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Jintor

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,361
Whys he a hobo? As far as I recall he had an agency, office, job, what have you. It just wasn't doing lawyering stuff as before. In any case he shouldn't have been in the game to begin with. Capcoms cowardice started right there. Apollo was infinitely more interesting and cuter right from the start. To hear the sequels that came after crapped on him really stinks!

he wasn't really a hobo he just dressed like shit

I just tell myself that Phoenix seems like a damn god when you dn't know what he's thinking, that's how I deal with the obvious "let's kind of forget AA4 happened aside of having Apollo as a character now".

I mean this is the fucking guy who dared to cross-examine a parrot and turned that shit around. If you have no idea that he's basically winging it at all times he must seem like the world's best lawyer
 

FluxWaveZ

Persona Central
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
10,887
The juxtaposition of an Ema full of wonder and hope in 1-5 and her cynical self after running headfirst into reality in AA4 is amazing. AA4 has its problems, but the progression of already established characters wasn't one of them. It was an unpredictable direction which wasn't the typical advancement of the characters getting what they want and everything just being great.

That's more ambitious than what fans would typically want.
 

Deleted member 176

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
37,160
The juxtaposition of an Ema full of wonder and hope in 1-5 and her cynical self after running headfirst into reality in AA5 is amazing. AA4 has its problems, but the progression of already established characters wasn't one of them. It was an unpredictable direction which wasn't the typical advancement of the characters getting what they want and everything just being great.

That's more ambitious than what fans would typically want.
yes!! it makes her so much more interesting as a character. especially when in 1-5 she seems like a still interesting but low key science skin for Maya. then she actually grows up and you have to help her regain a bit of wonder again.

She's still good in AA4 and an enjoyable character but failing in her dreams to be a forensics investigator and flunking out after how gung-ho she was in 1-5 was kind of crumby.
for sure, but it made me a lot more invested in her character and she's hilarious too
 

Jintor

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,361
I think Ema's development was done kind of as a foil to Maya who remained roughly similar (I do like how they treat her in AA6 though), as well as a way to get her into the Gumshoe role

Speaking of Gumshoe, I miss Gumshoe, pal. I don't think I've seen him since Perfect Prosecutor
 

GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
15,595
I like it a lot and think it felt normal. Seven years is a long time, people change a lot. Additionally, it makes sense that he'd gain an aloof sense of confidence after all of the shit he went through in the trilogy.

In 5/6 he basically goes back to the status quo inexplicably which is unfortunate though. IIRC this especially showed in 6.
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
Ema was fine

AA4 was full of people who didn't have their lives go the right way and had to adjust accordingly. It's a very interesting take but people wanted happy endings for their old characters I suppose.
 

Soulflarz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,799
God I love this thread and everyone in it, thank you for your insights

I never knew 4-5-6 was originally a second trilogy idea?
 

Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
Failure is the theme for everybody in AA4
So keeping with tradition the game failed too dammit
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,467
New York
I don't mind Ema being jaded but how they handled it felt off. Having achieved her dream career but finding it unfulfilling or that the system didn't value her expertise would have been more interesting and worked with the larger story and thrust of trying to fix how things work.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,416
AA5's biggest annoyance to me is that the game is full of coincidences - moreso than normal for AA - and instead of writing them as a plan engineered by Phoenix, they just make him surprised and in the dark about most of it when it makes sense he should know the backgrounds of his attorneys. Such a dumb regression.


His appearance


AA6 is literally all about Apollo
AA6's greatest magic trick was using Maya's return as a way to trick people into playing an Apollo Justice game lol
 

mzaiat

Member
Sep 13, 2018
8
People trash AJ too much just because of one bad case (like JFA), i still think it's better than DD and SoJ. Phoenix back as a rookie was sad.
 

t26

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,539
Hobo Phoenix allow AA4 to have the best first case in the entire series.
 

FluxWaveZ

Persona Central
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
10,887
Failure is the theme for everybody in AA4
So keeping with tradition the game failed too dammit
Even today, it's still the standalone AA release which sold the most in Japan. I don't know about numbers outside.
God I love this thread and everyone in it, thank you for your insights

I never knew 4-5-6 was originally a second trilogy idea?
With the way AA5 and AA6 go, it basically is the Apollo trilogy, isn't it?
 

