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Snake Eater

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,385
Right now I can tell you I will not vote for Biden, Democrats need to step up and replace him

glad to know the DNC is sending the message that Trump used "don't believe the victim"
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
glad to know the DNC is sending the message that Trump used "don't believe the victim"
We are in this situation because voters picked Biden. I wanted Warren but that was not to be. DNC has no real sway or power over who the nominees are. They can't tell voters who to vote for or tell the delegates who to pick.

We don't have super delegates anymore, there is no real apparatus for a party to over-rule voters/delegates. Biden's delegates would have to decide to mass vote for someone else at the convention.
 

Chrome Hyena

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,768
We are in this situation because voters picked Biden. DNC has no real sway or power over who the nominees are. They can't tell voters who to vote for or tell the delegates who to pick.
Thank you. Bernie lost because he bet the farm on young people who talked all that shit on Twitter about a "revolution", even had me believing, but then couldn't even be bothered to vote. They want to be the base but don't want to put in the work. So the actual base went out and voted.

Don't blame the DNC, blame young people for not voting.
 

kubev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,533
California
The Republicans represent an existential threat to the wellbeing of millions of vulnerable Americans in a way the Democrats simply do not, even a Democrat like Joe Biden.
While Republicans exist as a threat against the vulnerable, I feel as though Democrats leave people vulnerable, especially with regard to homelessness and illegal immigration. That said, I know many people won't agree with me, as I've brought this up time and time again, but people need to care more about the quality of both parties. I don't necessarily mean the Democratic and Republican parties as they currently exist, but we need the two main parties to be better, and the split between the parties need to be different.

If you let a train wreck like Trump dominate the Republican side of things, then expect the Democratic side to take a dip, as well. For too long, people have had to vote against something, rather than for something. Frankly, while it'll likely hand the election to Trump, I really do think the best course of action in general is to vote for the best candidate by voting for a third party if Biden and Trump are the two main options, even if that candidate doesn't have a snowball's chance in Hell of winning (largely due to the Electoral College). I'd like to think that this happening enough will open someone's eyes and create more of a push to get better candidates in place. We shouldn't have to settle for mediocrity out of the "good" candidate. Plus, third-party candidates will never be viable until more people vote for them, and it's terrible that a vote for any candidate should be considered a wasted vote in that sense.
 

Snake Eater

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,385
We are in this situation because voters picked Biden. I wanted Warren but that was not to be. DNC has no real sway or power over who the nominees are. They can't tell voters who to vote for or tell the delegates who to pick.

We don't have super delegates anymore, there is no real apparatus for a party to over-rule voters/delegates.

you're saying the DNC has no influence on who the nominee is?

twitter.com

Howard Dean on Twitter

“This story may or may not be true but it’s from the intercept which 1) is often not credible 2) was started by Glenn Greenwald who helped Assange and Putin undermine the 2016 election. I tend to believe victims but skeptical about sources like this.They are the Fox of the left...

DNC - "Believe women! When politically convenient"
 

Deleted member 6949

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,786
The people who are responding to this by making it about Biden and Trump are being disingenuous. The primary is still going. Biden still has time to do the right thing and step down. There is still time to have a non-rapist president, but it won't happen if you assholes keep chanting "Vote Biden No Matter Whoden"
 

Snake Eater

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,385
The people who are responding to this by making it about Biden and Trump are being disingenuous. The primary is still going. Biden still has time to do the right thing and step down. There is still time to have a non-rapist president, but it won't happen if you assholes keep chanting "Vote Biden No Matter Whoden"

Which rapist is better? I'm sorry but I will not participate in that kind of election and I'm sure many will feel the same way
 

SmokeMaxX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,336
The people who are responding to this by making it about Biden and Trump are being disingenuous. The primary is still going. Biden still has time to do the right thing and step down. There is still time to have a non-rapist president, but it won't happen if you assholes keep chanting "Vote Biden No Matter Whoden"
I promise you that basically noone gives a shit about Biden. If Sanders can win the majority of delegates, I'm sure a vast majority of the Democratic party will vote for him (whether enthusiastically or not). The problem is that he's shown no evidence of being able to do so. Again, I'm completely okay with getting Trump out of office and forcing Biden to step down immediately. The people talking about Trump vs. Biden are making an assumption about the state of the race in November and (so far) nothing seems likely to change that inevitable choice.
 

