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The One Piece fandom and trans characters
- Thread starter Reyes
- Start date
The issue is mainly that Oda chose to write an island full of predatory non-binary people that then pursued Sanji for two years, although Sanji's vitriol for the place doesn't help.
Genuinely the worst part of the manga for me. It feels so mean-spirited towards such a disenfranchised group, when the rest of the series represents pretty much the complete opposite of that.
There is a lot to criticize with Oda in terms of his handling of trans characters.
That being said, as others have pointed out, Yamato is male and not using the correct pronouns for him is transphobic. The same goes with not using female pronouns for Kiku.
Hopefully Oda doesn't fuck up in regards to their characters.
That being said, as others have pointed out, Yamato is male and not using the correct pronouns for him is transphobic. The same goes with not using female pronouns for Kiku.
Hopefully Oda doesn't fuck up in regards to their characters.
you are aware that sanji doesn't exist, and we're discussing Oda's writing, right? ppl didn't forget this. it's irrelevant.
It takes literally $0.00 to just respect what someone comes out with as their preferred means of addressing them and when you have golden good boys like Luffy and absolute actual bastards like Kaido of all people doing as much and you can't? You a whole real person? You engaging with the wrong media. (As an aside, this is also why I literally had to mass unfollow a number of "bigger" One Piece reactors and content creators recently; what used to just be fun side or "abridged" reads turned extremely gross and very transparently "worst part of high school anime club dialed up to 11 because we have big platforms" as you'd see the same talking points and casual gestures of ignorance almost everywhere else when discussing the contents after the fact on the net.)
The whole situation with Kiku and Yamato reeks of the worst kind of "anime head" types who want the ability to be titillated without fearing for their "masculinity" (Yamato's case) or to casually make light of transness as a whole because they still live in the era where the "trap" slur was peak internet funny (it never was; Kiku's case). Never mind the fact that they're two of the best wholly new characters in the series to date.
The topic has come up multiple times over the course of the series' run and there are so many clashing aspects that make me feel like Oda just has too many things going on and hasn't been able to come back to things to address them with a more modern lens. The more prominent Okamas, as previously mentioned, are hyper caricatured and almost derogatory depictions of gay/trans spectrum individuals just looking at them on first introduction, but then our first real introduction to their culture/society showed variances and nuances in their design with some adopting the "wacky makeup big 'man' faced" designs and others (while background) being more akin to the normie humans and figures in their world showing that Oda's aware that there's degrees to this or more bluntly that all them gays aren't just weirdos. Given the inspirations and influences he had (Rocky Horror Picture Show & visiting actual okama bars with friends), I can see why the exaggerated designs happened the way they did. The man then goes the extra step and the major named figures who we were to care about are some of his strongest character writing (Bon Clay) or solidly capable individuals with an impact and importance that persists to this day while possessing character and pride in themselves and what they are/do (Inazuma/Ivankov) and at one point, I thought that was a pretty rad thing to do in a story about chasing freedoms and dreams with people from all walks of life.
All of this however goes out the window when one of the core most figures of the story in Sanji still adopts a persona that outright views them with contempt and its supposed to be funny because "haha womanizer go brr". I'm still low key very pensive of whenever he has to have a formal meeting with Kiku and Yamato in current time knowing what we do now and I say this as someone still waiting for that trigger moment that forces real growth and a changed mindset in how he approaches both the opposite sex and individuals with different gender expressions.
During Impel Down when a lot of this was first being presented (yes I know Bon Clay existed from as early as pre-Alabasta but ID was the first big look at the Okama Way and culture), I always felt like it would have been better nuance to also have more prominent character rep outside of that culture with a more subdued design and philosophy alongside them. Kiku and Yamato both feel like attempts at those answers and I feel kinda positive given things like the previously mentioned in universe means with which everyone refers to them so far and the way they are embraced. You could say this is the honeymoon period because its pirates mostly (plus a culture [Wano] that seems to be open minded about it) doing whatever they want though and that'd be fair too.
I rambled a bit here but it's been on my mind for a while and I didn't know how to structure everything lol. TL;DR Don't be gross and let 'em rock. Fuck people/places that can't do the barest minimum.
The whole situation with Kiku and Yamato reeks of the worst kind of "anime head" types who want the ability to be titillated without fearing for their "masculinity" (Yamato's case) or to casually make light of transness as a whole because they still live in the era where the "trap" slur was peak internet funny (it never was; Kiku's case). Never mind the fact that they're two of the best wholly new characters in the series to date.