Niraj

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,169
Loved AA4 Phoenix personally. Like the above poster, I really loved the atmosphere of the game as a whole.
 

BackwardCap

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
2,471
I felt more cheated by him turning back into old Wright so quickly than him having a dramatic change in personality over such a large time skip.
 

Lumination

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,438
I quite enjoyed his new persona. Aloof mentor who you no longer knew what he was thinking since you didn't play as him anymore. His and Apollo's great character development suffered because of the fan outcry.
 

edamame

Member
Oct 28, 2017
288
I always thought "Hobo Phoenix" was so cool and calculated because, to use a Batman cliche, he had prep time. He spent years gradually uncovering the truth and setting his plan into motion. Normally as a attorney he'd only have a day or two to investigate a case and come up with a defense, and most of the time some surprise twist would happen and he'd have to adjust on the fly. As Hobo Phoenix he was free of those restraints, but now that he's returned to being a defense attorney he's back under the same pressure and time limitations as before.

So combine that with the fact that he's rusty in AA5 and in AA6 he's dealing with a completely different legal system that's foreign to him, and at least for me the switch back to "old" Phoenix doesn't seem as jarring.
 

Deleted member 1273

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,232
latest


As some folks have humorously pointed out on Twitter: Pheonix Wright is disbarred from working in law on April 20th, 2019 in the Ace Attorney series' timeline.




As the RL date wraps up west of the Pacific, let me make the case of why this fictional character got one of worst instance of character derailment that has ever happened in video games.

Before Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney/Ace Attorney 4, we had three games where we played as Phoenix Wright. Three games where we knew him as this constantly flustered mess of a lawyer with a heart of gold. A lawyer who essentially bumbles his way through court proceedings and investigations. We seen his good-natured attitude get constantly thrown back his face when he got roasted and chewed-out by almost every character he comes across. We seen enough of his inner monolouging to know that he carries a bit of a sarcastic wit too. We seen all of his highs and lows but most importantly we see him constantly go against all odds to defend his clients because of his ardent belief in justice and the truth. This is the Phoenix Wright that became one of the most popular and beloved video game protagonists of all time.

But then we got the... affectionately coined Hobo Pheonix in Ace Attorney 4.

This Pheonix has spent around seven years working in a sketchy restaurant playing bad piano and cheating in poker games. He didn't take the loss of his law license well. His friendly, good-natured demeanor is all but gone. He's jaded, aloof, and more sarcastic than usual. Instead of bumbling his way to the truth, he's become this eerily competent chessmaster working in the background of the story. He gives the rookie lawyer you play as the run-around by occasionally dropping cryptic hints and duping him into present forged evidence. This Phoenix Wright manages to upend the entire court system of the United States to adopt a new jury-based system that runs on computer software he personally oversaw its creation.

Who the heck was this guy? Not the Phoenix Wright I knew in Ace Attorney, Justice For All, and Trials and Tribulations.

What's especially egregious about this phase of Phoenix Wright that as of the release of Dual Destinies/Ace Attorney 5, this literally became a phase in his life. By the time of the events of that game, his aloof hobo demeanor is gone and back is the legal idiot savant goof he we mostly known him before. When he plays the role of the mature mentor to his younger lawyer protégés, he still comes off as the same dorky guy we knew him from the original trilogy. Even that new jury-based system was replaced with the old judge-verdict system with no explanation why by Ace Attorney 5.

That entire phase of Phoenix was swept under the rug by Capcom. Evidently they felt it was a mistake. I think it was too.

Capcom has a streak of turning around beloved characters for the worse but nothing struck me as nonsensical and nearly offensive as the hobo phase of Phoenix Wright.

Haha that's me
 

Ryuman

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,593
Hobohodou is awesome. He made a huge mistake and spent 7 years picking up the pieces. The real character derailment is AA5 onwards. It's like he said after using that forged card to take Kristoph down, he wasn't fit to be a Lawyer anymore. They made the final case and his succession meaningless.
 

milkyway

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 17, 2018
3,000
I wonder if there's a correlation between people who hate Hobo Phoenix and people who hate The Last Jedi...

