On this day 80 years ago, Operation Barbarossa commenced.

Sean C. · Jun 22, 2021

On June 22, 1941, Adolf Hitler's Operation Barbarossa, the invasion of the Soviet Union and its occupied territories, commenced, initiating an apocalyptic clash between two of the 20th century's most brutal dictators that would involve the largest armies ever raised for warfare and claim tens of millions of lives, while reducing most of Europe from Moscow to Berlin into a pile of rubble. Countries would be redrawn, populations forever reshaped, and the national consciousness that would drive the next several decades of Soviet/Russian security policy forged.

People in western Europe and North America don't often pay much attention to significant anniversaries involving the eastern front, for various reasons, so reflect a bit on anyone who had the extreme misfortune to be caught up in what was arguably the single worst place to live at any point in the 20th century (and I'd say inarguably the worst at scale).

Tawpgun · Jun 22, 2021

talk shit get hit

TaySan · Jun 22, 2021

RIP to the millions that perished fighting evil.

Serpens007 · Jun 22, 2021

The biggest land offensive in the history of humanity, millions and millions of dead people as a result. And ultimately, the defeat of the nazis.

Here's a video (two parts) that covers it at incredible details. Despite everything pointing out that the invasion was coming (even the British showing the leaked documents to the USSR), the Soviets weren't expecting it.

Tawpgun · Jun 22, 2021

From a western education point of view, this graph is still a mindfuck.

Omegasquash · Jun 22, 2021

Serpens007 said:
Despite everything pointing out that the invasion was coming (even the British showing the leaked documents to the USSR), the Soviets weren't expecting it.

It's always near fascinating how Stalin refused to believe it until it happened. And I say "near" only because "fascinating" isn't a term I'm very comfortable with, considering the loss of life.

Lagspike_exe · Jun 22, 2021

Omegasquash said:
It's always near fascinating how Stalin refused to believe it until it happened. And I say "near" only because "fascinating" isn't a term I'm very comfortable with, considering the loss of life.

Because the invasion was strategically an insane move to make for the Nazi Germany. But Hitler's Nazi ideals kicked in and he made an irrational decision, which cost him his life and ruined Germany.

Anyway, hopefully we'll never have wars like this ever again. The sheer size of suffering and devastation are difficult to even comprehend.

OmegaProtocol · Jun 22, 2021

The Eastern Front was an nightmare. The Germans launched a literal war of annihilation. Millions were killed in mass shootings (Ninth Fort, Babi Yar), and the East was the site of most of the Holocaust, during operation Reinhard. The Nazis literally had roaming death squads with the sole purpose of killing Jews and other people deemed sub human.

To put that in perspective, 80 percent of all villages in Belarus were burned down. Think of the scene of the Nazis invading and burning down the village in "Come and See" happening over and over." Of course, that happened on the entire Eastern Front. Poland, as a nation, was absolutely destroyed.

Omegasquash · Jun 22, 2021

Lagspike_exe said:
Because the invasion was strategically an insane move to make for the Nazi Germany. But Hitler's Nazi ideals kicked in and he made an irrational decision, which cost him his life and ruined Germany.

Anyway, hopefully we'll never have wars like this ever again. The sheer size of suffering and devastation are difficult to even comprehend.

Exactly. Hitler had an agreement in place for how to divide territory with the Russians, trade agreements too. Stalin was arrogant for not believing Hitler would fuck him over like he did everyone else and, as you say, not thinking Hitler was egomaniacal/stupid enough to do it.

Akita One · Jun 22, 2021

People in western Europe and North America don't often pay much attention to significant anniversaries involving the eastern front

Huh? This is the opposite of the truth...literally every WW2 class and documentary gives extensive time to it...the only thing on the Western Front that really got attention is the Normandy invasion.

Sometime when people say "we don't learn this in school", I wonder if they ever went to school. People don't pay attention to one of the two biggest invasions and military turnarounds in history? This is like the bizarre thread the other day where "Americans think they freed the Jews from the Holocaust"...despite the fact that most concentration camps were in the Eastern front, and the ones the Americans did come across were mostly abandoned by the Germans by the time we got there (also, literally zero people think Stalin was ever friendly to Jewish people).

Because the invasion was strategically an insane move to make for the Nazi Germany. But Hitler's Nazi ideals kicked in and he made an irrational decision, which cost him his life and ruined Germany.

Eh not really. The Nazis had the war won in the West and had all the time to focus just on Russia....however, Japan screwed Germany with one of the worst timed and poorly done sneak attack in history. Hitler then doubled down by ignoring his own generals and taking direct control of the Army in December.