The topic has come up multiple times over the course of the series' run and there are so many clashing aspects that make me feel like Oda just has too many things going on and hasn't been able to come back to things to address them with a more modern lens. The more prominent Okamas, as previously mentioned, are hyper caricatured and almost derogatory depictions of gay/trans spectrum individuals just looking at them on first introduction, but then our first real introduction to their culture/society showed variances and nuances in their design with some adopting the "wacky makeup big 'man' faced" designs and others (while background) being more akin to the normie humans and figures in their world showing that Oda's aware that there's degrees to this or more bluntly that all them gays aren't just weirdos. Given the inspirations and influences he had (Rocky Horror Picture Show & visiting actual okama bars with friends), I can see why the exaggerated designs happened the way they did. The man then goes the extra step and the major named figures who we were to care about are some of his strongest character writing (Bon Clay) or solidly capable individuals with an impact and importance that persists to this day while possessing character and pride in themselves and what they are/do (Inazuma/Ivankov) and at one point, I thought that was a pretty rad thing to do in a story about chasing freedoms and dreams with people from all walks of life.
All of this however goes out the window when one of the core most figures of the story in Sanji still adopts a persona that outright views them with contempt and its supposed to be funny because "haha womanizer go brr". I'm still low key very pensive of whenever he has to have a formal meeting with Kiku and Yamato in current time knowing what we do now and I say this as someone still waiting for that trigger moment that forces real growth and a changed mindset in how he approaches both the opposite sex and individuals with different gender expressions.
During Impel Down when a lot of this was first being presented (yes I know Bon Clay existed from as early as pre-Alabasta but ID was the first big look at the Okama Way and culture), I always felt like it would have been better nuance to also have more prominent character rep outside of that culture with a more subdued design and philosophy alongside them. Kiku and Yamato both feel like attempts at those answers and I feel kinda positive given things like the previously mentioned in universe means with which everyone refers to them so far and the way they are embraced. You could say this is the honeymoon period because its pirates mostly (plus a culture [Wano] that seems to be open minded about it) doing whatever they want though and that'd be fair too.
I rambled a bit here but it's been on my mind for a while and I didn't know how to structure everything lol. TL;DR Don't be gross and let 'em rock. Fuck people/places that can't do the barest minimum.
i don't read Attack on Titan, so the joke/reference is lost on me.
EDIT: maybe my "it's irrelevant" threw what i meant off. what i mean is that Sanji being traumatized doesn't matter. Oda still chose to portray LGBT as predatory.
The issue with that was sort of two fold in a way .
You had Sanji who wanted there recipes so he had to fight them.
They in turn they would dress him up if he lost so he ran while trying to do it because of there numbers.
So you have both him and them look bad in certain ways .
I also am aware that Oda like to troll Sanji and that was pat of it .
It was in poor taste but all of it in context of the manga .
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Yes. Oda did two jokes in poor taste at the same time in the name of bathroom panic.
I don't know how anyone could look at the Okama stuff from any arc and be like, "yes yes, this is not only okay, it's funny!"
We can dream that it was all Oda's 15-year long set-up for the ultimate character arc for Sanji where he learns he needs to accept all the inhabitants of Momoiro Island as they are, teams up with Ivankov to break Bon Clay out of Impel Down, and finally brushes his bangs to the side and pulls off an Ultimate Mascara Death Wink during the final war.
But it probably won't be.
knowing sanji, even if he reach that point he probably say something like, "everboyd needs acceptance, even monsters like you"
>_>
so long as SHE has a pair of big tits, a nice plump ass and a smooth-skinned curvy body, SHE is a FEMALE, keep your creepy ass agendas to yourselves, just because one person, whether they be a character in the series or a real person, calls her a male simply because she wants to be Oden, DOES NOT MEAN SHE IS MALE, science bitches, the tits, the ass, the body and the female voice that she'll obviously have when the anime catches up, DICTATES that she is indeed a female, get your creepy opinions and personal agendas the fuck outta here, she is scientifically classed as a female, no matter whether she or anyone else thinks she's male, SHE IS A FEMALE, so stop being creepy and get it through your thick skulls already ffs
found this post.
so we are all creeps for accepting yamato as he identifies himself.
but he is obviously a woman because he has a big pair of tits and a nice ass.
anime fans were a mistake
Lots of people found it funny back in the day .
