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Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,728
WB did this 10 years ago with Arkham Asylum series. That's why when I saw the scene my reaction was not "Awesome! Amazing! Spectacular!" but more "about time he fights like the Batman we know".
Same here really. I don't think that anyone can fault it for not being visually entertaining to watch, but it's visually entertaining the exact way that the Arkham games are, to the point where in the past I've argued you could recreate the scene in the games almost in it's entirety with the animations in place.

I'm not a major stickler for batman not killing people like some here, but once I get past the psychopathy he displays in the movie in general, and the fact that narratively it's treated as some kind of return to form for him as a hero when he's just redirecting his sadism, all I'm left with is thinking "Heh, that's a nice way of rendering Arkham Gameplay in live action."
 

Badcoo

Member
May 9, 2018
1,616
JL TAS -
Doctor Destiny - You're different. You don't have any powers.
Batman - Oh but I do. I never give up.
(Goosebumps)

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
 

Kapten

Avenger
Nov 1, 2017
1,448
I think Batman has killed in basically all live action versions except for West.

Burtons Batman killed so amazingly many. With a smile.
 

Ruisu

Banned
Aug 1, 2019
5,535
Brasil
he doesn't kill anyone in the room. except for the guy with the flamethrower threatening Martha. and the guy who got a crate thrown against his head. and the guy with the grenade. and the two guys who Batman punched so hard his head went through the floor.

but other then that, he didn't kill anyone.
Sounds like every Batman ever tbh.
 

UltimateHigh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,500
It's telling that the only positive thing people bring up in regards to Snyder's Batman is that warehouse scene.
 

gappvembe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
779
tumblr_nrp9055mVo1qfr6udo1_500.gif
 

Ruisu

Banned
Aug 1, 2019
5,535
Brasil
You have 3 options with Batman really.

Batman kills. The intensity is optional, he can execute criminals or he can be like in BvS and just not care if bad guys die.

Batman still kills. But we totally believe he doesn't, these guys are just unconscious. I just want my violent vigilante to crack skulls in a totally non lethal way.

Batman is a parody. Like Adam West or Lego Batman. I can see why people prefer this, because at least it's more honest that the second option.
 

SasaBassa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,155
Eh, best scene is probably Falcone talking to Bruce in the bar. Did a helluva job.

Joker at Wayne's party with the slowly rising siren is also pretty chilling. Or take your pick from mask of the phantasm, the actual best batman movie.

The will to act is also phenomenal. God begins is really the best in Nolanverse.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,728
You have 3 options with Batman really.

Batman kills. The intensity is optional, he can execute criminals or he can be like in BvS and just not care if bad guys die.

Batman still kills. But we totally believe he doesn't, these guys are just unconscious. I just want my violent vigilante to crack skulls in a totally non lethal way.

Batman is a parody. Like Adam West or Lego Batman. I can see why people prefer this, because at least it's more honest that the second option.
I want a take where Batman doesn't want to kill, but understand that he inevitably will in the pursuit of fighting crime. He just tries his damndest to avoid it like Sisyphus pushing the boulder up a hill he knows the boulder will roll down on and he is always waiting and doing everything he can to prevent it. And I mean he takes active measures. Like, he will leap off a building just to grab a criminal he pushed off in the midst of fighting and he will save a thug from drowning if he falls into the water. He has a medical kit ready in his utility belt to treat a variety of injuries that. He will perform CPR as needed and stay until ambulances arrive. And criminals are just wierded the fuck out by this, because he still kicks the shit out of them. Breaks their legs and so on, everything. Hell, I'd even go father and have him use really unconventional and nasty means that you don't see action heroes using like mace and have him go for enemies eyes or kick them in the balls really hard to put them down, none of the usually heroic noble fisticuffs or martial arts he goes for, so it's not like he's easy on them, but while he'll beat the everloving shit out of them to points of excess, he will not let them fucking die.

And the writer basically maintains that as long as is narratively appropriate until it finally happens and someone dies.
 