Had Japan not attacked the US, and he left his generals to do what they wanted, we might be speaking German now.

Deleted member 31923 · Jun 22, 2021

It was almost always a bad idea to invade Russia throughout history. Napoleon was an all time top military commander and failed to invade Russia, so there was no way Hitler was going to pull it off.

Thordinson · Jun 22, 2021

Akita One said:
Huh? This is the opposite of the truth...literally every WW2 class and documentary gives extensive time to it...the only thing on the Western Front that really got attention is the Normandy invasion.

Sometime when people say "we don't learn this in school", I wonder if they ever went to school. People don't pay attention to one of the two biggest invasions and military turnarounds in history? This is like the bizarre thread the other day where "Americans think they freed the Jews from the Holocaust"...despite the fact that most concentration camps were in the Eastern front, and the ones the Americans did come across were mostly abandoned by the Germans by the time we got there (also, literally zero people think Stalin was ever friendly to Jewish people).

I can say from my education in school, I learned very little about what happened with Eastern Europe and we focused mainly on what America did during the war.

Sean C. · Jun 22, 2021

Akita One said:
Huh? This is the opposite of the truth...

No, it isn't. As evidence, look at any major news site right now and see how many stories about this anniversary you find. Compare that in a few months to the number of 80th anniversary pieces for the bombing of Pearl Harbor.

Or look at how many films Hollywood has made about the eastern front, or how much the Soviet war effort comes up in American depictions of the war.

PeskyToaster · Jun 22, 2021

Apocalyptic is probably the best word for it. It was a war of annihilation between two powers driven by extreme ideologies and a complete disregard for human life, military and civilian. They were there to wipe each other out which is why the casualties numbers are so astronomical compared to the Western Front. I believe in Hitler's view that the main goal was always destroying Russia (and the people's in between them) and probably believed that Western powers wouldn't re-ignite a world war so soon after the first if his focus was destroying communism in his view.

China too got the full brunt of the Japanese army before WWII officially started and it continued until the war ended.

Tawpgun said:
From a western education point of view, this graph is still a mindfuck.

This graph pretty starkly illustrates the wars of annihilation going on. The percentages of civilian deaths are insane in Eastern Europe and in China. It wasn't just a nasty side-effect, it was the main goal for these countries. To completely wipe out another people.

Omegasquash · Jun 22, 2021

Akita One said:
Huh? This is the opposite of the truth...literally every WW2 class and documentary gives extensive time to it...the only thing on the Western Front that really got attention is the Normandy invasion.

Sometime when people say "we don't learn this in school", I wonder if they ever went to school. People don't pay attention to one of the two biggest invasions and military turnarounds in history? This is like the bizarre thread the other day where "Americans think they freed the Jews from the Holocaust"...despite the fact that most concentration camps were in the Eastern front, and the ones the Americans did come across were mostly abandoned by the Germans by the time we got there (also, literally zero people think Stalin was ever friendly to Jewish people).

That's the thing though, it wasn't taught in detail the same way that Normandy and Pearl Harbor and even Midway were. Less emphasis was placed on it, but I don't think it was ignored outright. The eastern front was hell on earth, but it's not too surprising to me (American) that it wasn't, simply because of nationalist pride. It was noted that Hitler was an idiot and didn't learn from Napoleon and got his ass kicked, but that was really it.

GameOver · Jun 22, 2021

At one point the Nazis took control almost all of Europe. From France to Moscow.

Akita One · Jun 22, 2021

Sean C. said:
No, it isn't. As evidence, look at any major news site right now and see how many stories about this anniversary you find. Compare that in a few months to the number of 80th anniversary pieces for the bombing of Pearl Harbor.

Or look at how many films Hollywood has made about the eastern front, or how much the Soviet war effort comes up in American depictions of the war.

What the hell does news sites matter? It's 2021...are you really comparing it to Pearl Harbor anniversaries in the US, where Americans were directly attacked? And Hollywood movies...like are you serious? Because Captain America didn't speak about it in The First Soldier?

One does not take away from the other. Search any documentary on the war ever and what information is out there. We are now supposed to remember every battle with the same veracity as an attack where thousands of Americans died due to a sneak attack?

GameOver · Jun 22, 2021

The Motherland Calls is one of the most beautiful sculptures/statues ever

DorkLord54 · Jun 22, 2021

Yeah, American schools rarely tell you that the majority of casualties inflicted on the Nazis were by the Soviets, or that the Soviets themselves suffered the most casualties of any nation (often via purposeful extermination by the Nazis towards the Soviets).