I did to until i really think about it overall and saw how poor taste it was .
So far he has been better with that stuff so i hope it's in the past .
OP
OP
I kinda feel like this was supposed to be what Inazuma was for. Not outside the culture, obviously, but a contrast to Ivankov. They've got a quirky design, but it's quirky in the "One Piece normal person" way and not the "abnormal even in universe" way Ivankov's is.
Basically the Robin of Ivankov's group.
If we put aside the "I'm Oden" bit tho I really love how Yamato identifies as male but doesn't like, try to "look male," as it were, it's the kind of trans representation I'm not used to seeing, usually it's "looks female identifies female but was born male" or the opposite, it's cool to see a character that just looks how they look.
I've only lurked AP a couple of times, so while the name sounds familiar, I'm not sure who Shift is. Sucks that someone like that is a mod over there.
It's depressing how there can be some people who are fans of a manga that teaches acceptance, equality, and freedom of identity, but will completely not accept or even try to accept the identities of trans characters in the manga.
Like, these same folks will love Bon Clay, but don't want to use the proper pronouns for Yamato or Kiku.
However, and I've said this before in the OT, I don't want to pat Oda on the back just yet because there's still a strong chance that Kiku and Yamato could be treated poorly by the end of the arc. I don't like having to admit it, but Oda is very wishy-washy with how he portrays LGBTQ+ characters.
I want to say it's gotten better, but it's so difficult to tell when One Piece still sticks strongly to gender norms and gender tropes for the most part.
It's depressing how there can be some people who are fans of a manga that teaches acceptance, equality, and freedom of identity, but will completely not accept or even try to accept the identities of trans characters in the manga.
Like, these same folks will love Bon Clay, but don't want to use the proper pronouns for Yamato or Kiku.
However, and I've said this before in the OT, I don't want to pat Oda on the back just yet because there's still a strong chance that Kiku and Yamato could be treated poorly by the end of the arc. I don't like having to admit it, but Oda is very wishy-washy with how he portrays LGBTQ+ characters.
I want to say it's gotten better, but it's so difficult to tell when One Piece still sticks strongly to gender norms and gender tropes for the most part.
that seems like a logical path, but we haven't gotten any indication one way or another yet
Also I just gotta say fuck transphobes. Just because Yamato has the outward appearance of an attractive young woman doesn't mean he's not a man.
OP
OP
God where did you find this?
Yeah people just see what they want to see with Yamato ignoring his own words and everyones elses
Huh? I just got done rereading Fishman Island with some people going through it for the first time recently and that never happened. Sanji was completely unconscious due to blood loss and it happened while he was out, there was never a rejection about it by him, even afterward.
while i do admit i got the order wrong (my bad, i havent read the arc again in a while) i wouldn't say that face when he discovers who donated the blood is the most accepting thing.Huh? I just got done rereading Fishman Island with some people going through it for the first time recently and that never happened. Sanji was completely unconscious due to blood loss and it happened while he was out, there was never a rejection about it by him, even afterward.
Discussion guidelines
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Given the current One Piece arc (if you are unaware a few different trans characters have been introduced), a discussion on trans representation in the series is incredibly important to have and timely. As is a discussion on the acceptance of said characters by the series' fanbase. However, we do ask people to avoid engaging in off-site drama. By off-site drama we mean going onto other sites/forums and digging up posts made by users to gawk at. We can have this discussion without signal boosting the bigotry and ignorance of the worst parts of the fanbase.
OP
OP
agreed, I like alot of Fishmen Island but there are bits like this that are rough
Oh yeah, Sanji definitely doesn't like this turn of events that happened while he was out, but it's not outright rejecting their blood because of who they are. All in all, though, it's a poor taste joke, but it doesn't torpedo Sanji as a character or the themes of the arc.
To be honest with you, that's how I took it too but then when I was introducing a bunch of friends to the series and we reached that point together, one of them (a gay male) very strongly felt bothered enough even by Inazuma to basically throw the whole thing out and since I don't identify as particularly gay or trans myself, I could only take it as "not normal enough actually".