At any rate it is odd that they sort of swept that phase under the rug, but I think that perhaps they should not have gone back to the status quo.
 

HardRojo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,081
Peru
I actually liked this dark turn for Phoenix in AA4, though he seems like he became a kind of god who knows it all and since I have yet to play AA5 and AA6, I don't know if this personality of his translates well to the following games when we take control of him again.
 

Leeness

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,805
I liked Hobo Nick, but also missed lawyer Nick. I enjoyed both aspects of him, and while I got great pride in seeing him become a lawyer again, I also wouldn't have minded him staying a bum the entire second trilogy lol.

Basically, I'm just horribly fond of Nick.
 

Apollo

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,086
One of my absolute favorite character designs in the series. I'll always be upset they backtracked the way they did for 5 and 6. Apollo Justice was a flawed game, but it could and should have been the start of something really special.
 

Nikus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,357
Not reading every post because I'm gonna start AA5 soon but someone reassured me a few months ago, saying they didn't completely backtrack and Phoenix was indeed a bit different than before. Is that not true? I guess he can still be goofy but does it feel like he hasn't evolved at all in AA5?
 

Deleted member 51608

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 4, 2019
107
I hated Hobo Phoenix because of how it messed with all the other characters by making him so bitter and alone. You really telling me Maya, Edgeworth, Gumshoe, et all would have let Nick raise an orphan girl alone in poverty???? Even as a "ruse" it's shitty to make Trucy part of that master plan (and having her help him cheat at poker for years? Girl needs her bedtime Nick!). Maya literally runs a village for magic girls and the way they imply Maya isn't in their lives is crazy. Edgeworth is rich and connected, he also wouldn't leave Trucy to live illegally in an office rather then helping her idiot new dad. And the idea that yeah they could have helped but Nick would let them is so shitty to me from how tight and principled the characters were at the end. And Franziska would have kicked Nick's ass into accepting her charity
 
OP
OP
chaobreaker

chaobreaker

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,536
I wonder if there's a correlation between people who hate Hobo Phoenix and people who hate The Last Jedi...

At any rate it is odd that they sort of swept that phase under the rug, but I think that perhaps they should not have gone back to the status quo.

For the record, I really enjoyed TLJ. I don't think Luke Skywalker's character development is comparable to Phoenix's. For one thing, he was always a whinny hothead who makes brash decisions to his own detriment. It made his final scenes more significant as a result. I would be more comparable if he just became Space Dumbledore after RotJ.

Phoenix went from being one character to another. I don't think his transformation into a 10D chessmaster was executed well. They don't really do a good job making us believe this lawful do-gooder would become this anti-heroic spanner in the works of the entire justice system.
 
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RionaaM

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,852
I don't really mind hobo Phoenix, it's not a bad twist for the character. I'm more annoyed by him giving fake evidence to Apollo on purpose. I understand why he did it and that there was no other way, but it's still strange to see Phoenix doing something like that.

Yeah fair,

This is where I hide from the fact I didnt play AAI2
You totally should, it's fantastic and a great encore to Edgeworth's story arc. The fan translation is excellent.
 

Vareon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,791
As much as I still love AA4-6, the fact that Phoenix was a hobo longer than he was a lawyer is fucked up. It's just weird to do that to your character.
 

Piscus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,763
If anything, I found AA5 and 6 having Phoenix go back to being a bumbling idiot more offensive than his AA4 interpretation. AA4 obviously wanted to take the series in a different direction and I think Capcom chickening out and returning to the status quo is considerably more offensive than a character who experienced a crippling loss and became a more bitter person for it.
Bingo.
 

Shoe

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,180
I think I liked the idea of Hobo Phoenix and how it impacted him as a father and mentor figure, but his writing wasn't that great in AA4 and seemed totally out of character. I don't think he was all that well written in AA5/6 either, but I think at least there, they went for a single and got it, but AA4 was swinging for the fences and whiffed on his character.
 

Nali

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,641
He got so used to blundering his way through cases that when he finally suffered a catastrophic failure, yeah, it shook him. Forced him to take a step back and reevaluate his haphazard approach to life if he ever wanted to put the pieces back together. And in tandem with all that, he also suddenly had to figure out how to provide not just for himself, but for the daughter who fell into his lap, and that'll sober a man up real fast.
 