The biggest losers of this were the Baltics, who were invaded by the Soviets in 40, thought they'd gained their independence during Barbarossa, learned quickly that the Nazis also had no such plans, then were reintegrated back into the USSR for another 50 years.

Akita One · Jun 22, 2021

Thordinson said:
I can say from my education in school, I learned very little about what happened with Eastern Europe and we focused mainly on what America did during the war.

Omegasquash said:
That's the thing though, it wasn't taught in detail the same way that Normandy and Pearl Harbor and even Midway were. Less emphasis was placed on it, but I don't think it was ignored outright. The eastern front was hell on earth, but it's not too surprising to me (American) that it wasn't, simply because of nationalist pride. It was noted that Hitler was an idiot and didn't learn from Napoleon and got his ass kicked, but that was really it.

I can speak to your specific schooling and whatnot...but come on...nationalistic pride? Yes, a school in America is going to focus on battles Americans died in, and not battles that we were involved with.

But...this happened in 1941...basic WW2 education starts in 1933...so your school just ignored everything before 1941? And this was a high school? Nothing on the battles in Africa either or the programs set up to delivery supplies to the UK and USSR?

But yes education is poor in general in America, I mean look at the people that can't understand something as basic as common core. We have some people who think NYC has, by any definition, a "good" school system (it's awful really) so I can't imagine who is being taught what, from school to school, in this country.

I don't know man...like why can't we just talk about the operation, but no one would be interested unless we find a way to say how America sucks and is awful in every way. Like...Americans aren't being taught about Operation Barbarossa? With as wildly popular WW2 history, and documentaries on every platform, where it is a key part of the discussion of the war?

Because I feel like the same people who are saying that Americans aren't educated about anything in Europe before 1941, are the same ones that also say they weren't taught common core or other basics...because...this is like basic basic history.

And what "detail" are people learning about...Midway? Like you are trying to say Americans nothing about the Eastern Europe front, but somehow know details like the Battle of Midway?

Dekuman · Jun 22, 2021

DorkLord54 said:
Yeah, American schools rarely tell you that the majority of casualties inflicted on the Nazis were by the Soviets, or that the Soviets themselves suffered the most casualties of any nation (often via purposeful extermination by the Nazis towards the Soviets).

The biggest losers of this were the Baltics, who were invaded by the Soviets in 40, thought they'd gained their independence during Barbarossa, learned quickly that the Nazis also had no such plans, then were reintegrated back into the USSR for another 50 years.

Biggest losers were the baltics? Not the poles or the Finns that the soviets conspired with the Nazis to invade?

Yeah the soviets took the brunt of the casualties from the Nazi after 2 years of enabling them conquer western Europe

Stalin was just playing chess , he wanted the capitalists to fight amongst themselves and his refusal to believe Hitler would turn on him despite good intelligence was part of what made the soviets so unprepared.

Sorry if I'm not starry eyed about soviet losses.

DorkLord54 · Jun 22, 2021

They mean nationalistic as in the Cold War clouded American views of WWII (and the Soviet Union in general) for a very long time. You're still more likely to find Americans who believe the clean Wehrmacht myth than you will Germans, even from non-racist Americans who mean well.

Sean C. · Jun 22, 2021

Akita One said:
What the hell does news sites matter?

Since my statement was "People in western Europe and North America don't often pay much attention to significant anniversaries involving the eastern front", the fact that people in western Europe and North America are not paying much attention to this significant anniversary involving the eastern front is prima facie evidence.

And Hollywood movies...like are you serious? Because Captain America didn't speak about it in The First Soldier?

Bluntly, Hollywood movies are where the average person gets their history from, and they're a much better prism for understanding what the ordinary person learns and remembers than specialized documentaries that are mainly watched by history buffs. The fact that western film ignores the eastern front reflects the general lack of understanding of the full extent of what went on there.

Enduin · Jun 22, 2021

Omegasquash said:
It's always near fascinating how Stalin refused to believe it until it happened. And I say "near" only because "fascinating" isn't a term I'm very comfortable with, considering the loss of life.

While Nazi/Soviet relations were always precarious and conflict was inevitable at some point I think Stalin's refusal to believe it makes a bit of sense given that barely 6 months prior the two were really damn close to becoming formal allies and the Soviets joining the Axis powers in the war effort. Like Stalin/Molotov had sent terms to Germany that past Nov that would have solidified that, but Hitler was so paranoid about Soviet ambitions he just ghosted them for months while he prepared his invasion plans instead. A bunch of high ranking Nazis were pushing for this too and super happy about the proposal, so it wasn't simply just a stalling tactic for the invasion.