OP
OP
Thank you for this OP. I've been lurking/posting infrequently on Arlong Park for about 10 years now (I also lurk in the OT here lol), and it really upset me seeing users post in the threads (Shift included) when Yamato got introduced doing all these mental gymnastics to justify using using she/her pronouns for a character that is unanimously referred to in-text with he/him. And now with his self-affirmation in this most recent chapter, Yamato has smashed a hole in the "wants to be Oden so using masc pronouns but actually woman" bullshit. It's really kind of unreal how people can engage with One Piece, whose themes and emotional backbone revolve are freedom to be who you are and live your truth, and then that just turn around and be transphobic.
to the topic of One Piece's recent trans representation, on a personal note I've found a lot of comfort in it. I'm doing a lot of reflection/questioning of my own gender identity recently, so it's been very meaningful to me seeing something I love as much as One Piece make strides, address my biggest long standing critique, and introduce two powerful and compelling trans characters who are played completely straight in the text. Like Kiku and Yamato both just received great character moments, with Kiku shrugging of her injury and Yamato making his declaration and defending Momo and Shinobu. It reads to me as a deliberate effort on Oda's part this arc to be better, especially with him highlighting the distinction between gender expression and identity, and even if it doesn't erase the series history of problematic representation, progress and change are refreshing.
as an aside, I'll be over the moon if Yamato joins the crew (and I think the set up may in fact be there, and rarely have I bought into the "x for crewmate" campaigns)
to the topic of One Piece's recent trans representation, on a personal note I've found a lot of comfort in it. I'm doing a lot of reflection/questioning of my own gender identity recently, so it's been very meaningful to me seeing something I love as much as One Piece make strides, address my biggest long standing critique, and introduce two powerful and compelling trans characters who are played completely straight in the text. Like Kiku and Yamato both just received great character moments, with Kiku shrugging of her injury and Yamato making his declaration and defending Momo and Shinobu. It reads to me as a deliberate effort on Oda's part this arc to be better, especially with him highlighting the distinction between gender expression and identity, and even if it doesn't erase the series history of problematic representation, progress and change are refreshing.
as an aside, I'll be over the moon if Yamato joins the crew (and I think the set up may in fact be there, and rarely have I bought into the "x for crewmate" campaigns)
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Because Sanji is shit, when Oda writes him he writes like a 14 year old boy who wasn't raised right, and OP would be 10x better if he didn't exist.
After Yamato was introduced, OP Reddit became a shit show. I'm so disappointed with the fanbase, looks like people can only accept LGBTQ+ characters (like Bonclay and Iva) if they are funny and make jokes. The moment someone 'serious' is introduced, it's over.
Bleach had a trans girl character that was a somewhat prominent villain at the end.
Giselle was pretty fun but man were there a lot of unfortunate implications on how Giselle was framed and how the "heroes" talked to her.
I think Yumichika even said that she smelled like cum.
Giselle was pretty fun but man were there a lot of unfortunate implications on how Giselle was framed and how the "heroes" talked to her.
I think Yumichika even said that she smelled like cum.
that whole exchange with Yumichika was super gross in how it treated Trans individualsBleach had a trans girl character that was a somewhat prominent villain at the end.
Giselle was pretty fun but man were there a lot of unfortunate implications on how Giselle was framed and how the "heroes" talked to her.
I think Yumichika even said that she smelled like cum.
Lmao.
I like how they think that every woman is like that.
Porn was a mistake.
OP always had questionable elements so its good to see Oda actually trying to improve (seemingly anyway).
These new characters seem still in his notorious 1 absurd body type he draws for all women.
These new characters seem still in his notorious 1 absurd body type he draws for all women.
I'm only adjacently familiar with OP due to friends, so I'm no where near caught up. But reading original poster's explanations on the character and now your Spoiler, I guess these "fans" want Yamato to be OP's version of FSN Saber. A "waifu" that just happens to use male pronouns.
Mistake, indeed.
Bleach had a trans girl character that was a somewhat prominent villain at the end.
Giselle was pretty fun but man were there a lot of unfortunate implications on how Giselle was framed and how the "heroes" talked to her.
I think Yumichika even said that she smelled like cum.
You thought right. It was an awful exchange.
It definitely didn't help that even as a villain, she was rather horrendous. The abuse she dishes out to Bambietta after turning her into a zombie and basically playing off the "i'm crazy" trope was just........ :|
I love Kiku, and I prefer to use he/him pronouns for Yamato. Looks pretty clear to me that's the intent.
Also, regarding Sanji, Pudding was AMAZING for him. Really changed the character in my view (I used to despise Sanji).
