someone who plays action games on a straight line of "find the simplest solution, move on when necessary", I agree in spirit but find that DMC being able to thrive as a hardcore action title to be uplifting in this homogenized gaming industry.

Then again Nero was still my favourite of the trio to actually play because he was so much easier. V and especially Dante I never got a handle on.
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
23,611
Okay, my point is that if you can have the attacks be on the default buttons without needing a style... Then they should be put there. I personally think that only extra attacks that don't fit on the dedicated button should belong on styles.

And I'm saying that undercuts the usefulness of the style and how rewarding it is for the player to engage with that style. The execution and complexity of the combat is part of that style. When you switch to Gunslinger or any style for that matter your making an active choice. That is part of the balancing act of keeping all the plates spinning and getting your SSS Combos. Which is why I would be against putting any of the gunslinger moves on the default style.
 

exodus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,951
I feel similarly about most character action games. But I realize they're just not made for me.
 

Rubblatus

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,136
Thanks for actually giving me an answer.
Nah prawb. DMC doesn't always make the right calls (DMC3's Artemis having its single target charge shot ability on style and its multi-target charge shot on normal shoot when every other weapon uses Gunslinger for AOE-ish actions, Aerial Rave in DMC3/4 becaus legacy, Nero's Wire Snatch not being an unequippable move), but there's usually a reason for things.

Okay, my point is that if you can have the attacks be on the default buttons without needing a style... Then they should be put there. I personally think that only extra attacks that don't fit on the dedicated button should belong on styles.
I would recommend giving DMC2 a spin. It tried different ways to work Gunslinger actions (Specifically E&I and the Shotgun) into the game without requiring a dedicated button for them, but it's also DMC2 so it went about as well as you'd expect.
 

Mekanos

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,177
I feel like the great thing about character action games is you can just have fun styling on enemies and watching the goofy cutscenes, or you can learn to speedrun and pick up new tricks on replays. I've never found a character action game too complex (on Normal anyway) to be unenjoyable since you can usually beat most of the game button mashing and watching enemy patterns.

The games give you tools if you want to try more challenging playstyles, but they can also allow for more simplistic gameplay.
 

BeaconofTruth

Member
Dec 30, 2017
3,427
Yeah fuck that DMC controls fantastic and has rebindable controls to boot. Can't say the same for the rest of the genre.

All of the moves have utility and unique properties.
 

Okabe

Is Sometimes A Good Bean
Member
Aug 24, 2018
19,939
You'll get those moves added as normal moves when in DMC6
 
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Firmament1

Firmament1

Member
Aug 15, 2019
1,288
And I'm saying that undercuts the usefulness of the style and how rewarding it is for the player to engage with that style. The execution and complexity of the combat is part of that style. When you switch to Gunslinger or any style for that matter your making an active choice. That is part of the balancing act of keeping all the plates spinning and getting your SSS Combos. Which is why I would be against putting any of the gunslinger moves on the default style.
If it really undercuts the usefulness of the style just by having it be a basic function, that just gives me the impression that gunslinger was never that necessary from the outset.

I would recommend giving DMC2 a spin. It tried different ways to work Gunslinger actions (Specifically E&I and the Shotgun) into the game without requiring a dedicated button for them, but it's also DMC2 so it went about as well as you'd expect.
I'm not really sure if I want to put myself through DMC2 again.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,052
I can only speak for Black, but Ninja Gaiden is tough without being very complex

I think NGB has more depth and difficulty than DmC did, but that game felt like it had way more moves and such

Because NGB is so difficult people tend to want to play it optimally, meaning they're going to laser focus on a handful of skills that works really well and are relatively simple to execute, e.g. Flying Swallow spam.

DMC is for people who wants to utilize the full extend of everything that is given to them even if they're not really the optimal play. And despite what people think the series is NOT easy, otherwise everyone would have cleared Bloody Palace >_>

It's just a matter of what sort of players you are.
 
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DanteMenethil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,062
Havent tried it but I imagine a controller with paddles would work wonders to style switch without giving up the joystick or buttons.
 

DarKaoZ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
711
I been saying this since DMC4 Dante. We should have a STYLE Modifier, think of Angel and Demon forms on DmC. But applied to Styles, you hold the button, then press gun, you get a Gunslinger attack. You hold style modifier button and then press Sword, you get a Sword Master attack, etc.