In the grand scheme 6 months is a long time politically and in the midst of a major war, but they still had relatively friendly relations, having signed a different agreement that January to solidify their borders and continue commercial trade. It is pretty amazing that someone as famously paranoid as Stalin somehow got completely blindsided by the Nazis.

Thordinson · Jun 22, 2021

Akita One said:
I can speak to your specific schooling and whatnot...but come on...nationalistic pride? Yes, a school in America is going to focus on battles Americans died in, and not battles that we were involved with.

But...this happened in 1941...basic WW2 education starts in 1933...so your school just ignored everything before 1941? And this was a high school? Nothing on the battles in Africa either or the programs set up to delivery supplies to the UK and USSR?

But yes education is poor in general in America, I mean look at the people that can't understand something as basic as common core. We have some people who think NYC has, by any definition, a "good" school system (it's awful really) so I can't imagine who is being taught what, from school to school, in this country.

I don't know man...like why can't we just talk about the operation, but no one would be interested unless we find a way to say how America sucks and is awful in every way. Like...Americans aren't being taught about Operation Barbarossa? With as wildly popular WW2 history, and documentaries on every platform, where it is a key part of the discussion of the war?

Because I feel like the same people who are saying that Americans aren't educated about anything in Europe before 1941, are the same ones that also say they weren't taught common core or other basics...because...this is like basic basic history.

Not much about Africa other than "Patton won!" It was mainly skimmed over for things like Pearl Harbor, Iwo Jima, and Normandy.

If America wasn't involved, barely anything was mentioned about it, honestly.

I grew up in the South if that matters.

Gunny T Highway · Jun 22, 2021

It is still crazy how much larger the Eastern Front was in terms of soldiers fighting on both sides compared to the Western Front. Hitler's hubris into thinking he could really invade Russia is still laughable. There is just too much land to try to take over plus the winters would stop any army.

Toxi · Jun 22, 2021

Tawpgun said:
From a western education point of view, this graph is still a mindfuck.

Jesus Christ at Poland.

Temascos · Jun 22, 2021

I remember reading the book Stalingrad by Anthony Beevor a lot when I was younger, I was big into war history. The sheer scale of the conflict was something I could not comprehend, even when I had the raw numbers of tanks, planes, support personnel, people on the ground and ultimately the numbers of people who lost their lives. Just imagine it all laid out in front of you, on a clear field, it would seem practically endless.

Richietto · Jun 22, 2021

There was definitely a focus on Normandy and our conflict with Japan in my US History classes but there was also plenty on the eastern fronts.

Those civilian casualties on the allied side though. Holy shit. Poor fuckin Poland was wiped the fuck out.

Thankfully the Soviet's were able to hold it together. If the Nazis had taken all of Europe… oh boy.

DorkLord54 · Jun 22, 2021

Dekuman said:
Biggest losers were the baltics? Not the poles or the Finns that the soviets conspired with the Nazis to invade?

Yeah the soviets took the brunt of the casualties from the Nazi after 2 years of enabling them conquer western Europe

Stalin was just playing chess , he wanted the capitalists to fight amongst themselves and his refusal to believe Hitler would turn on him despite good intelligence was part of what made the soviets so unprepared.

Sorry if I'm not starry eyed about soviet losses.

You don't have to like Stalin or his goons to feel sorry for the Eastern Front and the losses that occurred, esp since the Nazis didn't see the Soviets as fellow combatants like they did the Western Allies, but as potential slaves to possibly be "Germanized" at best and roaches to be expunged from what would soon become (in their mind) Greater Germania at worst.

Akita One · Jun 22, 2021

Sean C. said:
Since my statement was "People in western Europe and North America don't often pay much attention to significant anniversaries involving the eastern front", the fact that people in western Europe and North America are not paying much attention to this significant anniversary involving the eastern front is prima facie evidence.

Why would a battle from 60 years ago be a "significant" anniversary...most people who even remember the war aren't even alive! And what does an anniversary matter...like do you know the relationship the US has with Eastern European countries now? Where are the people broken up about "the average person" in Europe...like why would such a small speck of attention do for anything? Also, what about people in Japan, China, India...they aren't having celebrations...and they CERTAINLY aren't akin to their own remembrances of their dead from the war.

