None of the JRPGs on SNES were hugely popular outside of Japan. Half the Final Fantasy games prior to FF7 weren't even localized.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Ocarina of Time or Final Fantasy VII; Which was more influential?
- Thread starter Solid SOAP
- Start date
Out of those two, Ocarina of Time for sure. It had a lot of things that became standard because of how the game implemented them.
Now, when you throw minor games or PC titles that were less popular than Zelda, you would be able to find many of its features. But Zelda implemented them in a very good way, popularized them, and was an amazing title to boot.
Same for FFVII, but I'd argue it brought less things to the mainstream than Zelda, so in that regard it might have been less influential. It was a great game nevertheless.
Now, when you throw minor games or PC titles that were less popular than Zelda, you would be able to find many of its features. But Zelda implemented them in a very good way, popularized them, and was an amazing title to boot.
Same for FFVII, but I'd argue it brought less things to the mainstream than Zelda, so in that regard it might have been less influential. It was a great game nevertheless.
Most people in Brazil have no idea of what Zelda is either. Chances are, people that know Zelda also know FF.
That was nothing new even in FF series, let alone console gaming. Even Sonic the Hedgehog had a clearly political view expressed in it.
I agree in one thing, Super Mario 64 was the most revolutionary game of these three.
I like FF7 more than OOT but it didn't do much in terms of being influential IMO other than the huge popularity it got by being a great game+Sony giant marketing machine, making the genre popular outside Japan.
I love FFVII but Ocarina of Time revolutionized 3D adventure games. It changed everything with its seamless 3D world and camera system. For a long time, it was the greatest game ever, with the games media.
Final Fantasy VII was very old game design dressed up in nice CGI cutscenes and decent interactions between characters. It did nothing revolutionary. It did bring a more cinematic experience to console owners, but that was nothing new on other platforms.
Ocarina of Time on the other hand, was absolutely legendary. I remember an article in a magazine looking back on how influential it was, the writer was working at a developer at the time and one guy in the office was playing it, surrounded by co-workers standing around literally taking down notes in notepads. I can't remember what it was, but there was one element of the game that was extremely close to what they were doing on their next game, and they were appalled and impressed that Nintendo had done it first, and done it better. You had entire games designed around one thing - such as sneaking around, as in Metal Gear. That was done extremely well in the Gerudo Fortress - one small element of the game, done and forgotten about in minutes. That's the kind of game Ocarina was. It advanced 3D gaming out of its awkward, early stages.
The one most vivid memory the author of that article had is of everyone alternately writing things down in notepads and shaking their heads in awe of what Nintendo had done. That's Ocarina's legacy.
Ocarina of Time on the other hand, was absolutely legendary. I remember an article in a magazine looking back on how influential it was, the writer was working at a developer at the time and one guy in the office was playing it, surrounded by co-workers standing around literally taking down notes in notepads. I can't remember what it was, but there was one element of the game that was extremely close to what they were doing on their next game, and they were appalled and impressed that Nintendo had done it first, and done it better. You had entire games designed around one thing - such as sneaking around, as in Metal Gear. That was done extremely well in the Gerudo Fortress - one small element of the game, done and forgotten about in minutes. That's the kind of game Ocarina was. It advanced 3D gaming out of its awkward, early stages.
The one most vivid memory the author of that article had is of everyone alternately writing things down in notepads and shaking their heads in awe of what Nintendo had done. That's Ocarina's legacy.
Last edited:
People really acting as if JRPGs werent a thing or successful on the SNES ?
FF7 was massive but in the end it was the continuation of what FF did on the SNES + higher budget and pre-rendered backgrounds that many other devs were already using for their PSX games.
Meanwhile OoT pretty much delivered the 3D Action Adventure blueprint. No point in downplaying what FF7 brought to the table, but that a really bad match up. Everyone who played around that time, knows that OoT in terms of hype/perception and gameplay standards was on a diffrent level.
FF7 was massive but in the end it was the continuation of what FF did on the SNES + higher budget and pre-rendered backgrounds that many other devs were already using for their PSX games.
Meanwhile OoT pretty much delivered the 3D Action Adventure blueprint. No point in downplaying what FF7 brought to the table, but that a really bad match up. Everyone who played around that time, knows that OoT in terms of hype/perception and gameplay standards was on a diffrent level.
Influential for different reasons.
OoT is the pinnacle of action/adventure games. Innovations like Z-Targeting cannot be understated.
FFVII made JRPGs a household name. It's cinematic nature influenced more games to focus on story telling.
OoT is the pinnacle of action/adventure games. Innovations like Z-Targeting cannot be understated.