Ruisu

Banned
Aug 1, 2019
5,535
Brasil
I want a take where Batman doesn't want to kill, but understand that he inevitably will in the pursuit of fighting crime. He just tries his damndest to avoid it like Sisyphus pushing the boulder up a hill he knows the boulder will roll down on and he is always waiting and doing everything he can to prevent it. And I mean he takes active measures. Like, he will leap off a building just to grab a criminal he pushed off in the midst of fighting and he will save a thug from drowning if he falls into the water. He has a medical kit ready in his utility belt to treat a variety of injuries that. He will perform CPR as needed and stay until ambulances arrive. And criminals are just wierded the fuck out by this, because he still kicks the shit out of them. Breaks their legs and so on, everything. Hell, I'd even go father and have him use really unconventional and nasty means that you don't see action heroes using like mace and have him go for enemies eyes or kick them in the balls really hard to put them down, none of the usually heroic noble fisticuffs or martial arts he goes for, so it's not like he's easy on them, but while he'll beat the everloving shit out of them to points of excess, he will not let them fucking die.

And the writer basically maintains that as long as is narratively appropriate until it finally happens and someone dies.
That would surely work with a genuinely insane Batman. Because at some point he'll just seems like a huge sadist. I would like a story that did that intentionally though. Usually when Batman works to keep alive the people he's beating up badly it's treated as this huge moral high ground and I just can't with that lol
 

BigMack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
566
Mask of the Phantasm and Spiderverse being the best movies of each hero just prove we should have more high budget animated super-hero movies
This. I've long wondered why Disney hasn't had Pixar do a Marvel or Star Wars movie yet. Hell, I'd even take a Walt Disney Animation Studios attempt at one
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,728
That would surely work with a genuinely insane Batman. Because at some point he'll just seems like a huge sadist. I would like a story that did that intentionally though. Usually when Batman works to keep alive the people he's beating up badly it's treated as this huge moral high ground and I just can't with that lol
I'm not saying I reject that interpretation, of him being insane, but if he were accused of that in-universe, he'd say "What, and letting them suffer and possibly die is more sane?"

The intriguing thing about Batman, and why I find Facehugger's well intentioned and obviously sincere love for the warehouse scene so disagreeable, is that Batman is at his best when the writer is mixing his compassion and respect with his dislike of crime and the criminals he's fighting. The warehouse scene is so uninteresting because it's just him beating up a base of faceless, unambiguously evil goons that have no real chance of beating him. People love the killing joke, but they mostly seem to like how tortured the Joker is in that story and ignore Batman. Whereas what I find interesting about it is that this is one story where Batman is trying to just....end their fighting, because he is trying to see the Joker as a fellow human being and the joker is, in a really twisted way, trying to do the same. It's a comic about how two broken men are trying to find a genuine emotional connection.

Batman's always meme'd as a billionaire who goes out to punch poor people where if he really wanted to help, he'd use his billions to fix society, and I don't disagree there is something to that, and others want to see Batman as an ideal hero that has nothing but warm fuzzies for his enemies and the all the fighting is a frustrating and depressing part of the job he is forced to do. I kind of want both. I want a batman that does actually enjoy the violence and righteousness of being a hero, but refuses to dehumanize his enemies and will always see their lives as worth saving. So he's not in denial that he enjoys life as batman, but isn't dehumanizing about the pain he's causing, and is kind of aware that the situation is kind of fucked up...

...but in my version of the story, Gotham is also fucked up. That's the other part, Bruce isn't just one wierd dude in a normal city, the entirety of Gotham culture is very unlike the rest of the DC superhero universe. Like, not just the supervillain/superhero parts of it, all of Gotham culture is like Florida but instead of stupid it's gothic-y and cruel and angry and fuck you. Like, for example, kids aren't taught that they need to be loving and compassionate like in kids cartoons are here. Their cartoons don't preach being proactively violent, but if a child were to hit another child, both teachers and parents would be like "What, and you didn't beat the shit out of him back?" to the kid who was attacked and that would be considered the appropriate and moral response in their culture. So as potentially fucked up Batman it may seem for Batman to go around worrying about the wellbeing of the people he beats up, it's actually radically humane for a Gothamite because everyone's conditioned to just leave people bleeding out on the street.
 
