"On Letting People Enjoy Things, Why are so many pop culture fanatics threatened by disagreement?"

[WrenchNinja]

Unless you're spending your first visit to the internet reading this article (in which case, I'm honored) you've probably seen an excerpt from this webcomic by artist Adam Ellis before. If there's a semi-viral tweet voicing a minority opinion about a popular thing, it'll be in the replies. It's the ultimate expression of contempt for the mere idea that someone could not like an element of pop culture. What I didn't know until seeing the full comic for the first time was that it's been somewhat altered from its original context.

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We see in the original that the refrain "let people enjoy things" is not meant as a defense of some nerd culture object, as the last two panels are so often used, but as a rejoinder to tired nerd dismissal of sports fandom. It was a message to the current gatekeepers of pop culture to stop being so annoying about people who enjoy watching football. Football, in this admittedly absurd and unrealistic context, is the underdog when compared to wildly successful genre film and television.

So why do so many people use the comic to defend the most popular things on the planet? What do they even mean by "let people enjoy things"? Having been beset by scores of angry commenters every time I post about a Marvel movie on Letterboxd, I think I have the necessary experience to unpack this idea.

It all comes back to the paradoxical fact that fans of the world's most popular media are intensely insecure in their fandom. Avengers: Endgame is on track to make more money than any film has ever made before. So why do fans brigade negative reviews? When I posted aboutEndgame on Letterboxd, there was something that came up again and again in furious comments: "You made me feel bad for liking the movie." Now, you can judge for yourself whether my review was at all patronizing. I think there's something revealing here, though. If you hold an opinion about a movie, why should reading an opposing one make you feel bad? Unless, of course, you're not secure in your own opinion. Unless you feel there's some truth in those opposing arguments.

I'm not saying I'm objectively right about any movie. That's not possible for anyone. I'm just saying that I think the notion that a negative review could make someone feel bad for liking a movie says less about the review than it does about the person reading it. It indicates to me that they want to like a movie and not think too deeply about why they like it, out of fear that introspection would lead to them not liking it anymore. So they lash out at critics, even if those critics are a tiny minority. They can't feel comfortable just being part of a titanic pop-cultural movement. Any suggestion of disagreement has to be eradicated, because that hint of opposition is a reminder that it's possible to not like the thing. And if that's possible, should they?

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So we see the comic posted everywhere. "Let people enjoy things." What it really means is "You're not allowed to not enjoy things."It's a fundamentally broken way to look at art. Why do so many people perceive a dissenting opinion as a literal attack on affirmative ones? Especially in a case where the affirmative opinions are in such overwhelming majority? People are so threatened by the existence of disagreement, or even just of abstinence. In this new pop culture landscape, to merely opt out of these massive events is considered snobbish and uppity. You see a million viral tweets that scream "No one cares that you don't watch Game of Thrones! Let people enjoy things!" as if it's somehow hurting your enjoyment that other people choose not to engage. Non-participation is considered at best a social faux pas and at worst a sneering act of malice. It's insane.

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It's a few weeks old but I couldnt find a thread about. There's alot more in the article, and I definitely think it's worth a read. I think my first experience with toxic fandom online that gets overly defensive and identifying criticism of the product with themselves was with Twilight Princess and Jeff Gerstmann's review (which wasnt even a negative review) and it has only gotten worse since then.

https://medium.com/@EstherRosenfield/let-people-enjoy-things-12021d00285a

 

[Shodan14]

Trolls?

 

[Deleted member 4367]

I'm not interested in engaging in criticisms of Blockbuster media because it clearly won't hold up to it hardly ever and I'd rather just let it wash right over me.

 

[Puck Beaverton]

people have their identity tied up with things like the MCU or Game of Thrones

 

[deepFlaw]

It's worth reading.

People have really twisted "don't needlessly be a dick about someone liking something at all" into "it's bad and personally insulting to criticize media that a lot of people like".

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

I don't get it. So i'm supposed to allow the people who don't like what I like to hound me endlessly about how bad thing I like is?

