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Oldest Founding Father was Benjamin Franklin at 70. Youngest at Aaron Burr at 20.
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I think we can still acknowledge the "good" that they did (founding fathers) in moving forward the progress of history (even if it was a small step, and continued injustice against many) without celebrating them. Washington and Jefferson and all were still "better" than King George, simply for the fact that they allowed power to be distributed, which allowed further social progress in the future, even if it was not possible then. So simply for the act of being the match that lit the world democratic revolution over the coming centuries, they deserve recognition. Their flaws should also be remembered alongside this.
I say this as a Canadian, also. If it weren't for the American Revolution, Britain wouldn't have faced as much pressure to allow greater self-governance in their colonies, and Canada would have taken much longer (if ever) to receive self-determination and democracy. As I said, history is complex and there is no single correct way of viewing the character and actions of people in it. The founding fathers, for their time and context, did important things that moved social progress forward (and made possible other future progress by beginning the move to democracy), even if they themselves were regressive by modern standards. They don't (imo) deserve modern celebration, but they do deserve modern recognition, along with recognition of their flaws.
Agreed on all counts. There were several people around Washington that wanted him to remain in power, and several founding fathers (including Alexander Hamilton) who were staunchly for the idea of an American Empire, life-time presidential appointments, etc. The years surrounding the revolution and subsequent founding were tumultuous and the "American Experiment" could have failed many, many times. I absolutely agree that history books should include the good and bad when educating on these figures.
I swear there are more unexpected, strange facts about Ben Franklin than any other historical figure.
...what explains it? The differences in ages? The vast majority being young/middle aged?
OP
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Yeah, Angelus' quote doesn't make sense, especially because 1776 wasn't when the actual rules and conditions of the new American state were being created. That came later, towards the end of the 1780s, when most of these men were in their 30s-50s.
There is actually a lot wrong with the tweet that's the premise of this thread. In 1776 Burr and Hamilton were virtual nobodies. Same with Madison who whose involved in VA politics. 1787 is more appropriate but then this isn't as much of a talking point. Adams and Jefferson were both overseas at that time.
It's just a statue, but a statue is a celebration to the person it is of. Adding a sign or a plaque isn't going to cut it.
Look at the Colston statue in Bristol. Colston did a lot of good for Bristol, but he was a slave trader as well and murdered slaves. Do you think a simple plaque would have cut it? People felt very uncomfortable of a statue celebrating a man who murdered and enslaved. It had to go.
Love this. More people need to know the truth about the founding fathers.
King George had little power. The British Empire was not an absolute monarchy at the time and hadn't been since the end of the civil war in the 1600s.
I like alternative history. If the founding fathers had been defeated, then maybe the US wouldn't have expanded into the frontier and commited mass genocide. If they had been defeated then they wouldn't have tried to expand into and annex Canada, which was one of the reasons of the war of 1812.
We can dress this up however we like, but the founding fathers were evil bastards that should not be celebrated. We shouldn't celebrate racists and slave owners.
Same in the UK. I don't believe we should celebrate racists like Churchill. Murderous pricks like Oliver Cromwell and slave lovers like Lord Nelson.
That would have been tricky seeing as how several prominent founding fathers were from the south, including Washington. The founding fathers believed the desire for independence as a union of 13 states needed to be unanimous in order for it to work at all (and they were correct, on that). But you're idea isn't wrong, there were people who foresaw the American Civil War as an eventuality.
The follow-up would be: Do we still celebrate their accomplishments? For example, there is no denying that even just white, land-owners having the vote in the US colonies was more free (and progressive) than no vote at all. So should the act of the revolution still be celebrated? It didn't free everyone, but it did free some, and set up the system that allowed further freedoms to be slowly brought in. But if we celebrate the events, how can we not mention the people that took part in them? I am not advocating for total celebration of the people involved, but the recognition that they did these things.
All that's true, but you can't really guess about which flag our colonies would be flying under today, nor the outcomes of all the wars we participated in. Keeping us under British rules absolves us of personal responsibility similar to saying, well, if my son hadn't left the house he wouldn't have killed those people. Slavery was always evil and there were always people against it. Just not the people who founded this country, unfortunately.
The fascists in power would find the ones without red dots reprehensible.
I see nothing wrong with removing statues, agreed. It isn't a destruction of history. We can still learn about their accomplishments alongside their failings.
I am not sure that British rule would have been any different. It is not as though the British Empire ceased to expand post 1783. If the British Empire held no real power tell the people India, Arabian Peninsula and Africa how great their rule was.The US revolution contributed directly to the French Revolution which led to the rise of Napoleon and changed European history.
They at least had the forethought to form the Constitution/government as a living process, knowing that it would need to be ammended as generations went on. The idea of a Democratic Republic lead by separated branches of government and an executive who willingly leaves power to be elected by the "people" should be celebrated. But you are right in that it should not be celebrated without also discussing the people involved, and their failings.
Alexander Hamilton did indeed sign the Constitution, he was one of the three delegates of New York State.
Sorry meant to say the Declaration of Independence which is occurred in 1776.
Do we celebrate their accomplishments? They were slave traders and they treated their slaves, who were real humans by the way, no better than animals. Washington made his slaves work six days a week from dawn to dusk. They were so poorly looked after that they had to supplement their own diet by hunting and growing their own vegetables in their own time. He didn't give a shit about their personal relationships either, forcing fathers to work in another location away from their wives and children, meaning the family could only see each other one day a week. Don't get me started on Washington's teeth either.
You expect people to celebrate this? And what about the US and UK? How did both nations become so powerful in the first place?
They are the nations they are today because they were built from violence, genocide, war and slavery. The blood of millions is the cost of these nations, yet we celebrate the people who spilled the blood because of their other achievements.