Last edited:

Ruisu

Banned
Aug 1, 2019
5,535
Brasil
I'm not saying I reject that interpretation, of him being insane, but if he were accused of that in-universe, he'd say "What, and letting them suffer and possibly die is more sane?"

The intriguing thing about Batman, and why I find Facehugger's well intentioned and obviously sincere love for the warehouse scene so disagreeable, is that Batman is at his best when the writer is mixing his compassion and respect with his dislike of crime and the criminals he's fighting. People love the killing joke, but they mostly seem to like how tortured the Joker is in that story and ignore Batman. Whereas what I find interesting about it is that this is one story where Batman is trying to just....end their fighting, because he is trying to see the Joker as a fellow human being and the joker is, in a really twisted way, trying to do the same. It's a comic about how two broken men are trying to find a genuine emotional connection.

Batman's always meme'd as a billionaire who goes out to punch poor people where if he really wanted to help, he'd use his billions to fix society, and I don't disagree there is something to that, and others want to see Batman as an ideal hero that has nothing but warm fuzzies for his enemies and the all the fighting is a frustrating and depressing part of the job he is forced to do. I kind of want both. I want a batman that does actually enjoy the violence and righteousness of being a hero, but refuses to dehumanize his enemies and will always see their lives as worth saving. So he's not in denial that he enjoys life as batman, but isn't dehumanizing about the pain he's causing, and is kind of aware that the situation is kind of fucked up...but in my version of the story, Gotham is also fucked up. Like, not just the supervillain/superhero parts of it, all of Gotham culture is like Florida but instead of stupid it's gothic-y and cruel and angry and fuck you. So as potentially fucked up Batman it may seem for Batman to go around worrying about the wellbeing of the people he beats up, it's actually radical for a Gothamite because everyone's conditioned to just leave people bleeding out on the street.
This is a good point, but here's the thing, for me when Batman is portrayed like that it just seems a bit too hypocritical for a sane person. It's great that you don't want to just be another one who leaves people to die on the street, but usually the good people who help those dying aren't the same ones who beat them to near death.

But also, I don't mind a hypocritical Batman. I just want that the writers be honest with what they are doing. Mostly I don't think Batman can enjoy being Batman and also be a moral paradigm unless the story is a parody style.
 

Bradbury

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,857
This. I've long wondered why Disney hasn't had Pixar do a Marvel or Star Wars movie yet. Hell, I'd even take a Walt Disney Animation Studios attempt at one
Walt Disney Animation Studios kind did it with Big Hero Six (but in name only lol), on the other side I don´t think Pixar is interested in working with outside franchises. My gold scenary is that they open a Marvel Animation Studios as a third arm so Disney and Pixar can keep doing their own thing
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,728
This is a good point, but here's the thing, for me when Batman is portrayed like that it just seems a bit too hypocritical for a sane person. It's great that you don't want to just be another one who leaves people to die on the street, but usually the good people who help those dying aren't the same ones who beat them to near death.

But also, I don't mind a hypocritical Batman. I just want that the writers be honest with what they are doing. Mostly I don't think Batman can enjoy being Batman and also be a moral paradigm unless the story is a parody style.
No, I totally get what you mean. I fully agree that if a real person did this, it'd be....really insane. But that's because we live in the real world where someone dressing up like a vigilante to beat up criminals is like 99% of the time just a white supremacist with pretensions of heroism.

So, for the superhero genre to make any kind of sense, you have to buy into the fantasy that you can take justice in your own hands, while also control the violence to such a degree that you will never kill anyone unintentionally with your extreme employment of it. That's why I kind of did the work of worldbuilding gotham to be even more twisted than it's usual depictions make it out to be, see my edit in the last post.