Chrome Hyena

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,768
The people who are responding to this by making it about Biden and Trump are being disingenuous. The primary is still going. Biden still has time to do the right thing and step down. There is still time to have a non-rapist president, but it won't happen if you assholes keep chanting "Vote Biden No Matter Whoden"
Its not disingenuous. Bernie has not captured the base of the democratic party on either Super Tuesday. this supposed voting base he was going to turn out never showed. The people who DID turn out in record numbers were the actual base of the party and they overwhelmingly voted for Joe Biden. Simple as that.

Bernie had two times to prove he was viable and failed both times. Those are the facts.
 

Mr_Antimatter

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,571
I'll put it like this.

My mother is a rape victim, multiple times through her life. She's still voting for him, as she did for Clinton (whom she's still a fan of).

Why? Because Accusations are different from being a proven fact, especially during an election year when the opponent is a proven rapist and serial womanizer. The fact that none of the major news agencies, even conservative ones, are running with this is also very suspect.

Should we believe his accuser? Yes, the claim warents investigation. Should we rush to declare guilt and treat it as 100% fact? Lets wait for more evidence to come out.

But like my mother, unless proven or colaberated i'll still vote for him no matter what. The consequences of doing otherwise are just too extreme to bare.
 

learning

Member
Jan 4, 2019
708
I've struggled a lot over the past 10 years trying to accept the mess that is the real world, where there are no perfect answers to complex issues. Lately I've arrived at a two-prong value system:

1. My goal on Earth is to ease suffering.
2. I will always strive to do that the best I reasonably can within the circumstances I'm given.

I already voted in the primary (not for Biden). From now until the general election I will consider every day how I can do the most good to ease the most suffering in the most people, within reason, even if my options or my choices are not perfect.
Thank you

I have the same philosophy. Take the action that will have the most benefit for all at whatever moment you're in
 
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Snake Eater

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,385
And where has pragmatism gotten us? We're now careening into a situation where we're voting between two rapists. If everyone were idealistic, we'd have Sanders vs Trump.

Pragmatism can choke on my entire ass.

Exactly, this is what the moderate safe pick has gotten us.

By the time November hits, and after months and months of Republican smear campaign pointing out this controversy and the Ukraine controversy, people in this country are going to look at Biden as someone who is slightly less corrupt and immoral than Trump. But Trump will be the one that's "open about it" and he'll win easily
 

daschysta

Member
Mar 24, 2019
884
I hope I don't have to vote for Joe. Hopefully something (Non life threatening) happens to him that renders him unable to run and we get to vote for someone else.
 

alexiswrite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,418
Exactly, this is what the moderate safe pick has gotten us.

By the time November hits, and after months and months of Republican smear campaign pointing out this controversy and the Ukraine controversy, people in this country are going to look at Biden as someone who is slightly less corrupt and immoral than Trump. But Trump will be the one that's "open about it" and he'll win easily

Electoral Politics exists on more than just a singular policy line between moderate and progressive. There are a ton of reasons why people vote for who they vote for.

Also, Using an unforseen event like this as a way to push the idea that your policy ideas are best for Electoral Politics makes legit no sense at all. These are not linked things. If Biden had the most progressive policy ideas, that wouldn't make him immune from this.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,382
The premise of this thread fails to take into account the fact that the likelihood that any individual's vote affects the outcome of the election is infinitesimally small. Everyone who understands basic math is voting primarily for some other reason, such as expression of identity, desire to participate in the process, years of being told it's a civic duty, etc. That, in addition to the fact that it doesn't work, is why trying to shame someone into voting for Biden by waving around Ginsburg's departure or kids in cages is utterly foolish.
 

SmokeMaxX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,336
The premise of this thread fails to take into account the fact that the likelihood that any individual's vote affects the outcome of the election is infinitesimally small. Everyone who understands basic math is voting primarily for some other reason, such as expression of identity, desire to participate in the process, years of being told it's a civic duty, etc. That, in addition to the fact that it doesn't work, is why trying to shame someone into voting for Biden by waving around Ginsburg's departure or kids in cages is utterly foolish.
This is roughly equivalent to being told your vote doesn't matter. And uhh... your vote does matter. Elections are won and lost by telling people to not vote.
 

steejee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,605
I'm not voting for Biden, I'm voting for the qualified government technocrats, lifetime appointment federal judges, non-sychophant DoJ, restoration of cripple departments like the EPA, CDC, etc, and maybe a qualified whoever that gets picked as VP to potentially take control at some point.