 

[BDS]

I don't get it. So i'm supposed to allow the people who don't like what I like to hound me endlessly about how bad thing I like is?

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lol at "hound me endlessly"

Are they yelling at you on the bus or coming to your house or something? Or are they posting in a public internet forum thread?

 

[CloseTalker]

We could all stand to learn a thing or two from Jeff Gerstmann's innate ability to give absolutely zero fucks what other people think about his opinions on something.

I don't get it. So i'm supposed to allow the people who don't like what I like to hound me endlessly about how bad thing I like is?

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*goes on forum, posts in thread about topic, people engage in conversation*
"They're hounding me endlessly!"

 

[Neutra]

there's no objective metric to grade the quality of "art" so the only way to create an order is to scream really loudly until your voice/opinion gets codified

EDIT: choosing sides/shitting on the other side seems like half the appeal of "stan" culture.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

Real OG's remember the reaction when Jeff gave Mario Sunshine an 8.0

 

[Psamtik]

It's wild, having grown up in a generation that was pretty cynical about media, to witness this shift to uncritical, this-brand-is-my-friend fawning.

 

[MattyG]

I don't get it. So i'm supposed to allow the people who don't like what I like to hound me endlessly about how bad thing I like is?

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I don't think they're talking about a TLJ situation where people who dislike it actively go after those who did. More of a situation where someone will watch Game of Thrones, tweet (on their own private twitter, not directed at anyone) that they didn't like it, and get slammed with "geez just let us enjoy it" replies. I've seen the latter happen a lot the last few weeks and it's obnoxious.

 

[FeliciaFelix]

I like in depth criticism. But when it's a 20 page rant about the power cube and the timeline or some deep nerd bullshit, I'll be the first one to say you should shut up and enjoy things

 

[deepFlaw]

I don't get it. So i'm supposed to allow the people who don't like what I like to hound me endlessly about how bad thing I like is?

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How'd you read that conclusion? It's the opposite situation. You're supposed to not hound people when they criticize something just because you enjoyed it (and/or don't want to think about the criticsm).

Unless you define "hounding me" as "I encountered various people saying this independently and not directed at me", your conclusion doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[Rendering...]

lol at "hound me endlessly"

Are they yelling at you on the bus or coming to your house or something? Or are they posting in a public internet forum thread?

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We could all stand to learn a thing or two from Jeff Gerstmann's innate ability to give absolutely zero fucks what other people think about his opinions on something.



*goes on forum, posts in thread about topic, people engage in conversation*
"They're hounding me endlessly!"

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This probably seemed rational in your heads, but consider what it's like to see TLJ haters pop up in all kinds of unrelated threads. There's no escape if you read this forum even a few times a week.

 

[whatsinaname]

When you don't have a clearly defined sense of self, it is easy to construct that around media that resonates with you. So a criticism of said media becomes a personal attack.

Same thing happens with religion.

 

[deepFlaw]

I don't think they're talking about a TLJ situation where people who dislike it actively go after those who did. More of a situation where someone will watch Game of Thrones, tweet (on their own private twitter, not directed at anyone) that they didn't like it, and get slammed with "geez just let us enjoy it" replies. I've seen the latter happen a lot the last few weeks and it's obnoxious.

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Right, it's that kind of thing. People just legitimately criticizing something that upset them, and getting hit with that comic panel or quoting of it.

The article made a great point of talking about the context of the other panels. Because here the equivalent would be, like, outright mocking Game of Thrones because there's dragons and zombies. Not someone who used to enjoy the show talking about how they think the writing is bad.

 

[scare_crow]

It's worth reading.

People have really twisted "don't needlessly be a dick about someone liking something at all" into "it's bad and personally insulting to criticize media that a lot of people like".

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*Chef's kiss*

 

[Akira86]

limited merit effect. Theres only so much attention to go round, so if you don't like my thing, but instead support some other thing, my thing might go away and your thing might take over.

 

[jon bones]

It's wild, having grown up in a generation that was pretty cynical about media, to witness this shift to uncritical, this-brand-is-my-friend fawning.