Professor Beef

Official ResetEra™ Chao Puncher
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,498
The Digital World
Hobo Wright was great it was Apollo who was lame. Thankfully SoJ had a great recovery for ol' Polly.
All that OP does is remind how great a way it was for Takumi to be like "higher ups demanding Wright when I'm trying to shake things up? well fine here's Wright and he's gone through some shit!...oh and Ema is stuck not doing what she always wanted"

While the extended period of time spent playing poker badly is a bit much, everything else I remain on board with, especially after they did reset Wright with AA5 and the franchise then began stagnating under the crushing weight of playing to nostalgia and having characters feel like they'd barely progressed in all the years.

Bless Hobo Wright, he reminds us that life has its ups and downs, and it all works out in the end as he pulls the ultimate turnabout.
Not so keen on how Apollo effectively gets buried in his own game but at least he finally got revenge with AA6.


You mean when Cena had the worst year of his life main eventing all the PPVs that champ Punk could never? a truly dark time for the Cenation.
Friend Owl I'm still shook. How did Wright AND Cena overcome those hurdles!? :(
 
Nov 1, 2017
1,380
I actually thought the transition was fine and kind of wish they stuck with it. I'm in the middle of Dual Destinies Case 1 and as OP noted I do find his return back to his original personality a bit jarring but it's a familiar comfort so I don't mind too much.
 

milkyway

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 17, 2018
3,000
For the record, I really enjoyed TLJ. I don't think Luke Skywalker's character development is comparable to Phoenix's. For one thing, he was always a whinny hothead who makes brash decisions to his own detriment. It made his final scenes more significant as a result. I would be more comparable if he just became Space Dumbledore after RotJ.

Phoenix went from being one character to another. I don't think his transformation into a 10D chessmaster was executed well. They don't really do a good job making us believe this lawful do-gooder would become this anti-heroic spanner in the works of the entire justice system.
AA4 was in general a mess and almost completely a disaster - I do think the concept of what they were trying to do with Phoenix was one of the better points though, and I think they retained enough of the 'real' Phoenix which became more evident throughout the game - albeit perhaps certain aspects of the characterization were a bit exaggerated or poorly executed.
 

Htown

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,317
Main characters in long-running franchises should be allowed to go through changes, even largely negative ones. AA4 did this to their characters, with a world that proclaims that things don't always go as you want it to, and that what life throws at you will change who you are.
dammit is this another secret The Last Jedi thread?
 

RionaaM

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,852
I hated Hobo Phoenix because of how it messed with all the other characters by making him so bitter and alone. You really telling me Maya, Edgeworth, Gumshoe, et all would have let Nick raise an orphan girl alone in poverty???? Even as a "ruse" it's shitty to make Trucy part of that master plan (and having her help him cheat at poker for years? Girl needs her bedtime Nick!). Maya literally runs a village for magic girls and the way they imply Maya isn't in their lives is crazy. Edgeworth is rich and connected, he also wouldn't leave Trucy to live illegally in an office rather then helping her idiot new dad. And the idea that yeah they could have helped but Nick would let them is so shitty to me from how tight and principled the characters were at the end. And Franziska would have kicked Nick's ass into accepting her charity
Huh, I never thought of this. You're right, where was everyone else? Even Larry Butz reaching out to Phoenix would have been nice.

Apollo Justice and his entire family are all losers
Hell no, Trucy is awesome and I won't hear anything against her!

I actually thought the transition was fine and kind of wish they stuck with it. I'm in the middle of Dual Destinies Case 1 and as OP noted I do find his return back to his original personality a bit jarring but it's a familiar comfort so I don't mind too much.
Hope you're prepared for the worst case in the entire series (not counting AA6 or the Great AAs, since I haven't played them) when case 2 starts. It's that bad. Fortunately the game gets much better later on, but The Monstrous Turnabout was terrible enough that it soured me on AA5 as a whole.
 

Polioliolio

Member
Nov 6, 2017
5,396
Apollo Justice killed it for me. I was on board for the first three games. Something about 4 just drove me out completely. I finished it, but wasn't happy about it. Never touched one since.