A vote for Biden is a vote for an entire government of people, not just for one person. Not voting is acceptance that you're okay with Trump winning and all the horrors on this country he'd (and his lackies) inflict upon a re-election, not least of which a guarantee that the Federal Government would do absolutely nothing to combat Climate Change for another 4 years, all but ensuring that we will fail to take any meaningful action before it's too late to stem the worst effects.
 
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yogurt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,803
The premise of this thread fails to take into account the fact that the likelihood that any individual's vote affects the outcome of the election is infinitesimally small. Everyone who understands basic math is voting primarily for some other reason, such as expression of identity, desire to participate in the process, years of being told it's a civic duty, etc. That, in addition to the fact that it doesn't work, is why trying to shame someone into voting for Biden by waving around Ginsburg's departure or kids in cages is utterly foolish.
This is completely untrue for state and local elections. The fear is that when people aren't interested in the election at the top of the ballot they will abstain from voting altogether.

There are a zillion instances of a single vote changing a local election. Here in VA three years ago the election for a state legislative seat that determined control of the state house was tied. They drew lots to determine the winner and the Republicans maintained control for 2 more years.

Literally one more vote for the Democrat in that district would have flipped the entire state house.

Also I grew up in Florida through the 2000 election, where less than 1,000 votes gave the entire country George W Bush (and a bullshit supreme Court decision, of course).
 

bdbdbd

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,902
Anyone with unresolved accusations of rape/sexual assault shouldn't be allowed to run for the presidency, full stop. Republicans obviously don't care, but the Dems have one chance to do the right thing, start a proper, thorough investigation and either clear him or take him off the ticket and replace him.

What really frustrates me here is that the allegation isn't really new news: someone among the former/current candidates should have brought this up before now and demanded that it be properly addressed. Do the same thing Warren did to Bloomberg.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,382
This is roughly equivalent to being told your vote doesn't matter. And uhh... your vote does matter. Elections are won and lost by telling people to not vote.

Uhhhh, one individual's vote actually is very very very unlikely to matter. That's just math, and all the nuh-uhing in the world will not change it. Vote shaming is a decent argument if you are speaking to a wide audience. If you're talking to one person, it makes no sense. So not only is this tactic ineffective, it's fallacious.

This is completely untrue for state and local elections. The fear is that when people aren't interested in the election at the top of the ballot they will abstain from voting altogether.

There are a zillion instances of a single vote changing a local election. Here in VA three years ago the election for a state legislative seat that determined control of the state house was tied. They drew lots to determine the winner and the Republicans maintained control for 2 more years.

Literally one more vote for the Democrat in that district would have flipped the entire state house.

Also I grew up in Florida through the 2000 election, where less than 1,000 votes gave the entire country George W Bush (and a bullshit supreme Court decision, of course).

(1) Joe Biden, the subject of this thread, is not running in any state or local election that I'm aware of.

(2) You're correct Florida was decided by 400 votes. Not one. That's my point. If you're talking to one individual, as people who wave RBG's future corpse around here tend to do, pretending their vote affects the outcome is just that, playing pretend.
 

Loud Wrong

Member
Feb 24, 2020
13,894
I will vote for anyone who isn't Trump. No ifs ands or buts. The Supreme Court is infinitely more important than who occupies the White House.
 

Mona

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
26,151
Anyone with unresolved accusations of rape/sexual assault shouldn't be allowed to run for the presidency, full stop. Republicans obviously don't care

they care when the person has a D next to their name, and i think we'll all get a clear look of that in the coming months
 
Jan 11, 2018
9,653
This is roughly equivalent to being told your vote doesn't matter. And uhh... your vote does matter. Elections are won and lost by telling people to not vote.

Not the presidential election. You're telling me my vote for president matters when the electoral college exists, and I live in Illinois, where we have voted blue for the last 30 years by huge margins?
 