FFVII made JRPGs a household name. It's cinematic nature influenced more games to focus on story telling.
I'd say FF7, not for the game design or the idea that it popularized JRPGs in the West, but because it was basically the first AAA game. The way the game was produced and marketed has influenced the entire industry for good and ill ever since.
It's not that JRPGs were particularly unpopular so much as FF7 was drastically more popular. Some figures I'm looking at say that FF6 sold a little under half a million in the US, whereas FF7 sold over 3 million in the US. That's a huge jump up.
It's not that JRPGs were particularly unpopular so much as FF7 was drastically more popular. Some figures I'm looking at say that FF6 sold a little under half a million in the US, whereas FF7 sold over 3 million in the US. That's a huge jump up.
Secret of Mana, Secret of Evermore, Terranigma, Final Fantasy III, Chrono Trigger, Lufia 1+2, etc. They weren't Mario big, but they were all localized and in terms of second tier commanded a sizable mindshare. They were definitely big in the gaming mags I read. FFVII was obviously much bigger, but so was gaming in general because Playstation was the first console that was cool for teenagers, so the market was greatly expanded (games also became cheaper because of CDs of course).
That sounds a bit of a cop out to me. You could say FF VII's influences were eventualities, or any influential game from that era.
JRPGs were a thing but they weren't really going toe-to-toe with the biggest games of their respective platforms on a mainstream level. FFVII was huge the year it came out, with the marketing to match, and a lot of that was thanks to its implementation of FMV cutscenes and a greater focus on story. A lot of games were probably greenlit as a direct result of its success.
Not to mention FFVII was the first mainline Final Fantasy released in Europe, period. Barely any Square RPGs released in the territory up until that point, but afterwards the floodgates opened. The first time I played FFIV - VI was via the PS1 re-releases that probably wouldn't have happened without FFVII blowing up the way it did.
Maybe ask the creator of Final Fantasy himself.
Final Fantasy VI didnt become popular in the west until after FF VII.
Sakaguchi says Final Fantasy VI didn't sell well in the U.S. when it originally hit the SNES
Some have been under the impression that Final Fantasy VI was a disappointment from a sales perspective in Japan whereas it sold moderately well in America. However, this isn’t actually true. Hironobu Sakaguchi, who produced Final Fantasy VI, has now cleared things up. It turns out that is was...
nintendoeverything.com
Here are the sales of FF on the SNES
Here's the sales of Final Fantasy on the Playstation
List of best-selling PlayStation video games - Wikipedia
A huge increase overall mainly because Final Fantasy went from a series popular in Japan to a series popular worldwide.
Pretty sure not one of those games sold more than 500k in the west on SNES and several of them were not localized in all regions. Terranigma never came out in NA. The first Lufia game did not come out in Europe. Final Fantasy III/VI didn't come out in Europe until 2002, and it was the PS1 remaster.
It's fine if you think OoT is influential, but the amount of people claiming that it invented things that already existed in PC gaming and such is absurd. Both games stand on the shoulders of prior RPGs and action games. OoT didn't invent things like elemental dungeons or maps/compasses etc. At the same time as others have said, other games were already iterating and evolving into the 3D space, OoT just made the strongest leap first.
That said, I think FF7 was far more influential because it brought RPGs into the mainstream. SNES RPGs were mostly niche and relegated to Japan while PC RPGs sold decent numbers but was far behind the console market at the time. The closest comparison would be Baldur's Gate which sold far less than FF7. The massive size of the game led to other developers expanding the scope of their own RPGs or games because how else could you compete against such a juggernaut? It pretty much became THE comparison for any story-based game at the time.
That said, I think FF7 was far more influential because it brought RPGs into the mainstream. SNES RPGs were mostly niche and relegated to Japan while PC RPGs sold decent numbers but was far behind the console market at the time. The closest comparison would be Baldur's Gate which sold far less than FF7. The massive size of the game led to other developers expanding the scope of their own RPGs or games because how else could you compete against such a juggernaut? It pretty much became THE comparison for any story-based game at the time.
Lol right, because "good cutscenes" is the only thing Metal Gear Solid brought to the table, right? And who said good cutscenes were the "most" influential thing in gaming, you? The stealth tactics introduced in MGS are equally if not moreso influential than its presentation.
Which was in Mega Man Legends prior to Zelda. Your point?
No but I'm pretty sure most games not called Mario or Street Fighter didn't. Comparatively they were a pretty big thing.
Gameplay OoT.
Story FF7.
Both were influential in different ways, not everything is measurable.
Story FF7.
Both were influential in different ways, not everything is measurable.
