100% agree, some people really need to get some perspective.
If only people got this upset about issues that matter more, like crunch culture at AAA developers.
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Ooblets will be exclusive to Epic Games Store on PC
- Thread starter fieldafar
- Start date
100% agree, some people really need to get some perspective.
If only people got this upset about issues that matter more, like crunch culture at AAA developers.
This reads to me like you're using a bunch of words to basically tell people to keep their negative sentiments to themselves and not discuss them here or elsewhere out of fear of encouraging harassment.
I don't want to deal with usb sticks for my save files and we were talking about egs anyway lol I don't have a problem with the gog client (I have a problem with cdpr for their twitter thing tho)
I pretty much agree with this, but I do think sometimes even anger can have a constructive force. Not in this case though, and just generally pertaining to EA and EGS I think it is, as people often will say about it, ill informed, spreading false information even and the worst part of it: finding individual involved (who ultimately are just business partners and workers) to harrass. I would always agree that that part is just not okay.
It's about attacking the subject, not the person. "I am against the idea that the developer took their money", not "I hate you, how dare you make a deal I don't like you piece of shit."
It depends on the negative sentiment. The sentiments I described (expectation/ownership/entitlement to how a developer releases their project, or spends their time, externalized by picking over their every word and demonizing them) should be kept to yourself and ideally like, not held at all.
If you want to harmlessly complain you cant play the game how you want I think that's totally cool?
Whats good about family sharing is that every configuration, achievments, save files(in most cases) are unique to the account playing the game, and it works any where, not only in your house, so you can "lend"your games for your friends.
This is a good idea because it seems inevitable if there's a huge thread about a specific dev, then eventually harassment seems to be the conclusion.
As long as people make sure to keep things civil, I think that it is perfectly fine for people to criticize business decisions. Both sides are defending their interests.
There's a world of difference between "ah I hate exclusivity deals, they suck! I do not like buying games from people who do them!" and like, literally any post in any egs thread.
such as this one:
that exhibits entitlement to how the developer behaves/presents their game and considers it "dismissive", "condescending", and "shitty" when the developer merely does not indulge them in the way they believe themselves to be entitled to
You do realize that most of the discussion in this thread came about as a result of the horribly condescending and dismissive attitude that was shown by the developer, right? I've been trying to keep up the whole way, but I can't recall many if any posts from people expressing a sense of entitlement that the developer should be *obligated* to publish their game on Steam or anywhere else. A lot of people saying, "oh well, I'll skip it, then" and even some people who were happy to see it go exclusive to EGS, but I'm not seeing this sense of entitlement you're talking about. Even when the dude delivered the cold "no amount of hardship means we owe you our game" line, people agreed that he was technically correct, of course, but wow, that's a shitty thing to say.
Literally any post in any EGS thread? Don't you think this is a touch hyperbolic?
There are over 3,000 posts in this thread alone. Would you mind posting some examples of what you feel is so problematic instead of writing up wild generalizations and insinuating that they apply to large parts of the community?
It was absolutely hyperbolic, but I would challenge you to read a few pages of any egs thread at random and not find posts in which gamers express outrage that a developer should self-determine where they sell their game, or insults targeted at the developer. We both know this behavior happens constantly.
Edit: I'm going to indulge you here. I went to a random page from this thread:
between calling the developer an ass, posts literally saying he's greedy, weird persistent insinuations that his wife??? who is also making the game??? needs help with her relationship??? and multiple posters who escalated enough to receive a ban it should be pretty clear what I'm talking about.
It sure would be great if you could provide some specific examples of what you mean...
I think you're doing a good job misrepresenting people's complaints with Epic's EGS strategy. A lot of what you wrote is uncontroversal because videogame entitlement isn't a stance most people are taking. If I were an indie developer I'd be interested in taking a deal too if I felt there was a high risk of financial loss. I do have a problem with the way Epic is changing the market and the flippant response those concerns are often met with.
I really dislike when people come into this thread and insinuate that Era as a whole was part of the harassment campaign. It's more like we were a bit too cut off from it and kept talking about the original stuff as if the brigading wasn't happening. Some users went too far and got moderated, especially anyone who dared to victim blame, but in general we have been trying to keep this on a respectable level.
Yes you can point out specific posts and report anything you find should be moderated if it wasn't.
But claiming things like what catswaller is doing atm isn't at all a good look.
Looking back at it, what perplamps said is pretty insignificant, but it was what the topic was about at the time. It was a thread about his announcement and discussions about it.
Yes you can point out specific posts and report anything you find should be moderated if it wasn't.
But claiming things like what catswaller is doing atm isn't at all a good look.