Klotera

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,550
The way I see it (and this is true no matter what election it is) is that once the two nominees are set, one of the two WILL become president. An abstention will not change that. Even a third party vote won't.

Given that hard fact, there is no issue of conscience in voting. If it's guaranteed that one of the two will win, the only thing abstaining does is give away your right to have a say in which one it is. You're not endorsing any behavior by exercising that right.

Most importantly, at the end of the day, you're not just voting for Biden, you're voting for a Supreme Court seat that will almost certainly open up, and that will last long past a presidency. If Trump gets another Supreme Court pick and continues to pack the rest of the courts, the damage will last a generation. Your chance at progressive policies, even if a progressive candidate wins in the future, is essentially gone.

The saddest part of this (outside of Joe being a fucking rapist and his victim getting no justice) is that we began this process with a massive field of candidates and almost all of them were better than Joe Biden.

Warren, Bernie, Booker, Harris…so many fucking choices and yet this Party lands on Biden.

Just…depressing.

The wide field might have been the very reason that we ended up here. The debates should have been scaled back way earlier than they were, so the field would effectively be narrowed and a Biden alternative for those who didn't think Bernie was the right candidate might have had a better shot.
 

yogurt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,803
(1) Joe Biden, the subject of this thread, is not running in any state or local election that I'm aware of.

(2) You're correct Florida was decided by 400 votes. Not one. That's my point. If you're talking to one individual, as people who wave RBG's future corpse around here tend to do, pretending their vote affects the outcome is just that, playing pretend.

As I said:
The fear is that when people aren't interested in the election at the top of the ballot they will abstain from voting altogether.
ergo not voting for president means they also won't vote in the state and local elections where their one vote DOES matter.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,382
As I said:

ergo not voting for president means they also won't vote in the state and local elections where their one vote DOES matter.

Then advocate they vote downballot instead of pretending that the world is other than it is and that if they don't vote the SC will swing. Voting for president is an expressive act, not a practical one.
 

yogurt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,803
Then advocate they vote downballot instead of pretending that the world is other than it is and that if they don't vote the SC will swing. Voting for president is an expressive act, not a practical one.
I have not advocated one way or the other in this thread. I was merely responding to your assertion that one vote doesn't matter by pointing out that a commonly held fear is that folks who don't care for the top of the ballot also won't vote in elections where their one vote does matter. Those elections also often have a bigger impact on our day to day lives!

I don't think we disagree here, I was just making a clarification. Apologies for the confusion.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,382
I have not advocated one way or the other in this thread. I was merely responding to your assertion that one vote doesn't matter by pointing out that a commonly held fear is that folks who don't care for the top of the ballot also won't vote in elections where their one vote does matter. Those elections also often have a bigger impact on our day to day lives!

I don't think we disagree here, I was just making a clarification. Apologies for the confusion.

Agreed, no apology necessary.
 

Ushojax

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,927
Just because people are willing to vote for Biden doesn't make them blind to his failings. The phones we are typing these posts on are made using conflict minerals, the t-shirts we are wearing were stitched by children in Bangladesh, the films we are streaming on Netflix are full of actors and directors who have done disgusting things. The world is a sordid place and by merely participating in normal society anyone who considers themselves ethical is a hypocrite.

In an ideal world Biden would withdraw his candidacy but we do not live in an ideal world. We have to be pragmatic. If it's a choice between Trump and the Republican machine vs Biden and the Democratic one, I'll vote for the latter. If I refused to vote at all, the only beneficiary would be the Republican Party.
 

DekuBleep

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,712
User Banned (2 Weeks): Victim blaming, whataboutism
There are many allegations against Trump also.

I do wonder about the timing of this allegation to come to light after the nomination is all but almost confirmed. I also want to trust people.

If I was given the choice between Biden and Trump, and I know that a no vote or a vote for a third party would make it more likely to elect Trump, then given the current state of the world with the pandemic response and everything else, I would vote for Biden.

I think it's more important to vote agains the modern Republican Party by voting for he most likely democrat to win, than it is to vote for the candidate that most represents your individual views.
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
There are many allegations against Trump also.

I do wonder about the timing of this allegation to come to light after the nomination is all but almost confirmed.
I also want to trust people.