Bluntly, Hollywood movies are where the average person gets their history from, and they're a much better prism for understanding what the ordinary person learns and remembers than specialized documentaries that are mainly watched by history buffs. The fact that western film ignores the eastern front reflects the general lack of understanding of the full extent of what went on there.

No...that's where idiots get there history. Have you seen Hollywood box office receipts, especially over the past 40 years? The average person goes to the movies to see action blockbusters and comedies. But hey, if you want idiots to pay attention to an anniversary that no one is stopping you from celebrating, because a country that wasn't involved in it isn't celebrating every battle that happened on the Eastern Front on the level of one of the largest death tolls ever inflicted on Americans? Ok.

By the way, how good have Hollywood movies been at reflecting even the most simple of history lessons...not great? But again, that's not stopping Europeans from making their own movies for the world (and they have).

Some of you have this unhealthy need for attention to things that don't even mean anything in the scope of things, just to feel good about shitting on anything and everything.

Omegasquash · Jun 22, 2021

Akita One said:
I can speak to your specific schooling and whatnot...but come on...nationalistic pride? Yes, a school in America is going to focus on battles Americans died in, and not battles that we were involved with.

But...this happened in 1941...basic WW2 education starts in 1933...so your school just ignored everything before 1941? And this was a high school? Nothing on the battles in Africa either or the programs set up to delivery supplies to the UK and USSR?

But yes education is poor in general in America, I mean look at the people that can't understand something as basic as common core. We have some people who think NYC has, by any definition, a "good" school system (it's awful really) so I can't imagine who is being taught what, from school to school, in this country.

I don't know man...like why can't we just talk about the operation, but no one would be interested unless we find a way to say how America sucks and is awful in every way. Like...Americans aren't being taught about Operation Barbarossa? With as wildly popular WW2 history, and documentaries on every platform, where it is a key part of the discussion of the war?

Because I feel like the same people who are saying that Americans aren't educated about anything in Europe before 1941, are the same ones that also say they weren't taught common core or other basics...because...this is like basic basic history.

And what "detail" are people learning about...Midway? Like you are trying to say Americans nothing about the Eastern Europe front, but somehow know details like the Battle of Midway?

DorkLord54 said:
They mean nationalistic as in the Cold War clouded American views of WWII (and the Soviet Union in general) for a very long time. You're still more likely to find Americans who believe the clean Wehrmacht myth than you will Germans, even from non-racist Americans who mean well.

DorkLord put it better than I could have.

At least when I was in high school (mid nineties), we loved being the heroes and thinking of ourselves as such. We were taught more about what we (America) did in the war more than anything else. Not to say the info wasn't out there, but like...there was the Cold War. There was Tiananmen Square. There was the Berlin Wall coming down. The discussion now isn't that America is awful. It's that we were being taught that we were awesome. If that makes any difference.

Akita One · Jun 22, 2021

Thordinson said:
Not much about Africa other than "Patton won!" It was mainly skimmed over for things like Pearl Harbor, Iwo Jima, and Normandy.

If America wasn't involved, barely anything was mentioned about it, honestly.

I grew up in the South if that matters.

Ok well that isn't "all Americans"...education in the south is bordering on non-existent and the levels of real illiteracy is still high.
Also, a high percentage of people from Eastern Europe live in the cities, and liberal educational goals are higher beyond just "teaching the state test to pass it"? (Though there is still plenty of that)

Thordinson · Jun 22, 2021

Akita One said:
Ok well that isn't "all Americans"...education in the south is bordering on non-existent and the levels of real illiteracy is still high.
Also, a high percentage of people from Eastern Europe live in the cities, and liberal educational goals are higher beyond just "teaching the state test to pass it"? (Though there is still plenty of that)

I didn't mean to imply it was all Americans. I just meant to say that many Americans weren't taught these things. And seeing as how my state practically dictates what is put into textbooks around America, I wouldn't be surprised if there are some similar experiences outside of the South.

Akita One · Jun 22, 2021

Omegasquash said:
DorkLord put it better than I could have.

At least when I was in high school (mid nineties), we loved being the heroes and thinking of ourselves as such. We were taught more about what we (America) did in the war more than anything else. Not to say the info wasn't out there, but like...there was the Cold War. There was Tiananmen Square. There was the Berlin Wall coming down. The discussion now isn't that America is awful. It's that we were being taught that we were awesome. If that makes any difference.

Ok but the Cold War "ended" 30 years ago! That's the point I'm making...like...it makes me ask, what other things in your school did you not learn?
And I'm just saying, this is stuff I learned in the 6th grade in the early 90s, reinforced in high school and then again in college. Like, the US stuff was the very end of the year, and were always in the "easy" class or the "easy" part of the class because what we did was so simplistic in comparison.

