Old time JRPG fans - what's your current stance on its current direction?

[sir_crocodile]

This post somehow seems to summarize the doom and gloom and cynicism here.

I disagree wholeheartedly. My all time favourite jrpg's are definitely from the 90's. Why? Because I was a teenager and most other best things in life such as music and comic books are also from that age. It's how our minds work.

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Trying to couch this as a nostalgia thing is pretty disingenuous. It's the systems within the games that have changed and what is lacking to me in modern rpgs, it's this new level of pandering to otaku culture which has changed.

But to say that the games are generally worse and there are fewer of them is just plain wrong. There have been amazing plethora of great jrpg's across the systems in the last decade and even the last few years. There are great indies and exclusives and long running series sequels.

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That they are generally worse is my opinion so considering it to be "plain wrong" is in itself plain wrong. Even if you look at professional reviews it's not like JRPGs are particularly well regarded outside of a few tentpole franchises and the odd surprise that actually *does* do interesting things with its story or battle system, so its not as if your opinion here is particularly well supported.

That there are less of them is objectively true and I don't know why you're pretending it is not. If you compare PSX/Saturn to PS4/Switch (removing rereleases and ports) it's clear, and thats with the barrier for development being far lower today then it was in the 90s, and taking into account that Switch probably has about 2 years of releases left.

And to top that all off there are more options to play the legacy and retro games than there have ever been.

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This is meaningless for this topic, which is regarding the current direction of JRPGs.

Just because we are growing older and are simply not capable of being young again doesn't mean the options today are far worse than before.

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This is true, yet the options today are far worse than before.

 

[Morrigan]

Speaking of recent JRPGs, Octopath Traveler is -50% in the current Steam sale.

Is it worth it at $30?

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Yes, it's a great game. Probably the best battle system I've seen in a JRPG, and the art/music is sublime. Story isn't great but it's serviceable enough.

Me, back in the PS1 days: Wow, Final Fantasy Tactics is great! I look forward to more games like this in the future.

The future:

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But JRPGs were always anime, so they're the same thing! /s

 

[raketenrolf]

We may never reach the highs of the PS1 era ever again but there are some amazing games out there.

I personally don't really care about the idea factory, compile heart etc stuff - there's enough games out there to easily ignore those.

Sakura Wars, all the Yakuza games, Persona/SMT, Nier, Trials of Mana, Ni-Oh etc. . Sega is great this gen when it comes to RPGs but SE is a bit disappointing considering they were the kings of JRPGs back then. They don't bring much good stuff aside from FF, some rereleases or remakes. The Tokyo RPG Factory might be my biggest disappointment this gen as I was hoping they would make some amazing games.

Also missing Konami and Capcom. They have some amazing franchises that got either untouched for years or had some weird stuff released that barely anyone cared about (remember BoF6?).

 

[fertygo]

The real one know to switch to gacha games tbh

 

[sirap]

I've fallen off them, hard. Has nothing to do with the overall quality of the genre, I just prefer turn-based combat and there's just not a lot of them available.

 

[EarthPainting]

The "current direction" is pretty broad, so I can't complain too much. I do wish they leaned less into some tropes and questionable writing and design decisions, but that problem's not new. I suppose I don't really like the direction of Final Fantasy games as much any more, but that's just one franchise, and it's still got tons of fans. As long as it still has an audience, it doesn't bother me that I'm no longer part of it. It'd be a much bigger shame if it used to be beloved, but now nobody cares about it any more.

Also why are people talking about Xenogears as if it doesn't open with an FMV where a lady has her butt out, and then not long after a kid tells you that you should marry his sister because she's busty?

Let's get back to characters having their own relationships and not waiting around for the MC to date them. I don't need any dating sim stuff in my RPGs.

In general, I would prefer the protagonist to be a part of a world and a story rather than the center of the universe.

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Definitely agree with this though. Set-ups like these can so easily hinder the world-building and the fleshing out of your cast.

 

[DrHercouet]

RPG nowadays vary from soulsborn / The Witcher games to P5R anime fest to c r i n g e, but there is a little something for everyone. I am currently revisiting FF6 and this game has AGED! I wouldn't say this is a golden age for RPGs, but I feel like there are many games for me.

remember BoF6?