But I tend to think of the superhero genre as a sort of urban-scifi-fantasy genre, so it's not super important to me that the character fits the mold of conventional heroics. Effectively, I agree with you that you kind of have to acknowledge that Batman's a bit...out there or that the fiction just really is kind of an immature fantasy. It's just that my answer to it is to further build the world around him that justifies his behavior better. Yes, he is a really big wierdo for doing things like this, but also Gotham itself is really bizarre and almost alien and actually really cruel and vile, so him showing any amount of dedication to saving it's people is considered the wierdest part of his character in universe, whereas his desire to beat people up is far more accepted and commonplace.
 

Tuorom

Member
Oct 30, 2017
10,987
I always enjoyed the philosophical nods more. The idealism is what really defines Batman and superheroes in general, but Batman is easier to relate to because he's just a man.





 

Trago

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,609
Goddamn right OP!

Batfleck is the best. Fucking shame he never got his own standalone film.
 

Justice_DP

Member
Jan 28, 2020
154
If I read such takes I always feel like people should read more comic books...

Alex Ross and Mark Waid said everything on the issue regarding Batman or Superman on the following page:

Thus: No, it is a nice action sequence, but it is not Batman. However to me Batman is not a character that can be really defined by an action sequence in my opinion.
 

Opto

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,546
I prefer the scene in the Batman Gotham Knight animate shorts where he's wounded in a sewer and keeps finding tossed guns under the trash and he's just completely broken.

veEZTYD.png
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,728
If you guys really want to see Batman at the true height of his power, here's a clip where he takes out a frikken GOD

And I'm not just talking "powerful being that calls itself god" like maybe the greek pantheon, I'm talking full on reality shaper. This being is so powerful that even Superman would be powerless against her and she's going to destroy reality just by being around it. Batman is given the one single device that can end it, and he takes it and goes into the twisted woods to confront this being that's beyond human. There's no other way, either he kills her or reality ends. And by the end of the clip, he'll have succeeded, saving reality, having confronted a reality warper and left it dead.

Click here to see how Batman, the peak badass hero of the universe, faces GOD and comes out victorious.
 

adelante

Member
Oct 27, 2017
205
You know that line in Begins when Ducard said "You know how to fight six men. We can teach you how to engage six hundred." Nowhere in Nolan's trilogy was I ever convinced that his Batman could pull that off.

That warehouse scene in BvS definitely did. His split second decision-making skills in clearing a mob shows here; you actually believe him in his prime could have easily taken on a much bigger group. Probably one of the best live action batman scene for me simply because it was the first time someone did a batman v mob scene justice.
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,573
Various graphic novels have shown whether Batman kills or not and left it ambiguous, often as a device to explore his morality. It's up to the audience to interpret it which is what makes art so fascinating. There doesn't have to be one correct interpretation and everyone else who thinks differently is wrong. That's the beauty of art.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,728
I feel like Batman's no kill policy is especially pointless in the comics universe specifically. Like, in movies, it's just a sort of adaptation appendix they have to deal with somehow, but in the comics it's just absurd because it's not like anyone major he kills is gonna stay dead. If he went and shot the joker in the head, he wouldn't have time to get lunch before it was revealed that it was actually a Jokerbot or that Joker cloned himself or a new Joker jumped in from a different dimension, or maybe even the Joker he actually killed will simply walk back to Gotham from the gates of literal Hell.

Comics Batman lives in a universe where certain characters are immortal even if he does kill them, so....who cares.
 

a916

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,932
Yeah this is easily the best Batman scene. He's clearly snapped and broken... he said as much at the end of the movie "I failed him in life, I won't fail him in death".

It's also shot so beautifully... the entire thing is easily readible, there's no weird dancing in the background like you see when actors or stunt guys miss their cue, or shaky camera... it's just brutal but also smooth.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
In this case, yes. Darkseid is dead at the end of FInal Crisis.


Retcon

tenor.gif

Given that Final Crisis and Multiversity were written by Grant Morrison, it's more likely that Darkseid was never going to truly die.

I'm not a fan of "Batman forced to pick up a gun" scenes either way.