It's a shame reading some of these replies because I thought this place was far more progressive.
On that you're absolutely correct. Hamilton and Burr were complete nobodies back then.
Agreed. I am not sure if you're a US citizen, hut how would you feel about removing Mt Rushmore (or replacing the racist ones at least) or removing all monuments of the founding fathers?
In the UK I'd be fine with getting rid of Churchill statues and monuments. I'd try and be there to rip it down if I could lol.
I would argue that posting the same things over and over, and having others agree is pretty far from progressive.
We have a nation built by horrible people with great ideas who inspired great people with great ideas.
We don't really gain anything by leaving out parts of history. We are after all discussing history, not building monuments or glorifying people.
I am a US citizen, and honestly I'm fine with statues and monuments being removed. I don't believe it's erasing history. We still have museums, we still have history books (that should be reviewed, updated, etc to ensure that history is being portrayed as accurately as we can). I think we should recognize the people involved with our founding, the ideas that lead to our founding, the history around it, and I think we should absolutely recognize, understand, and learn from their failings as well (not the least of which is slavery). The history of slavery is a huge element that we need to be better about teaching in schools.
Errr... Sam Adams? Was important in the beginning since he helped essentially kick off the Boston Tea Party but now people only know him for his face on beer, like how Yamcha was important in DB but is now generally most known for his "Yamcha dead" pose?
Yeah I think this puts it pretty succinctly.
And this is good lol
I know this is an emotional topic, but please don't read into my arguments. I never said we should celebrate their accomplishments, I said we should recognize them. I am all for removing statues (though perhaps keeping the most famous, in museums).
It is true that the US is a powerful nation today because of slavery. However, it is also true that it was the first modern democracy, and because of this, has fast-forwarded social progress across the western world. The British Empire was also horrible, but it also laid the foundations for what came after (democracy in its colonies, ending of slavery, etc). We should recognize the flaws of the past while also recognizing the steps it took to bring us to where we are today (which is a better time than the past).
So for someone like Washington, who personally profited from slavery, we need to recognize that he was a bad person by modern standards, a flawed person by the standards of his time, and someone who helped move forward social progress by bringing democracy to some people, which then led to it being brought to others in time. He was a flawed person who played an important role in the social progress of history, and we need to remember that and teach it, but not celebrate him as a person.
I don't know if they were horrible by the standards of their time.
They certainly were not perfect but there is a wide chasm between perfect and monster.
I am sure if you look at at almost all "great" men and women who have changed the world or even tried to they will always be judged to be horrible and self centered in some ways (and probably rightfully so). Though I agree with your take on how to handle the founders I am just not sure they were horrible by the standards of their time. That was a very different world and life was in general much harsher.
Owning slaves was, even if despised by some/many, considered a necessary economic evil of the period. Actually, it's really very similar to current economic exploitation of labourers in Malaysia, China, etc. I guarantee that each of us discussing this is wearing a piece of clothing sewn by exploited labour in near-slave like conditions in Asia...but are we doing anything to stop it? One response is that there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, so all we can do is our best to avoid bad things...but that was the same attitude in the time of the founding fathers, as well. Perhaps all of us will be judged monsters in the future because we did not actively devote our lives to freeing people in Asia from serving our consumption needs. Perhaps the future will be right. But that doesn't mean the other things we are doing now (BLM, trans rights, etc) aren't also important and valid.
Philly represented by the coolest founding father, Ben Franklin. Now he plays power forward for the Sixers.
Sorry. I agree we should learn and recognise rather than celebrate these people.
The US wasn't the first modern democracy was it? I thought it was the Corsican Republic? Possibly something even before then as well?
The British Empire was so disgusting that I class the union symbol as a hate symbol, but that's another topic.
We agree that statues and monuments should be removed, but put where they belong in a museum.
I'd go as far as to say Washington was a bad person for standards of his day. I am pretty sure the slaves owned didn't look to him in a positive light. He brought democracy to white people only and enslaved the rest, but I agree all aspects of him and what he did need to be taught.
Like I truly beg you all to stop relying on the history lessons you had (even to inform your views to the contrary) and read the primary texts from those who lived under the heel of this elite group of men.
Abolition of slavery was not some far off twinkle but a real and present threat. The Founders were not just evil by our standards but their own at well. People at the time recognized their evils and hypocrisy of speech.
Suggested texts: Silencing History & Force and Freedom.
Abolition of slavery was not some far off twinkle but a real and present threat. The Founders were not just evil by our standards but their own at well. People at the time recognized their evils and hypocrisy of speech.
Suggested texts: Silencing History & Force and Freedom.
I wonder if Franklin would have made a 3 pointer in a game before Simmons.Philly represented by the coolest founding father, Ben Franklin. Now he plays power forward for the Sixers.
Haha Thomas Jefferson raped a 14 year old girl repeatedly.
Also all of them except for Thomas Painehttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Johnson
Also all of them except for Thomas Painehttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Johnson
"I haven't showered or brushed my teeth in weeks and everyone says I smell great!"
Not to mention half the southern states had laws making it extremely difficult to free slaves even if you just inherited them(basically double bankruptcy), it's not as easy as people try to portray it, those in power who wanted slavery did their hardest to keep it from being dismantled. Look up Virginia's Slave release laws from that era
Thomas Paine is not a founding father. He had political influence in the era but was not involved in the major events
Most of these guys went to college at 14 and had large enterprises by 18. A number also memorized the entire bible in several languages as well. Prior to 1903 ish grades weren't by age but by competetency. If you were smart and dedicated you could graduate school ahead of everyone else your age
As others have said, this was at the start of the revolution. By the time the actual constitution was being created and the government was being formed, they were in their 30s/40s.
By all accounts, John Adams was a pretty stand up guy. Unfortunately, he's also, the most over-looked of them all.