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Oh god, I had to google it. Now I'm sad.

Also why are people talking about Xenogears as if it doesn't open with an FMV where a lady has her butt out, and then not long after a kid tells you that you should marry his sister because she's busty?

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Yeah haha, every Xeno game has a serious load of anime tropes, and we still haven't even begun to cover Xenosaga...

 

[Flygon]

I just want more Shining Force games that are Shining Force games.

Not the... whatever the... hell they're doing with the franchise now.

 

[Kromeo]

There's still as many games I enjoy coming out as I have time to play

 

[FakePlasticTree]

Persona 5 Royal, the new story they added into the game has me hopeful for the next entry, I don't particularly care for Yakuza turning into an RPG but 7 is certainly a good game, FFXIV is excellent as well then there is Nier which is more an action game now though. Dragon Quest XI is also great. I think there is always enough good titles to come around that I never find having to convince myself that "insert genre" was better back in the day. The jarring sexualized pandering is awful and it's been there since Final Fantasy VII. Hope that changes though.
I've played a lot of Zodiac Age recently, and I really wish we could get more games from minds like Yatsumi Matsuno with adult protagonists for sure.

 

[Camisado]

They need to drop all the anime garbage and get back to telling great stories with interesting characters.

 

[Briareos]

Octopath and Bravely Default II got me happy for old school style rpgs.

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Yup, almost everything else has been disappointing this generation. NNK, Ys, DQ, Xenoblade, FF12 remake, FF7 remake, etc., all either treading water or regressing against broader progress in the industry. Octopath at least broke the savior trope and changed up structure in a great way, although it has some of its own issues.

 

[BassForever]

Loving it may be too strong, but considering the variety of titles we get I'm perfectly happy with the genre. We get such a wide variety of games and most of them are generally really good which makes me happy.

 

[Tibarn]

I think that JRPGs now are gameplay-wise better than ever.

You have some amazing takes on turn-based combat like Octopath or the Trails series, some good real-time combat games like Berseria or the Wii classic The Last Story, or even games inspired in MMO combat like Xenoblade games. Same with other gameplay aspects, there are still JRPGs with classic progression and world maps like Bravely Default, but also games with vast open world like the Xenoblade series or JRPGs with a simulator aspect like Persona.

About the writing and stories, on one hand I agree that modern anime tropes are everywhere in JRPGs (the same way older anime tropes were in older JRPGs), but there are still interesting stories to experience with modern games, and I feel that we tend to be really nostalgic about SNES/PSX JRPG writing, I have been playing some classics like FFVI/VII or Chrono Trigger recently, and while the games are still amazing, the dialogues (and localization) were not that good and the games felt confusing frequently. Maybe it was a limitation of space or number of characters or whatever, and it has its charm, but I don't think using the same style nowadays will work.

 

[Lagamorph]

Needs no lolis but more dating sim mechanics. I hate the "will they won't they" romance elements a lot of JRPGs go with but never actually resolve (I'm looking at you Tales Of series, especially Xillia!)

 

[Jafin]

I used to be quite into JRPGs in the GBA days but I'm really not a fan of the way battle systems have..."evolved" since then. I really enjoy the turn based combat of games like the older Final Fantasy games and Golden Sun series. A little added flair is cool to have, such as the Djinn system in GS altering your your class and abilities depending on their elements, but I really don't like all this running around the battlefield stuff in later games like FF XII etc. My love for JRPGs really waned in recent years but I bought Dragon Quest XI for PC on a whim while it was on sale earlier this year and it completely reinvigorated my love for the genre, so I'm currently investigating ways of playing past titles in the series as well as other JRPGs that may be similar.

All in all, not really a fan of a lot of today's JRPGs, but thrilled to have finally discovered the Dragon Quest series and excited to see XII when it's eventually revealed as well as other classic style JRPGs.

 

[tenisilin234]

jrpgs back in the day were pretty boring. only one that i replayed and enjoyed ws ff6

 

[OrangeNova]

It's mostly trash now.