If I was given the choice between Biden and Trump, and I know that a no vote or a vote for a third party would make it more likely to elect Trump, then given the current state of the world with the pandemic response and everything else, I would vote for Biden.

I think it's more important to vote agains the modern Republican Party by voting for he most likely democrat to win, than it is to vote for the candidate that most represents your individual views.

Please don't do this. Nobody - and especially somebody with a shaky history like Biden - is worth rolling back the small but profoundly important progress made in regards to believing sexual abuse/rape survivors.

The 'timing' argument is one of many that has been used again and again to discredit women who come forward months and even years after the fact and it is offensive and fallacious.
 

TheRuralJuror

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,499
I think it's beyond silly to not vote for president after four years of this guy. I also think anyone equating his potential presidency to trump is spouting foolishness of the highest degree, but at this point but if someone wants to be a knucklehead, that's on them, not worth fussing over anymore. On that note, we all don't need to know that you're staying home in every other topic but it is what it is. Folks will get whatever they deserve one way or the other come November.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
I'm not voting for Biden, I'm voting for the qualified government technocrats, lifetime appointment federal judges, non-sychophant DoJ, restoration of cripple departments like the EPA, CDC, etc, and maybe a qualified whoever that gets picked as VP to potentially take control at some point.

A vote for Biden is a vote for an entire government of people, not just for one person. Not voting is acceptance that you're okay with Trump winning and all the horrors on this country he'd (and his lackies) inflict upon a re-election, not least of which a guarantee that the Federal Government would do absolutely nothing to combat Climate Change for another 4 years, all but ensuring that we will fail to take any meaningful action before it's too late to stem the worst effects.
This is an excellent way to look at it.
 

bdbdbd

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,902
It's not really mind boggling. Their goal is to decrease Dem turnout and blasting this during the election would (rightfully) do that.
I'm just saying it's mind boggling from the standpoint that they haven't got a leg to stand on, this couldn't be a clearer case of the pot calling the kettle black. But of course they'll exploit anyway.
 

Mr_Antimatter

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,571
Uhhhh, one individual's vote actually is very very very unlikely to matter. That's just math, and all the nuh-uhing in the world will not change it. Vote shaming is a decent argument if you are speaking to a wide audience. If you're talking to one person, it makes no sense. So not only is this tactic ineffective, it's fallacious.



(1) Joe Biden, the subject of this thread, is not running in any state or local election that I'm aware of.

(2) You're correct Florida was decided by 400 votes. Not one. That's my point. If you're talking to one individual, as people who wave RBG's future corpse around here tend to do, pretending their vote affects the outcome is just that, playing pretend.

That sentiment makes no sense. Every one of those 400 votes was one vote. Each of the folks who stayed home thinking their votes don't matter add up to a lot of votes that indeed would have mattered. Trump would have lost in a landslide if folks had actually voted instead of accepting apathy.

That we see so much right wing fud encouraging peopel to protest vote / stay home is no coincidence. The right only wins because the left can't be bothered to vote when it's necessary.
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,522
I'm just saying it's mind boggling from the standpoint that they haven't got a leg to stand on, this couldn't be a clearer case of the pot calling the kettle black. But of course they'll exploit anyway.
Of course they don't, but their base doesn't care. You can't retort back with "Trump is the worse rapist" and expect it to have any impact cause the people that would have voted for Biden were never going to vote for Trump.
 

SmokeMaxX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,336
Uhhhh, one individual's vote actually is very very very unlikely to matter. That's just math, and all the nuh-uhing in the world will not change it. Vote shaming is a decent argument if you are speaking to a wide audience. If you're talking to one person, it makes no sense. So not only is this tactic ineffective, it's fallacious.



(1) Joe Biden, the subject of this thread, is not running in any state or local election that I'm aware of.