It's just so common to repeatedly hear "oh man they should teach this in school" but then you ask more and some people then can't even read beyond elementary school level or understand common core. Like how are you an adult in 2021 and you can't understand common core, something I was taught in the 80s.

Thordinson said:
I didn't mean to imply it was all Americans. I just meant to say that many Americans weren't taught these things. And seeing as how my state practically dictates what is put into textbooks around America, I wouldn't be surprised if there are some similar experiences outside of the South.

Ok but come on..."all of America" isn't getting text books solely from the south. And, very little actual teaching is done from textbooks (usually that is the first day of a new subject..."go home and read this chapter". Textbooks are for the most basic details of history, until you get to high school level.
-----------------------
On a side note...just did a Google search on Operation Barbarossa and clicked the news tab...most Western Europeans and some American news sites came up immediately...but yeah...no one outside of Eastern Europe talks about it? Come on.

Toxi · Jun 22, 2021

US education focuses more on the pacific war side of WW2 than anything else.

Which itself is a problem because we don't learn about the victims of the Pacific War like Indonesia and China.

Sean C. · Jun 22, 2021

Akita One said:
Why would a battle from 60 years ago be a "significant" anniversary...most people who even remember the war aren't even alive!

Major anniversaries get commemorated in the media all the time. Hence, e.g., all those articles about the birthdays of famous authors, etc.

By the way, how good have Hollywood movies been at reflecting even the most simple of history lessons...not great?

Indeed, they aren't, which is a big part of why historical knowledge in the general population is so poor.

Some of you have this unhealthy need for attention to things that don't even mean anything in the scope of things, just to feel good about shitting on anything and everything.

Uh, you are way overreacting to what was a fairly straightforward observation, that most people in the west do not know much about the eastern front, for various reasons (nationalistic and otherwise). It was not even the primary point of the post. But you are fooling yourself if you think it is not true.

Omegasquash · Jun 22, 2021

Akita One said:
Ok but the Cold War "ended" 30 years ago! That's the point I'm making...like...it makes me ask, what other things in your school did you not learn?
And I'm just saying, this is stuff I learned in the 6th grade in the early 90s, reinforced in high school and then again in college. Like, the US stuff was the very end of the year, and were always in the "easy" class or the "easy" part of the class because what we did was so simplistic in comparison.

It's just so common to repeatedly hear "oh man they should teach this in school" but then you ask more and some people then can't even read beyond elementary school level or understand common core. Like how are you an adult in 2021 and you can't understand common core, something I was taught in the 80s.

It varies from region to region and state to state, and even teacher to teacher (in some cases).

Deleted member 17092 · Jun 22, 2021

PeskyToaster said:
Apocalyptic is probably the best word for it. It was a war of annihilation between two powers driven by extreme ideologies and a complete disregard for human life, military and civilian. They were there to wipe each other out which is why the casualties numbers are so astronomical compared to the Western Front. I believe in Hitler's view that the main goal was always destroying Russia (and the people's in between them) and probably believed that Western powers wouldn't re-ignite a world war so soon after the first if his focus was destroying communism in his view.

China too got the full brunt of the Japanese army before WWII officially started and it continued until the war ended.

This graph pretty starkly illustrates the wars of annihilation going on. The percentages of civilian deaths are insane in Eastern Europe and in China. It wasn't just a nasty side-effect, it was the main goal for these countries. To completely wipe out another people.

Well yeah Hitler's goal was essentially to redo America's "manifest destiny." He just seemed to forget about the part where he wasn't fighting natives who had a huge technology disadvantage and also didn't not have concrete alliances to prevent such a wholesale genocide and redistribution of land.

Japan also largely had the same goals. The wholesale annihilation and takeover of most of SE Asia for the Japanese empire. Japan probably would have succeeded tbh if they just slowed their roll a bit and didn't sneak attack the US. The US largely wouldn't have had a problem with Japan taking over most of China and wholesale defeating Mao's regime. Hitler never really had a chance at not getting the US involved as he was too destabilizing to US interests in Europe, and eventually the USSR arguably would have pushed the Germans back to Berlin without American intervention anyway, and the US would then be forced into the theater to prevent Stalin from doing what Hitler already basically did for him.

Thordinson · Jun 22, 2021

Akita One said:
Ok but come on..."all of America" isn't getting text books solely from the south. And, very little actual teaching is done from textbooks (usually that is the first day of a new subject..."go home and read this chapter". Textbooks are for the most basic details of history, until you get to high school level.