No they weren't and no doctored screencaps were posted here. I specifically came in and warned people that one was doing the rounds so that everyone would know that it was fake. Some of the other screencaps were discussed as maybe taken out of context and I think those discussions were pretty civil.
Looking back at it, what perplamps said is pretty insignificant, but it was what the topic was about at the time. It was a thread about his announcement and discussions about it.
I can't wrap my head around the sense of entitlement necessary for people to think the developers somehow owe them something, and I'm happy the developer called it out as such in today's Medium post.
The doctored screencaps were so clearly doctored that you had to be out of your mind to believe them.
I do not believe era is part of any harassment campaign (the moderation here is thankfully good enough to keep anybody like that from being a member for too long), I think era participates in the same culture that generates/inspires the harassment campaigns.
I believe I have been pretty clear about the connection and the line between the two in my last few posts, but I'm happy to clarify further if any of what I'm saying isn't clear to you.
How about clarifying with some specific examples of posts you view as problematic and contributing to the culture that generates harassment campaigns? That's a hell of an accusation to make and your talking in broad generalizations about the community really isn't helpful at all.
I linked a page full of posts above, on this page. I'm not interested in singling out posters or compiling lists, and you can refer back to my last few posts if necessary to clarify my stance on why those posts are bad/how they connect to worse behavior.
It seems to me like you're only interested in making generalized insinuations about the community so you can tsk tsk people about contributing to a culture of harassment without having to actually provide any specifics. I think this approach really sucks. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it also seems like you think negative sentiment towards individuals, regardless of what they did or said, should be kept to oneself and not discussed on this forum.
Yes, but sadly people are sometimes out of their minds when they get too invested in something, even if they are normally fine people. The topic was heated and people got fed more and more posts from the Discord completely stripped of all context (via Twitter mostly) that I felt that the info was needed. It was ramping up fast.
I saw my own screencap (that I took to give context to the ableist tweet thing that was already a topic, not to start something) edited and spread around Twitter too.
OK, so what about any of those posts do you view as problematic? I'm certainly expressing a great deal of frustration in them, but what is wrong with any of that? Is it really just the negative reaction that is the issue?
You are wrong. That's a serious misreading of my last few posts, if you can point to where you came to that misunderstanding I can try to clarify. If you would like me to single posters out, I second kitschy kitty's post above as examples of behavior I would consider harmful.
I'll ask you as well, then. In what way are they harmful? How did my posts expressing frustration about specific things said or done by this developer (or other posters/tweets) contribute to a culture of harassment? Those are examples of things that you think I should have kept to myself?
These are all posts that might illustrate this (two are by me, one is by another user)
After this, I'm not interested in pursuing this line of conversation any further, so i probably won't reply to your next post if you quote me again.
Will you please stop just linking to posts that contain multiple points and asking others to figure out what you mean? A bit of specificity in your responses would be appreciated.
Anyway, to look at each of those posts...
That certainly doesn't apply to what I wrote. I did not express frustration at their business decision. I did the opposite in fact. I've stated multiple times that taking Epic's deal makes a ton of sense.
Didn't call them greedy devs, either. In fact, I wrote earlier in the thread that this has nothing to do with consumer rights or worker rights. I am not making this into an us vs. them thing and I have agreed multiple times that devs really do not owe anyone games, nor do potential customers owe anyone their money or attention.
Nope, this one doesn't apply either. I never expressed any of this sentiment and actually have stated the opposite multiple times.
So, why did you use these posts as a response to my question about why you thought my posts linked above were problematic? I'm assuming you won't reply, because you've already decided to bail out. It almost feels like you were being purposefully vague so you could get in some jabs at the community at large and try to make people feel guilty for things they have no part of.
I consider splicing two unrelated messages to make someone look bad as a doctored evidence. We also had people arguing they posted the announcement in the end of the month to cheat patrons out of their money, or that the devs were greedy people that care only about money and hate their consumers. People assuming the pepe emojis were from their server, so they were bad people. You had others literally going through one of the devs' history to find anything bad they could about them. Some gloating about their patreon numbers going down.
If we keep pretending we are not part of the problem, we won't be able to improve discussion here, let alone others places of the internet.
okay, you got me, one last reply:
post 1 & 2 are "us vs them", gamers vs devs personal attacks
posts 3 & 4 are "greedy devs", attacks that imply they're taking advantage of or otherwise harming other people to enrich themselves just by making a normal fucking deal.
I'm not going to be able to enumerate every single form that an entitled gamer attack can take in one of my posts, because language is infinitely variable. You're going to have to do some self reflection on your own to see what assumptions and worldviews are baked into your statements and beliefs in the future.