(2) You're correct Florida was decided by 400 votes. Not one. That's my point. If you're talking to one individual, as people who wave RBG's future corpse around here tend to do, pretending their vote affects the outcome is just that, playing pretend.
I'm not vote shaming anyone. I'm arguing the point that telling people their vote doesn't matter is a losing argument.
Not the presidential election. You're telling me my vote for president matters when the electoral college exists, and I live in Illinois, where we have voted blue for the last 30 years by huge margins?
Telling people their vote doesn't matter just increases voter apathy. You tell someone "what's the point of voting? It doesn't matter." Then they tell their friends. Then they tell their friends. And all of a sudden we live in a world where the youth doesn't vote. You can make the exact same argument that you're making if any election is decided by more than 1 vote. "Oh, even if I voted, that candidate still would have won by 1." Now it decreases our chances of winning swing states. Republicans are propagandized into believing they will literally die if they don't vote out the Democrats and then we wonder why all the old people who vote GOP do so at like 90% rates.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,985
Not the presidential election. You're telling me my vote for president matters when the electoral college exists, and I live in Illinois, where we have voted blue for the last 30 years by huge margins?

This post isn't a retort to why you don't want to vote, that's your choice and you're entitled to it as an American, not voting is as patriotic as voting in my opinion, but I'd like to make an appeal to why everybody should vote even if you don't want to:

Voting is as much an act of reflex, routine, and habit as it is motivated by belief that your vote is going to change something or that your individual vote will significantly affect some outcome. The habitual act of voting eventually, over time, has real outcomes, which is one reason why the elderly -- today's boomers -- consistently come out to vote and end up having an outsized influence on our political institutions vs. their actual demographic numbers. Social security is an untouchable political issue on both the right and left, despite that people pulling from social security and benefitting from it are a relatively small number of people, versus say something like the payroll tax. There are about 60mil people who receive some social security benefit each month, and there are about 200million people who pay some sort of payroll tax as working Americans. And yet, modifying social security is a third-rail issue in American politics, while the payroll tax is routinely modified through legislation, up and down, over administrations, it's often the first thing president's suggest to eliminate or drop during economic hardship and the first thing they raise during economic boomtimes.

The reason for this isn't only that the 200million American workers "take the long view" and know the value of social security -- if that were true then we'd have far more social benefit programs than we do -- but that voting is habitual for older Americans, and so even though they make up a minority of the electorate, the issues that are important to them end up having an outsized influence on our elections.

There are a lot of informed, engaged people who will rightly commit that "I will not vote in the presidential election but I will still vote down ballot," but the majority of Americans don't do this. Voter engagement increases in presidential elections: midterm elections might pull somewhere between 30-40% of the electorate, while presidential elections usually pull between 50-60%, and it's important for people to reinforce that habit of voting "even if your vote doesn't mean anything because Illinois has gone blue for the last 30 years." Because for every person who lives in deep blue Chicago who says that, shares that, or validates that opinion (where it probably doesn't really matter if you, an individual progressive, show up to vote as the city is likely going to be nominally progressive anyway), there's going to be another person outside of Chicago in the suburbs who might also feel the same way and have that opinion validated. Now, for president this probably doesn't matter that much, but for legislature, senate, and then the dozens of individual state races, city councils, school committees, individual ballot initiatives... this does matter.

2012 and Illinois is a good example of this. Obama easily carried the state of Illinois in 2012, his home state and a deeply blue Democratic state. Does your vote really matter if you abstained from voting for a moderate establishment Democrat? Not for president in Illinois. But, at the same time, turnout was down throughout most of Illinois and despite that there are far more Democrats in the state of Illinois than Republicans and that most districts throughout Illinois are blue-to-purple, Republicans won 11 congressional seats to 8 for Democrats. In 2010, a year with much lower turnout than 2012 predictable, it was worse, Republicans won 10 seats to Democrats 6. THis contributed to the Republican congress that prevented more progressive change throughout the country, and yet, by 2018, that flipped: Democrats took 11 seats, Republicans 7, which is why we Republicans didn't get to pass their Trump-resort-slush-fund bill this past week in response to COronavirus, it's why Trump is now an impeached president, it's why Americans laid off from their jobs can get a little more in their unemployment paycheck to feed their families and keep their heads above water, instead of starving or foreclosing on their homes.