I didn't say all of America. I said around America as in outside of just the South. It's well documented that textbooks cater to Texas and are often written to adhere to Texas curriculum. We only really got the most basic details of history. That's what we needed to pass the test to graduate so that's what we were taught in high school. It was all rote memorization.

I don't know why this is shocking haha

Omegasquash said:
It varies from region to region and state to state, and even teacher to teacher (in some cases).

This too.

Toxi · Jun 22, 2021

Richietto said:
Thankfully the Soviet's were able to hold it together. If the Nazis had taken all of Europe… oh boy.

IIRC, the biggest military motive to take over the Soviet Union was because it was where all the decent farming land was. Germany had a ridiculous military apparatus, but like much of Europe the industrial sector had outstripped the ability of the agricultural sector to support it.

So in addition to genocidal hatred, the Nazis were also motivated by the very real threat of food shortages to the war effort. Thank God the Soviets won.

HammerOfThor · Jun 22, 2021

I think the premise of this thread is kind of flawed.

Everyone who studies, or has an interest in, WWII and its historical impact knows this.

But, yeah, of course the western news isn't going to celebrate "random" dates of battles like this. OF COURSE the US is going to have coverage on Pearl Harbor's anniversary, it happened to us. Hell D-Day was more important than Hitler's invasion of Russia to most westerners(and honestly an amazing strategic feat) but even that barely gets a mention nowadays. I'm sure eastern Europe isn't going balls out on Pearl Harbor remembrance coverage or the many other battles on the western front that allowed the allies to progress towards Germany.

Otherwise, yes, I think this battle was important and helped trigger the beginning of the end.

Toxi · Jun 22, 2021

HammerOfThor said:
I think the premise of this thread is kind of flawed.

Everyone who studies, or has an interest in, WWII and its historical impact knows this.

But, yeah, of course the western news isn't going to celebrate "random" dates of battles like this. OF COURSE the US is going to have coverage on Pearl Harbor's anniversary, it happened to us. Hell D-Day was more important than Hitler's invasion of Russia to most westerners(and honestly an amazing strategic feat) but even that barely gets a mention nowadays. I'm sure eastern Europe isn't going balls out on Pearl Harbor remembrance coverage or the many other battles on the western front that allowed the allies to progress towards Germany.

I think it's important to bring it to people's attention. Most of this forum isn't from one of the states on the Eastern front. I knew about the impact on the Soviet Union, but the casualties in Poland, Lithuania, Yugoslavia, and Latvia are news to me as an ignorant American.

Akita One · Jun 22, 2021

Sean C. said:
Major anniversaries get commemorated in the media all the time. Hence, e.g., all those articles about the birthdays of famous authors, etc.

Indeed, they aren't, which is a big part of why historical knowledge in the general population is so poor.

Uh, you are way overreacting to what was a fairly straightforward observation, that most people in the west do not know much about the eastern front, for various reasons (nationalistic and otherwise). It was not even the primary point of the post. But you are fooling yourself if you think it is not true.

Ok, and my point is, the only people that "don't know anything" about Europe before 1941 are idiots who likely can't even point out where they live on a globe or read/understand the very educational books and movies you propose...which was my whole point. Like we have people who are basing their opinion on boomers from the south or from teachers that only teach the textbook, from "when the Cold War" ended.

Like even if you had no schooling, you'd have to live under a rock to not know about these battles and especially the events that led to Hitler's defeat...which this was the beginning of the end for him. You are talking about Hollywood but ignoring how popular and well sourced all the documentaries and shows on PBS, Amazon, Netflix and Hulu are? You could probably pass a college WW2 class just by watching Netflix. But I guess that doesn't count as "Hollywood" or the "American/Western Europe media", for some reason.

HammerOfThor said:
I think the premise of this thread is kind of flawed.

Everyone who studies, or has an interest in, WWII and its historical impact knows this.

But, yeah, of course the western news isn't going to celebrate "random" dates of battles like this. OF COURSE the US is going to have coverage on Pearl Harbor's anniversary, it happened to us. Hell D-Day was more important than Hitler's invasion of Russia to most westerners(and honestly an amazing strategic feat) but even that barely gets a mention nowadays. I'm sure eastern Europe isn't going balls out on Pearl Harbor remembrance coverage or the many other battles on the western front that allowed the allies to progress towards Germany.

Otherwise, yes, I think this battle was important and helped trigger the beginning of the end.

BOOM...this is all I meant. But we know the real reason this thread was made was to shit on America or anything within 50 degrees of separation of America.