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It is super interesting , and I'd love to read more about the shift. Gen X to Millenials really went from "counter culture is king" to "pop culture is king".

 

[Enduin]

Combine the fact that most people completely suck at giving or receiving criticism along with the fact that many people incorporate the media they consume way too much into constructing their own identity and it's not surprising we're in this situation.

 

[fick]

It's wild, having grown up in a generation that was pretty cynical about media, to witness this shift to uncritical, this-brand-is-my-friend fawning.

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Yeah I spoke to my buddy one day back in the PUBG days. We both loved the game, but were extremely critical of its jank/performance.

Then we'd check out reddit, or I'd read a thread on here and people were acting as if it were a masterpiece. No one wants to admit something they enjoy can have flaws anymore.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

lol at "hound me endlessly"

Are they yelling at you on the bus or coming to your house or something? Or are they posting in a public internet forum thread?

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No, they're talking to me like a real human being. Real life humans sometime have disagreements while speaking to each other face to face.

 

[spam musubi]

Stuff like South Park has engendered a culture of "caring about things is for losers", which results in many people aggressively flaunting their not caring about something, which is generally obnoxious. Oftentimes it's not legitimate criticism. Just a superiority complex.

That being said, a positive opinion is not inherently more valuable than a negative one. Well constructed negative and positive opinions should be discussed at every opportunity. It's just that most people have poorly formulated shit opinions that they don't really care to discuss at length and just concern troll.

 

[Radiophonic]

Anything you love, some number of people will despise, and vice versa. You either accept it or don't. You can't argue taste. Though people will never stop trying.

 

[Woke Bespoke]

people have their identity tied up with things like the MCU or Game of Thrones

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IMO there's absolutely nothing wrong with this. You are what you eat. If you watch every Marvel movie several times and spends many hours a week discussing and analyzing said films... then yeah, it's gonna be a part of your identity. Doesn't matter if it's Marvel or GoT or anything else. If you spend most of your free time playing and discussing videogames, no one bats an eye. But if you consider something like the MCU a major part of your life, suddenly all the online trolls act like you don't have a personality or are some Disney drone or something. Whatever. People should be able to like what they like, I don't care.

 

[deepFlaw]

This probably seemed rational in your heads, but consider what it's like to see TLJ haters pop up in all kinds of unrelated threads. There's no escape if you read this forum even a few times a week.

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I mean... yeah, as someone who liked that movie well enough, that's frustrating, sure.

But it's kinda irrelevant to this article and what it's talking about?

 

[julia crawford]

I used to be very big on the idea that it's only legitimate or practical or valuable to criticize something for what it tries to achieve, which is to say that for example if a movie does not talk about global warming or intend to put out a message about it, then it's not "fair" or "useful" to criticize it for its commentary on it.

That's an absolutely wrong way to do it and it's irreparably stifling and, frankly, obviously wrong. So it's always with some sadness and irritation that i see people talk about how blockbusters are just meant to be dumb fun and obviously they're not trying to have a big message or whatever. Like, dude. Can't you see how that's obviously just fucking wrong from all sides. It's the biggest thing on earth, of course it should be criticized on everything it does and doesn't. You worried about sexism? Misrepresentation? That's where you find that stuff, in the kind of art that's "dumb fun".

 

[Massicot]

This is a bit of an aside, but also maybe relevant. Since that Medium article, the comic author/artist also gave this update/alternative version.

 

[gutshot]

I blame this on the echo chambers we create for ourselves. People are now accustomed to continually consuming only opinions they agree with, so when they are confronted with one that challenges their own opinions or beliefs it's like a slap in the face. And so they lash out.

 

[WrenchNinja]

IMO there's absolutely nothing wrong with this. You are what you eat. If you watch every Marvel movie several times and spends many hours a week discussing and analyzing said films... then yeah, it's gonna be a part of your identity. Doesn't matter if it's Marvel or GoT or anything else. If you spend most of your free time playing and discussing videogames, no one bats an eye. But if you consider something like the MCU a major part of your life, suddenly all the online trolls act like you don't have a personality or are some Disney drone or something. Whatever. People should be able to like what they like, I don't care.