But it follows the trends of anime. Slayers was a Fanservice anime back in the day, and I'd say games like Tales of Destiny, Grandia, Lunar, etc, all fit into that era's "Fanservice" anime niche.

 

[Necromanti]

I feel like people mentioning games that are a decade old as examples of good modern JRPGs kind of prove the point of the OP.

jrpgs back in the day were pretty boring. only one that i replayed and enjoyed ws ff6

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The game from your avatar is a whole decade closer to FF6 than it is to present day, though. I'd argue that would be classified as "back in the day".

 

[Kutaragi]

I loved them back in the past but I was indifferent for so many years (didn't finished Lost Odyssey because I was bored to death).

In 2020 I played FFXV and now I'm totally in love with Genshin Impact, so I guess I'm in the honeymoon phase.

Weeb or death!
No waifu no laifu!!!

 

[tenisilin234]

The game from your avatar is a whole decade closer to FF6 than it is to present day, though. I'd argue that would be classified as "back in the day".

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ya nocturne too it has some flaws but they seem to be getting fixed in the remaster. other then that not alot of old school jrpgs i enjoy as much as the new ones.

 

[CoinReturn]

Voice acting ruined JRPGs.

 

[Clive]

I probably spent 80%+ of my gaming time on JRPGs up until the PS360 generation but I just can't get into them anymore. The only ones I end up thinking are anything above just "good/competent" are games that lean heavily on nostalgia such as FF7R and DQ11. I'm almost at the point of completely abandoning the genre because of how much time you need to invest before knowing if the game will be something you really enjoy. I don't want to invest 30+ hours into a game that is only "good".

I wouldn't blame it on the quality going down but I feel there are other genres that capture the massive world adventure feel better these days. That includes non-traditional Japanese RPGs like Soulsborne games. Value is also less of an issue for me these days. As a kid it was amazing getting 40 hours of play time from a single game or even more but these days you can get that play time from other genres or a monthly subscription service like Game Pass. I also have more money than I did as a kid.

 

[cyklisten]

This feels like a boomer/"rose-tinted glasses" take

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And yet it´s not. I haven´t been able to play an jrpg for 10 yrs without stumbling over excessive sexual pandering (maybe with the exeption of DQ11 and SMTIV).

It´s always a teenage boy as the chosen one with the same cast of 4 characters: Rough older dude/dumb tough friend, sexualized girl companion with outlandish body features, shy timid girl (usually in the loli segment) who´s envious of the sexualized girl companion and the "Wacky" and "fun" animal/monster character.

I know that some of these tropes where present in older games, but it was nowhere near as bad and:

With how many games that are actually getting published, it´s astounding how alike and streamlined every game is. Instead of varying the experiences the industry has just doubled down on doing the same shit for years.

Me, back in the PS1 days: Wow, Final Fantasy Tactics is great! I look forward to more games like this in the future.

The future:

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Ugh, you made me remember Stella Glow. Disgusting game.

 

[Big Tex]

I cant stand JRPGs any more. I have tried so hard to get back into them, but FF7 Remake was the final straw. The grunting, overacting and brooding did me in. Quit after 5 hours or so.

 

[Neoleo2143]

In terms of games like Vagrant Story, FFT and Front Mission? Yeah I don't think the genre as is services people who liked those kinds of games. Rather serious games with grimmer tones and aesthetics, though grim and dark jrpgs do exist such as Dragon Star Varnir, Death's End Re:quest or Labyrinth of Refrain.

But there are still jrpgs with a very large massive scope which still explore interesting ideas like FFXIV, Trails or Xenoblade 2+Torna. Or give off a classic jrpg feeling like Dragon Quest 11. Or focus on intimate locations with a lot of detail like Yakuza: Like a Dragon.

So for me, I'm hopeful for games like Eiyuden and I really enjoyed quite a lot of games even if I'm generally rather critical of a lot of games.

 

[KingK]

Used to be among my favorite genres, and now I can't stand most of them. The sexualization, dating, and generally creepy bullshit has become so goddamn pervasive that I can't enjoy the games.