For the engaged, informed voter, a call to voting even when you don't like the presidential candidate representing the party you intend to vote for doesn't really make that much of a difference: The engaged, inforrmed voter knows the value of voting in down-ballot races or issues. But most Americans are not engaged or informed; year over year, most Americans don't vote, with only a small majority voting in presidential elections, but a strong majoritty not voting in other years. If young progressives want to have the same impact on the electorate as old conservative boomers do, if they want their existential issues like green energy policy (something that arguably affects 320m Americans, as opposed to the minority of Americans affected by social security), they need to build the habit of voting. Voting is habitual and it is contagious. Progressive issues that are important to millennials (and remember, millennials now make up the single largest voting bloc by population in the US) will never be important issues to politicians akin to social security or medicare if Progressive millennials do not build the habit of voting. While external forces -- the DNC, the media, George Soros, or whoever -- can influence your habits (e.g., "If the DNC gave me a good candidate, THEN I'd build that habit"), the single best way to build a habit is to work on it on your own just like any other habits.
 

CrocM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,590
A lot of people here only care when the person has an R next to their name. Hypocrisy runs rampant in politics and it's pretty pathetic.
Hypocrisy is part of politics. You say one thing one year and are forced to do something opposite the next for the greater good. People who are staunchly idealistic and never waiver don't make good politicians.
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
Just because people are willing to vote for Biden doesn't make them blind to his failings. The phones we are typing these posts on are made using conflict minerals, the t-shirts we are wearing were stitched by children in Bangladesh, the films we are streaming on Netflix are full of actors and directors who have done disgusting things. The world is a sordid place and by merely participating in normal society anyone who considers themselves ethical is a hypocrite.

In an ideal world Biden would withdraw his candidacy but we do not live in an ideal world. We have to be pragmatic. If it's a choice between Trump and the Republican machine vs Biden and the Democratic one, I'll vote for the latter. If I refused to vote at all, the only beneficiary would be the Republican Party.

I'm voting for Biden to remove Trump but I also think it bears mentioning that pragmatism taken too far invariably allows for moral atrophy.

Even without the rape and sexual harassment allegations, Biden is a problematic candidate on a variety of fronts and what I find staggering is that we not only live in a nation that have given us a binary choice between two reprehensible individuals (even if Trump is very clearly worse) but that so many people – including so-called liberals – seem more than content with safe, status-quo candidates who continue to cede the power of this nation to the hands of the wealthy few.

People like the Clintons and Obama continue to be venerated as decent, moral human beings even when we have volumes of evidence to the contrary and that is largely because that pragmatism you cite – which admittedly I often practice as well – has allowed us to justify and largely ignore the decay of the Democratic Party by way of moral relativism. (I'm guilty of this myself)

So while I agree with you, I do so with a massive caveat attached because far too many people out there and in here don't really see Biden as a bad person. (And to be clear it seems obvious you do see him as the shit he is)
 

bdbdbd

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,902
Of course they don't, but their base doesn't care. You can't retort back with "Trump is the worse rapist" and expect it to have any impact cause the people that would have voted for Biden were never going to vote for Trump.
I understand all of this, doesn't make it any less mind-boggling(to me) that it can happen. Do I need to use a better term or something?
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis
do we really need to qualify the accusation as "credible" every single time? as if the vast majority of rape accusations are not credible?
If you're a major newspaper or news network? Yeah, you do. It's not about questioning her credibility or casting aspersion on her story. I have no reason to doubt the victim here, but even if all these CNN, NYT, Washington Post etc. reporters are sitting down and interviewing her right now and listening to her story, they can't just go "welp, she said it, case closed, put it on the front page."

Biden is being accused of a very serious crime, one that would definitively end his political career and ruin his public image irreparably (even if there are no legal ramifications, which given how long ago it happened, there might not be). Which, yeah, if this is true, it absolutely should. But conversely, there would be major ramifications for any journalist or publication with any kind of prestige who jumped the gun on this only for a major hole to be blown in her story later on that would allow Biden to spin it away as a political attack or something. Not only that, but it could also damage the credibility of future allegations that are better corroborated.

The story is still in its very early days, and it is absolutely not the kind of story that should be fucked up. Again, not questioning the truth of the story. But I am a humble ResetEra poster, and there are far bigger ramifications if a place like New York Times gets this story wrong than if this hole-in-the-wall Internet forum does.

(this is kind of meant more as a general response to the "why hasn't this story been picked up yet" sentiment in this thread, I realized upon re-reading you're talking about something else here)
 
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