This would help make the game easier to deal with IMO, no need to hold the controller in double claw style... that is just painful to do in a long session. >_<

Still props for people who can do all those crazy changes of styles and weapons with ease with Dante in the current button layout, even when modified/customized.
 

CloudCircus

Member
Dec 9, 2017
819
For me, there are way too many moves to remember. Astral chain is the first time that I feel like I am playing a character action game correctly
 

Deleted member 3038

Oct 25, 2017
3,569
It's been a while since I played DMCV, but I always felt off by the combat in the game; It makes no sense considering I'm a huge fan of platinum games and I'm generally pretty good at all of them. but when I play DMC it feels like everything is way slower for almost 0 reason.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,052
It's been a while since I played DMCV, but I always felt off by the combat in the game; It makes no sense considering I'm a huge fan of platinum games and I'm generally pretty good at all of them. but when I play DMC it feels like everything is way slower for almost 0 reason.

The game can be as fast or as slow as you want it to be. Just take a look at any high level play.

The key is the free flow combat that lets you change your mind and cancel out of animation at many points in your Attack string. So instead of finishing with the slow Nero sword swing, you can cancel it into a launcher for example.
 
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Firmament1

Firmament1

Member
Aug 15, 2019
1,288
I been saying this since DMC4 Dante. We should have a STYLE Modifier, think of Angel and Demon forms on DmC. But applied to Styles, you hold the button, then press gun, you get a Gunslinger attack. You hold style modifier button and then press Sword, you get a Sword Master attack, etc.

This would help make the game easier to deal with IMO, no need to hold the controller in double claw style... that is just painful to do in a long session. >_<

Still props for people who can do all those crazy changes of styles and weapons with ease with Dante in the current button layout, even when modified/customized.
That actually makes a lot of sense! Maybe Circle by default is the dodge button, and then when you hold, say L1, it becomes the parry.

Maybe it could be an alternate gameplay mode for coming series.
 

Sibersk Esto

Changed the hierarchy of thread titles
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,515
For me, there are way too many moves to remember. Astral chain is the first time that I feel like I am playing a character action game correctly
I usually can't be arsed to keep most of the combos in mind in most platinum games but I can usually deal with DMC since it keeps to one attack button, attack then pause, attack attack then pause, target + forward/back, back forward, or hold

That line-up will usually apply to every weapon in the game. I don't pay much mind to HEAVYLIGHTHEAVYHEAVY type combos
 

zoodoo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,748
Montreal
I find the combo system way too complex in DMC. Only maybe 3% of the player base will actually use it to the fullest and post videos on youtube. But I am fine with giving more choices to the player. On the otherhand I think the games are really lacking in terms of level design since 1. They should probably focus on that for the next entry.
 

rarewolf

Member
Feb 7, 2019
139
The complexity turned me off a bit in all honesty. I'd much rather play something less complex but more difficult and satisfying like Ninja Gaiden. DMC5 is like learning a fighting game with all of its deep mechanics and possibilities. With that said, I did make it through and found a fair bit of enjoyment, although I much preferred DmC.
 

Rubblatus

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,136
It's extremely useful.
Once the Devil Bringer entered the picture, I stopped using it entirely. I don't use Hold so being able to Snatch while holding something isn't interesting, I don't use Rawhide for the Wire Snatch buffs so that doesn't do much for me, and my inputs are clean enough that I don't need to have the wire snatch input buffer either. So instead I've disabled it with CheatEngine (because Capcom won't let me otherwise) and I'm able to use Breakers without dropping lock-on now, which feels fantastic.

I don't object to Wire Snatch existing, I object to not being able to remove it to improve my gameplay experience once it outlives its purpose in the story.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,624
DMC5 is the most complex action game ever made and I don't even think it's close. Amount of mechanics, moves/abilities and tools of Dante in DMC5 is absolutely insane. I learn something new every day since the game came out. This is a game for a very select type of gamer base.







Half an hour videos on singular Dante weapons that doesn't even cover his DT/SDT mechanics, Style mechanics and his various firearms (which also have built in moves). Honestly DMC5 Dante is the Uchiha Madara copy paste meme of action game characters.