Fire Emblem has been one of my favorite series since they started coming to NA on the GBA. Fates on the 3DS nearly killed the entire series for me because of that creepy bullshit. I was ready to never go back, and took a lot of convincing to even give Three Houses a chance. I'm glad I did, because it's a step in the right direction, but they seriously just need to drop the goddamn dating shit and creepy sexualization (what the fuck with those "tea parties")

And while that's my biggest issue with modern JRPGs by far, I also am not a fan of the widespread abandonment of turn-based battle systems. I like both turn-based and action-based systems, but I do prefer the former and it's unfortunate that they're so rare now. Also as others have mentioned, the globe trotting grand adventure with a diverse overworld map vibe is much less common these days too.

The state of the JRPG is fucking miserable. Annoying kid protagonists, high schools, idols, maids, and dating mechanics crammed into every game. Constant objectification of female characters.

It makes me so sad. I miss the genre but there's no saving it anymore. Less companies make them, and the few that are left are all-in on otaku bullshit.

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Yup, nailed it.

 

[Pilgrimzero]

JRPGs peaked in the SNES era. It's been downhill since then.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Kind of wish we'd go back to the edgelord sentiment of the late 90s/early 2k. It looks like FFXVI is bringing back the grim dark. Ive had enough of this friendship is power bullshit. That and getting back to this sense of a grand adventure without giving prominence to some of the more trite aspects of young adult writing.

They need to drop all the anime garbage and get back to telling great stories with interesting characters.

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Ultimately this is what its all about

 

[sir_crocodile]

JRPGs peaked in the SNES era. It's been downhill since then.

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I'd go later then that. Games like Breath of Fire 3, Panzer Dragoon Saga, Shining Force 3, Grandia, Suikoden, etc on the Saturn/PSX are all superb. PS2 gen was a decline but there was still a lot of great stuff around, and PS3 gen was the massive collapse due to HD.

 

[RM8]

I disagree wholeheartedly. My all time favourite jrpg's are definitely from the 90's. Why? Because I was a teenager and most other best things in life such as music and comic books are also from that age. It's how our minds work.

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I don't know about this. I think plenty of my favorite series across different genres have seen their best-ever entries recently. It's not impossible to realize something has been improved over what you thought was great when you were a teenager.

It doesn't take a lot of nostalgia to point out that I never had to blow on a waifu's face in a game until recently.

 

[Kanann]

Some I don't like (dating sim, egdelordness, amateur writing in most of them).
Some I like (current state of DQ, FF, Megatens, Souls series, The maximum weeb shit Xenoblade, etc. and many many more that's improve a lot and has potential to do so)

I also enjoy ERAs having a phobia of them in this thread a lot, so keep it as it is, especially Xenoblade.

 

[daninthemix]

I prefer the 90s style of RPG to what we generally have now. But in addition to that I've kind of moved on from the genre anyway. So J-RPGs are doubly disinteresting to me today.

 

[werezompire]

I feel like the indie scene (both Western & Japanese) could really help shore up the genre, in a similar way that mid-budget games did in the PS2 era.

For SRPG fans, I've heard good things about Fell Seal, Fae Tactics, and Trouble Shooter, all of which are currently discounted in the Steam Winter sale. Will probably pick up a few myself.

 

[EntelechyFuff]

They need to drop all the anime garbage and get back to telling great stories with interesting characters.

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What's frustrating to me is that the excuses I hear don't make sense. Sales numbers, increasing production cost, etc. are generally given as reasons, but I don't understand why that would stop anyone from making a cheap, PS1 style RPG with no VA and a great story and characters.

Making Xenogears in the 90s was probably very expensive. Making an RPG in a very similar style now would be considerably cheaper I'd expect. No harems/moe/whatever else necessary.

 

[werezompire]

What's frustrating to me is that the excuses I hear don't make sense. Sales numbers, increasing production cost, etc. are generally given as reasons, but I don't understand why that would stop anyone from making a cheap, PS1 style RPG with no VA and a great story and characters.

Making Xenogears in the 90s was probably very expensive. Making an RPG in a very similar style now would be considerably cheaper I'd expect. No harems/moe/whatever else necessary.