Also, regarding Sanji, Pudding was AMAZING for him. Really changed the character in my view (I used to despise Sanji).
Well, with the existence of Okama kenpo and Sanji's adventures on the Okama island i thought Oda was building up to something like this, tbh.
It could still happen, tbh. If there's a manga that can pull it off is this one.
Sanji's character did turn into trash after the timeskip, but there's still time for redemption.
This is the main reason why most people wonder that is Yamato a Trans Character? So Far Right now, Yamato's seem very admires Oden than Kaido.
Yamato's even claiming Momo to be his son since he Oden Now. Which makes Luffy Very Annoying.
I don't read OP that much anymore, but in reading this topic, I did check out Yamato's OP wiki page.
It explicitly misgenders Yamato by calling him Kaido's daughter, but then tries to hide it by refusing to use pronouns through his entire entry. So whenever it has to refer to the character, it just keeps saying "Yamato did this" or "Yamato said that". No other character article does this.
So you probably want to add whoever does the OP wiki to the shitlist.
It explicitly misgenders Yamato by calling him Kaido's daughter, but then tries to hide it by refusing to use pronouns through his entire entry. So whenever it has to refer to the character, it just keeps saying "Yamato did this" or "Yamato said that". No other character article does this.
So you probably want to add whoever does the OP wiki to the shitlist.
OP
OP
100%. Sanji has dragged the manga's gender politics back to the dark ages since day one.
Tbh, after Whole Cake and the last few chapters I think there's hope for Sanji
He said he would be "looking for women", but he appeared to save Momonosuke/Shinobu from Kaido so it was a lie. Right after he mentioned Ulti but continued to run with Luffy to Kaido.
I think that at the very least, it will never be as bad as Fishman Island.
Oda's representation of the topic is spotty at best and I don't think Yamato's situation is very clear. I still don't know which pronoun is correct because of the way Yamato is portrayed (which is why I will just use they/them for now, hope that is fine).
Being Trans is usually not coupled with being a whole different character and Yamato acts as if they are Oden. So I can see why people are confused and I don't think every use of "she" should be seen as misgendering Yamato on purpose. Additionally, in the latest chapter they even announce "I go by another name (than Oden) too, I'm Yamato", adding to the mess. But that of course doesn't excuse all of the other shitty stuff OP mentioned where transphobia is definitely on display. It's sad to see the some of the biggest gathering places of OP fandom are that toxic.
Kaido labelling Yamato his son is definitely the biggest argument in favor of Yamato being trans but I'm still not sure if that is truly what Oda means to portray here. It would be a positive surprise if so because it is handled quite ok (except for the Oden confusion) and "ok" would be a big step up compared to Bon Clay and Ivankov, I think...
Being Trans is usually not coupled with being a whole different character and Yamato acts as if they are Oden. So I can see why people are confused and I don't think every use of "she" should be seen as misgendering Yamato on purpose. Additionally, in the latest chapter they even announce "I go by another name (than Oden) too, I'm Yamato", adding to the mess. But that of course doesn't excuse all of the other shitty stuff OP mentioned where transphobia is definitely on display. It's sad to see the some of the biggest gathering places of OP fandom are that toxic.
Kaido labelling Yamato his son is definitely the biggest argument in favor of Yamato being trans but I'm still not sure if that is truly what Oda means to portray here. It would be a positive surprise if so because it is handled quite ok (except for the Oden confusion) and "ok" would be a big step up compared to Bon Clay and Ivankov, I think...
It isn't unclear at all:
- Yamato and others all view himself as Kaido's son. Kaido and the Beast Pirates all adhere to this. They also know what he looks like without the mask, so that argument can't be used either.
- They consistently call him "young master", a term used exclusively for young men
- Luffy gave him an explicitly masculine nickname:
- Since we knew of the character's existence, no character so far has used feminine pronouns for the character. The official release has only been using masculine pronouns to refer to him.
- Any character's issue with Yamato viewing himself as Oden has been made separate from them respecting Yamato's gender identity, including Luffy.
- Even in the latest chapter this week where Yamato states his given name, he's still using masculine pronouns according to translators, so it's not just some identity he slips out of when convenient.
Fact of the matter is that Oda has not been ambiguous at all since making us aware of the character, before and after the reveal. He could've handled the text box thing better for sure, but even then, people are just simply in denial here.