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You are more than the fiction you consume though. Liking Marvel movies and Game of thrones is only one aspect of a person.

 

[Chojin]

I can't stand it if I don't get the same enjoyment out of things that others do.


I also feel the need to shit on things to stand out in a crowd.

Kinda like the stupid hats I wear in public.


(Carries a parrot AND a ferret on his shoulders)

 

[Lotto]

passion makes people defensive, even if it is ultimately inconsequential. a lot of it is also associating media with personality, no one really wants the thing they associate with to be criticized and berated

 

[Puck Beaverton]

IMO there's absolutely nothing wrong with this. You are what you eat. If you watch every Marvel movie several times and spends many hours a week discussing and analyzing said films... then yeah, it's gonna be a part of your identity. Doesn't matter if it's Marvel or GoT or anything else. If you spend most of your free time playing and discussing videogames, no one bats an eye. But if you consider something like the MCU a major part of your life, suddenly all the online trolls act like you don't have a personality or are some Disney drone or something. Whatever. People should be able to like what they like, I don't care.

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I would disagree that people who are also really into games don't get dunked on sometimes. Maybe not here, but irl it does.

 

[Conciliator]

 

[Parch]

Trolls?

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Definitely. Trolling is a big part of it. As soon as somebody starts using the term "stan", they're trolling IMO.

Haters of something will also unite to dogpile those who don't agree with the hyperbolic negativity. It's not just debate. Criticism and negativity is a lifestyle for some. They will complain about everything.

 

[teague]

I suggest as a companion piece to that article this one: Don't Let People Enjoy Things

As the day-to-day misery of this lucid nightmare wears people down to stumps, and the last refuge of joy and escapism is sought in mass culture, it may appear somewhat cruel to take entertainment to task. But the far worse alternative would be a world without criticism—a world well-wishing people are now working to build for their bosses, one where monopolistic media conglomerates cater to our simplest desires and most superficial political awareness. Until we are all forced to communicate with memes from pods wholly owned by Disney, we're just going to have to Let People Dislike Things.

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Author is the delightful Kate Wagner of McMansion Hell

 

[Scuffed]

People defend things they like. Whether it's a console war, Apple vs Android or about Star Wars, the essence of it is the same. I find people that say they don't understand this, to be disingenuous and are usually the most vitriolic in discussions. I liken it to when I was in guilds in mmos and the person who said they hated drama was always the most troublesome. The people that "don't get why people care so much" love to remind everyone of how little they care and how stupid people that do care are.

Now the intensity of rhetoric is more a matter about anonymity on the internet and the trappings of it.

 

[KarmaCow]

You also see it in the absurd spoiler handwringing lately.

 

[Irnbru]

What's amusing is how wrapped up people get about pop media. It's pop media, it's pulp fiction, it's not literary genius, it's general consumption goods. As much as I love Star Wars, it's deserving of the Rain Johnson's and D&Ds of the world not Villenueve's or Irrañatu's. Brands are not your friends, they are looking to make the most bang for buck.

 

[Snagret]

IMO there's absolutely nothing wrong with this. You are what you eat. If you watch every Marvel movie several times and spends many hours a week discussing and analyzing said films... then yeah, it's gonna be a part of your identity. Doesn't matter if it's Marvel or GoT or anything else. If you spend most of your free time playing and discussing videogames, no one bats an eye. But if you consider something like the MCU a major part of your life, suddenly all the online trolls act like you don't have a personality or are some Disney drone or something. Whatever. People should be able to like what they like, I don't care.

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If the only thing you do with your life is consume comic book media, you should probably diversify your interests a bit. I think that goes for any hobby that's based entirely around consuming things.

But aside from that, people not liking a work of fiction or wanting to engage with it critically in a way that doesn't just completely praise it doesn't make them trolls. Don't let someone tell you you can't enjoy something like a summer blockbuster, but people should be allowed to express if they don't (and why they didn't).