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The problem is that the big JRPG companies mostly just want to do AAA games (FF15) or dirt-cheap experiment games (Octopath/Bravely) - there's nothing in-between. That's what they're set up for.

Speaking from personal experience, making Cosmic Star Heroine was prohibitively difficult/expensive for an indie team. Doing something like Xenogears would be a lot harder than CSH was. It's way out of the scope of most indie developers.

 

[NewDayMarch]

There was a four-to-six year period in the 90s when, in addition to the depth of the writing, JRPGs also happened to some of the most graphically impressive games on the planet. It's a time when a lot of us fell in love with the genre, and it can be hard to want more games of that ilk while admitting that very few games will have the budget to compete in that area anymore.

There's still a vibe and an energy to a JRPG (particularly the first few hours, which I still believe are done better in JRPGs than in any other genre-and i'm thinking of recent games like Persona 5) that I absolutely love. But I have to come to terms with the fact that they are generally aimed at a younger demographic than i'm in right now (teenagers), and writing-wise just isn't as satisfying or challenging now that i've seen most of the topes multiple times.

I find my relationship with Final Fantasy to be similar to a lot of peoples feelings to Star Wars-an absolutely magical part of your growth as a person, and a defining part of your taste, but quality-wise it's just very inconsistent. I can't even put my favourite FFs in my Top 10 (besides Tactics) because no other classic game I hold at that level require a Fast-Foward Button to be playable in 2020.

 

[AnimaRize]

What's frustrating to me is that the excuses I hear don't make sense. Sales numbers, increasing production cost, etc. are generally given as reasons, but I don't understand why that would stop anyone from making a cheap, PS1 style RPG with no VA and a great story and characters.

Making Xenogears in the 90s was probably very expensive. Making an RPG in a very similar style now would be considerably cheaper I'd expect. No harems/moe/whatever else necessary.

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they don't care if it is cheaper as long as it makes money, bandai refused to make a xenosaga remaster (despite xenoblades popularity) because they didn't think it would make money, remember this was a remaster which is essentially an enhanced port some of the cheapest things to produce and they said no, if there is no money it doesn't sells, and since ps1 anime sells

 

[Hu3]

Remove the dating sim shit
Remove the lolitas
Remove the waifu bullshit
The power of friendship

Jesus Christ.

 

[EntelechyFuff]

The problem is that the big JRPG companies mostly just want to do AAA games (FF15) or dirt-cheap experiment games (Octopath/Bravely) - there's nothing in-between. That's what they're set up for.

Speaking from personal experience, making Cosmic Star Heroine was prohibitively difficult/expensive for an indie team. Doing something like Xenogears would be a lot harder than CSH was. It's way out of the scope of most indie developers.

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This is incredibly valuable input from someone who has been on the dev side. Thanks! 🙂

I'm curious what aspects of a JRPG like CSH made it so costly (in both terms of time & money) that are unique compared with non-RPG indie development? If there's some already existing post-mortem on the development of CSH I'd be happy to read it.

 

[AnimaRize]

Remove the dating sim shit
Remove the lolitas
Remove the waifu bullshit
The power of friendship

Jesus Christ.

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that one i am sorry to say will never leave too many highly popular media uses it, they would have to lose popularity and considering the still massively popular shounen genre, every jrpg will continue to use that trope

 

[tenisilin234]

^^

you can even say the same about dating sim and waifus to a lesser extent. look at how persona sky rocketed above smt in popularity. i dont think there was any other reason (correct me if im wrong) that p3(i think) and p4 dunked on smt. people love the dating sim and waifu stuff. they also love the whole "live in the shoes of a Japanese high schooler" stuff. and tbh i liked some of those things in p5 to an extent as well. it made the game feel cozy.

the sexualized loli stuff may definitely get the boot eventually. they dont look good and dont help to bring in new viewers. and they are just weird

this thread has gotten me interested...has there been a boost in popularity and sale with jrpgs between "back in the day" and now?