Did that turn out to be fake too, or did patrons get charged again close to the announcement still?
Each of these posts and points you're talking about were called out and/or corrected multiple times. Why are you trying to assign collective responsibility for individual actions?
I don't think you have been and I think accusing era of being part of the same culture is doing a disservice to the conversation that is trying to occur, those links you provided don't really provide any context to what you are saying.
You have posters in this very thread accusing people of something that they were not doing and than instead of engaging, they say they won't reply back. It's not an us vs them thing, both parties need to work through it and accusations are not the best way of doing it.
The two "spliced messages" were actually together in the same conversation, as another person posted that screenshot. It would be better to say it was just taken out of context (as the developer was getting told many sob stories that were probably fake and said that). No need to call everything fake.
How do you avoid this though? It's impossible. Tell those people to fuck off and let those who are criticizing in good faith keep criticizing. Everything else is just exhausting.
I certainly didn't intend those to be making this an "us vs. them" thing. I hate that line of argument, honestly. Post #2 was about perplamps making this whole thing into a "with us or against us" situation, which is exactly what it appeared he was doing to me.
#3 was about the idea that we should applaud the idea that only *certain* devs getting preferential treatment by Epic is a good thing and that this somehow makes the PC gaming market better for all.
#4 was not about them taking the deal. Just that continuing a Patreon intended to fund their full-time development after taking this deal came across as a shitty thing to do. A lot of people disagreed with that sentiment, though.
I would likewise encourage you to do some self reflection about the sentiment baked into your broad accusations leveled at the community at large.[/QUOTE]
Expressing entitlement and hatred of game developers over something as trivial as choosing to sell or not sell their game to you is toxic whether you are able to rationalize it or not!
The tone is about as hostile as you felt perplamps tone was. That's the issue.
I myself regret my very first post in this thread. I said that they "pissed on their fans" which was way too broad and harsh. I was speaking as a baffled fan that felt provoked and talked down to by what I read as "but it's just another launcher", dismissal of the real issues I have with Epic/EGS and the whataboutism. But my tone wasn't okay. I am better than that.
Which one was spliced? The one with the Malaysian dad is the one that has had that claim surrounding it and that is false. The answer didn't come after the dad posted it, true, but the post was screencapped by someone and it was posted as "remember this guy?" right there in the Discord above what looks like an answer to that post. That got complicated but in the end it wasn't doctored as much as simplified. I have defended perplamps there tho since I do believe posts about piracy have been deleted (in the Discord, not by someone posting a screencap because the screencap was accurately showing how it looked on Discord) so that the answer looked like it only adressed the dad's message and not the pirates using the message to excuse their actions.
I have never said no one here is part of the problem, I am saying we as a community are not. Some people post shitty stuff but the majority do not. The majority shoot down things like the Pepe and Patreon stuff and it didn't resurface because people learn. In the first case a lot of people simply didn't know it could have come from outside because they don't understand Discord. It's like what I said above about some people who are fine can get too worked up in some situations and latch on to stuff they get fed from multiple directions. I don't blame people for thinking the worst, I know everyone can do wrong without being bad people. It's all about what you do after you are told you were wrong.
I don't find it constructive to say that "we are part of the problem" and make sweeping statements about threads and topics. I find that promoting the good people doing a good job of moderating and informing people is a more constructive tactic.
Just for help the spliced text is here:
You can see the "malasyan" post right up (cut due to screen limits). As I said, you can better attribute it to be put out of context.
Assuming that was addressed towards me, allow me to be clear: that is not what is happening and your awful accusations are unwelcome.
I do not care where they choose to sell their games.
I see where you're coming from, but I don't agree that "hostile tones" are an issue. Responding with obvious anger or frustration is not necessarily a bad thing.
This is the same thing that happened with Pokémon. When people can't justify their defense of a company, they instead point to the worst people on Twitter in an attempt to shut down criticism.
Love this post and I find it hilarious that people can be pissed off by their post. It's meant to humorous and the fact that people are taking so much offense and directing so much hate towards devs over being EGS-exclusive is embarrassing. People need to be more mature and civilized.
I don't have an issue with anyone trying to have a conversation and try to work through it, I just don't accusing the whole forum of something is a good thing.
I don't think accusing the whole forum of something is fair either. This is something that needs everyone's attention to fix and not just accuse.
Culture, inherently, is something that's the responsibility of large groups. A few bad apples cannot make a 60 page thread for every game ever announced on egs.
I think I've been clear, but I'd like to repeat myself: I don't think most posters contributing to this bad culture are harassers or acting in extreme ways. But they're still contributing to a culture of picking apart devs' posts/histories to attack them and spreading greedy devs narratives, and etc.