Like, don't say we should have a discussion on this when your contribution besides "America sucks" is "well alot of people died and here is a chart"...really? Like, people aren't into history in general and even 9/11 remembrances are much watered-down than they were 10 years ago.

Sean C. · Jun 22, 2021

Akita One said:
But we know the real reason this thread was made was to shit on America or anything within 50 degrees of separation of America.

Um...no.

The real reason this thread was made was to call attention to the anniversary of the war. The post does not even mention the United States, and it's bizarre how fixated you've become on one part of one sentence when the main point is found immediately after in that same sentence.

Prinz Eugn · Jun 22, 2021

Omegasquash said:
DorkLord put it better than I could have.

At least when I was in high school (mid nineties), we loved being the heroes and thinking of ourselves as such. We were taught more about what we (America) did in the war more than anything else. Not to say the info wasn't out there, but like...there was the Cold War. There was Tiananmen Square. There was the Berlin Wall coming down. The discussion now isn't that America is awful. It's that we were being taught that we were awesome. If that makes any difference.

In New Mexico, in the mid-2000s, we were lucky to even get past WW2 by the end of the semester/year. The 20th century always got smashed into like the last month of school, we definitely spent most of the time on the US's role, and it wasn't an especially critical perspective.

The Eastern Front was basically hand-waved in popular history even then ("lots of Russians died but the Germans invaded in winter so they lost").

Akita One · Jun 22, 2021

Sean C. said:
Um...no.

The real reason this thread was made was to call attention to the anniversary of the war. The post does not even mention the United States, and it's bizarre how fixated you've become on one part of one sentence when the main point is found immediately after in that same sentence.

"People in western Europe and North America don't often pay much attention to significant anniversaries involving the eastern front, for various reasons"

Thordinson · Jun 22, 2021

Akita One said:
Ok, and my point is, the only people that "don't know anything" about Europe before 1941 are idiots who likely can't even point out where they live on a globe or read/understand the very educational books and movies you propose...which was my whole point. Like we have people who are basing their opinion on boomers from the south or from teachers that only teach the textbook, from "when the Cold War" ended.

Basing my opinion? It's not an opinion to say that I was never taught about these things. In a country where most people can't even tell you when the Constitution was ratified, you believe that most know what Operation Barbossa is or what happened along the Eastern Front?

Only one in three Americans (36 percent) can actually pass a multiple choice test consisting of items taken from the U.S. Citizenship Test, which has a passing score of 60, according to a national survey released today by the Woodrow Wilson National Fellowship Foundation.

Only 13 percent of those surveyed knew when the U.S. Constitution was ratified, even on a multiple-choice exam similar to the citizenship exam, with most incorrectly thinking it occurred in 1776. More than half of respondents (60 percent) didn't know which countries the United States fought in World War II. And despite the recent media spotlight on the U.S. Supreme Court, 57 percent of those surveyed did not know how many Justices actually serve on the nation's highest court.

HammerOfThor · Jun 22, 2021

Toxi said:
I think it's important to bring it to people's attention. Most of this forum isn't from one of the states on the Eastern front. I knew about the impact on the Soviet Union, but the casualties in Poland, Lithuania, Yugoslavia, and Latvia are news to me as an ignorant American.

I absolutely agree. But part of the OP's argument through this thread is kind of faulting the West/western media for not covering it, making a comparison to how much Pearl Harbor will be mentioned in a few months in the US. I think that argument is disingenuous because Pearl Harbor happened to the US. Of course we would absolutely cover it more. No one would barge into another country's news and start complaining they don't mention western WWII events.

Sean C. · Jun 22, 2021

Akita One said:
"People in western Europe and North America don't often pay much attention to significant anniversaries involving the eastern front, for various reasons"

Yes, that is not specifically about the United States, it is noting (correctly) that westerners don't generally learn much about the eastern front. Which is true (we also don't learn much about the war in mainland Asia). I don't know how you went from that to the idea that the point of this thread was to criticize the United States. This is a commemorative post that you've been doing your best to turn into an argument about the American educational system.

HammerOfThor said:
No one would barge into another country's news and start complaining they don't mention western WWII events.

I'm a westerner, so I'm not barging into another country's news, I am making an observation about the place where I live.

And yes, I do think that western media should do a better job of covering global history than it does. That doesn't mean not foregrounding national history, because it's vitally important for people to understand their own country's history first (there's also a lot of work that needs to be done on that front, incidentally).

On this day 80 years ago, Operation Barbarossa commenced.

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