 

[Deleted member 4090]

The problem is that the big JRPG companies mostly just want to do AAA games (FF15) or dirt-cheap experiment games (Octopath/Bravely) - there's nothing in-between. That's what they're set up for.

Speaking from personal experience, making Cosmic Star Heroine was prohibitively difficult/expensive for an indie team. Doing something like Xenogears would be a lot harder than CSH was. It's way out of the scope of most indie developers.

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Under no definition of the term is Octopath Traveler "dirt cheap". The amount of sprite work in the game totally dwarves nearly any RPG from the 90s in terms of raw volume. There's like, full sets of combat sprites for about 300-400 characters, and each of those characters has 3-8x the number of sprites of the Final Fantasy job/character combos.

OT has a design that is reminiscent of old games, but is vastly larger than the games Western audiences would associate it with. OT is what you get when an experienced producer throws a lot of money at an old style, but giving it freedom to also do its own thing. At a budget estimated between 10 and 20 million, Octopath is definitely that in-between.

EDIT: I can't find any articles that quote the estimated budget range, but I recall it being in the teens somewhere.

 

[Sectorseven]

There was definitely a feeling of prestige they no longer carry, especially from like 1995-2000 or so.

 

[Deleted member 17210]

in the 16-bit era, it is the difference between playing JRPGs on Nintendo systems and PC-Engine or Japanese PC platforms.

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Yeah, formats like PC-98 were full of very anime styled JRPGs. But I think even the pervy JRPGs on those had less creepy designs on average compared to a lot of today's stuff. Back then more of the female characters looked like adults.

 

[EddyLovesTunaRolls]

I've been addicted to Granblue Fantasy for years even though it's gacha trash. Mostly because the battle system kind of feels like something straight out of a JRPG.

There's even one boss that casts zombie on your whole party at one point in the fight then heals you to full hp later which kills everyone if they're still zombified which is hilarously dirty.

 

[looprider]

I think the genre is doing much better than it was during the doldrums of the PS3 era. The problem is that the genre still hasn't grown up in many ways. Stories still revolve around a (male) youth and his hero's journey. I'd love to see more JRPG's with adult protagonists or that just feel a little more mature. FFVIIR is a good example of this IMO despite it having Cloud as the lead (young male). The game feels grown up in a way many recent JRPGs don't. And it treats its female characters with dignity.

100% agree that we need fewer games with harem elements and weird/creepy sexualization. Focus on telling an epic story, introducing us to new characters, and keep innovating on RPG mechanics.

 

[OmegaDL50]

you have to convert for era standards, so dreadful actually means pretty good

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Probably the worst carry-over from the old forum. Seems a there is no room for moderate opinions anymore.

I seldom see folks discuss something they like or dislike without addressing some pro or con. It's either the "Insta-GOTY" Or "Dumpster fire garbage-tier" with no room for anything in between. This is probably worst discussion trend for the past couple of years and it makes for very poor discourse.

 

[CaptainBojangles]

Agree with loads of your examples but I was really disappointed with these two, although as you say, they are on the lower end of the fanservice scale compared to some others mentioned in this thread. SMTIV: Apocalypse bolts some anime teen harem tropes onto the SMT apocalypse setting with one girl as a creepy stalker, and Valkyria Chronicles 4 has a major character as the 'redeemable team pervert' assaulting NPCs (and getting a kicking for it) combined with an eye-rollingly bad hot springs scene. It's in a DLC but it's obvious who exactly who the scenes are catering for. Both games are a huge step down from their predecessors and visably take the worst influences from the fanservice trends.
I think it's more just that they felt like disappointments on the topic compared to previous entries.

I've still got hopes for SMTV turning it around after Fire Emblem managed to pull itself out of the gutter though.

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Gonna be honest. I forgot SMT IV Apocalypse even existed when I made that post lmao

 

[Redcrayon]

Gonna be honest. I forgot SMT IV Apocalypse even existed when I made that post lmao

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Lol, not surprising :D It actually did some fun stuff with the Celtic deities etc rather than the usual law/chaos stuff, just a shame about the party and harem/power of friendship/crowbarred-in swimwear scene crap. Final dungeon was an overly-long snorefest too.