 

[TheChungusAmongUs]

This is a bit of an aside, but also maybe relevant. Since that Medium article, the comic author/artist also gave this update/alternative version.

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I think the problem generally is most people on the internet are just trash at giving criticism.

 

[Deleted member 4034]

Some people are too reliant on others excitement to enjoy things.

 

[teague]

What's amusing is how wrapped up people get about pop media. It's pop media, it's pulp fiction, it's not literary genius, it's general consumption goods. As much as I love Star Wars, it's deserving of the Rain Johnson's and D&Ds of the world not Villenueve's or Irrañatu's. Brands are not your friends, they are looking to make the most bang for buck.

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I like how this comment that says "don't care too much about pop culture" secretly contains a very loaded judgment call about a pop cultural franchise

(Don't get me wrong, I love Villeneuve, Inarritu and for that matter Rian Johnson, I just think it's funny that "I hated TLJ" is just kind of snuck in here)

 

[Z-Beat]

Legitimate criticism is often piled in with people who believe themselves better by rising above what everyone likes with a need to prove it. Those are the people "just let people enjoy things" is directed at

 

[Blader]

I don't think they're talking about a TLJ situation where people who dislike it actively go after those who did. More of a situation where someone will watch Game of Thrones, tweet (on their own private twitter, not directed at anyone) that they didn't like it, and get slammed with "geez just let us enjoy it" replies. I've seen the latter happen a lot the last few weeks and it's obnoxious.

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That's funny because re: Game of Thrones I've only ever had the exact opposite experience, both here and on GAF. And I don't just mean the last few weeks, but for years and years.

It's not about feeling threatened by disagreement (though maybe that is just the case for some), but rather that discussions that are just completely negative are flat out not fun to be a part of. I rarely engage in GoT threads because, for so many years, it's been nonstop shitting on every little thing and have felt more like hatewatch threads than anything else. Similarly, I so rarely bother engaging in Star Wars threads outside of hangouts because they always get derailed into the same fucking conversations about TLJ over and over again. It's just not fun to talk about.

And of course this is a purely online phenomenon. I can talk to my coworkers about GoT on Monday morning, and there can be a wide range of reactions to the latest episode, but it never veers into the obnoxious territory that online discussions so often do.

 

[KINGOFSHIBUYA Ltd.]

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This, but the dude didn't need to be a dick in the missing first panel.

It's okay to like something some else hates. It's okay to hate thing other folks like. It's definitely okay to talk about both and to declare those views public.

It shouldn't be okay to try to silence views because they're not yours. Disagree? Sure go ahead. Say it even. Don't act like it's a threat, though. You'll be fine.

 

[Burbank]

Enjoy what you enjoy and don't be offended in turn by people who enjoy a good critical discussion about whatever the hell they wanna discuss. This goes both ways.

It's fine to direct vitriol at GoT, it's a fucking TV-show. Dont direct it at people.
Posters shitting on GoT? Fine.
Posters shitting on posters for shitting on a tv-episode? What is wrong with you?

 

[PSqueak]

Tribalism is deeply engraved in every aspect of our lives, when people like the same things as you it feels like validation, it feels like you belong, when people don't like the things you like often that makes people want to "defend their tribe" to feel once again validated about their choices.

A normal person often understands that this is should not bother one,. but the internet is full of loners, social awkward people and people who otherwise don't have access to groups of like minded folk in their IRL environment, so basically their online fandoms is all they have, they turn the consumption of media into their only character trait, so whenever someone doesn't enjoy the things they like, it's a personal insult because they have nothing else in life, so the tribalism intensifies.

Add the mantle of internet anonymity and it's a powder keg ready to blow up.

 

[teague]

It shouldn't be okay to try to silence views because they're not yours. Disagree? Sure go ahead. Say it even. Don't act like it's a threat, though. You'll be fine.

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100%--if everybody agreed with each other about art all the time, the world would be very boring and there would be no innovation