You do realize OoT isn't the first action RPG and neither is FFVII the first menu-based RPG, don't you?
With this line of thinking the entire framing of the thread would be useless. I don't think either game did anything genuinely new.
If you think a game has to create an entire genre in order to do something new I don't know what to tell you.
Ocarina of time. It, with mario 64, was basically the template for a gigantic amount of 3d games across multiple genres. I like FFVII more, but im not gonna delude myself thinking it popularizing the genre of jrpgs in the west is as influential as creating the template through which many other genres work today.
Mention any given feature in either game and I'm reasonably certain it could be retorted with "You realize X wasn't the first to do Y, do you?".
I would give just as much credit for appealing to female gamers to Ocarina of Time as I would to FFVII. I met two of my post college female friends at a Zelda concert, and remember girls being in love with Link (and Shiek) during grade school.
Both era defining games but Ocarina was the more important of the two because it was a phenomenal action adventure game in full 3D and full 3D would become the norm for console gaming starting from the following generation.
FFVII was influential in term of cinematic presentation but its game structure was a continuation of the Square works on SNES.
FFVII was influential in term of cinematic presentation but its game structure was a continuation of the Square works on SNES.
I didn't expect OoT getting more than 10% of the votes, let alone winning. What the everliving fuck? FFVII singlehandedly brought JRPGs into the mainstream!
is that more important than being the blueprint for most 3d action adventure games to this day?
popularizing a genre that already existed and had many successful and well regarded games in the previous generation, while really important, isn't as important as what oot did imo.
Ocarina of Time. Such a huge advancement in many areas, standing on the shoulders of Mario 64.
I think Ocarina of Time belongs to that group of games as well.
I think Ocarina of Time belongs to that group of games as well.
Also before that, the GTA3 developers made N64 game called Body Harvest. They had to work hard with Nintendo to meet the Nintendo quality standards.
I have a SNES (bought on launch day!); I just also happen to have a memory. The second I saw FFVII ads on TV in Spain, where games just didn't get ads, and the moment I heard two strangers in the subway talking about FFVII, was when I knew something had changed deeply and forever.
Videogames in general, let alone JRPGs, were just not a thing the general non-kid non-nerd public played until the PSX and FFVII respectively. Any attempt to say otherwise is historic revisionism.
I don't know, I'm still not really sure on this whole idea that Final Fantasy brought JRPGs into the mainstream.
Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy were already some of the best selling SNES series, and that continued on PS1 and PS2, with FF7 and FF8 doing particularly well compared to others. Relative to console sales there doesn't seem to be some giant leap forwards in game sales within the genre.
Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy were already some of the best selling SNES series, and that continued on PS1 and PS2, with FF7 and FF8 doing particularly well compared to others. Relative to console sales there doesn't seem to be some giant leap forwards in game sales within the genre.
Pokemon Red/Blue were released year later than FFVII in US (and almost 2 years later in EU). Of course Pokemon made the genre even more popular and you could say it was step two after FFVII for JRPGs (games had completely different selling points though).Uh...
True, but Red/Green released a year earlier than FFVII in Japan, and its success there is what led to its westward expansion, so I don't see why it should be discounted for that reason.
Uh...
Pokemon Red/Blue came out the year after FF7 in the US.
But FF7 is primarily influential because of how it was produced & marketed which was drastically different than earlier games. From a design perspective, you could say OoT was more influential, but FF7 heralded the start of AAA game development.
The answer to that depends on whether you think influencing millions of people is more important than influencing hundreds of developers, which is a fair question, but for me, it definitely is. The industry as we know today would not exist without breaking the wall between dedicated gamers and mainstream audience that the PSX era brought, and FFVII was a huge part of that, if not the very core of it.
"Influence" is a lot more than just "game X lifted feature Y from game Z". "Influence" can also be "game X would not even exist without the potential audience that game Y single-handedly created".
"Already successful" is extremely reductive here. The extent to which games like FFVI or CT were "successful" simply had no comparison to the mindshare that FFVII got.
I also think that, revolutionary as OoT was, it's getting exaggerated here. Going by some posts here, one would think it was the first third person adventure game.
Nobody's debating whether FFVII was a big thing, the question was whether it popularized the JRPG genre, and not just that it popularized FF and little else, or as I'm arguing, was an effect of the gaming market expanding because teenagers no longer grew out of games. The fact of the matter is FFVII could get so big in part because it was a decently popular genre and not just in Japan.
These are October 1993 sales. You can see Secret of Mana at number 2, 7th Saga at number 6, Final Fantasy Legend 3 at 7, Dragon Warrior 4 at number 8. JRPGs already had a Western market on Nintendo systems, and quite a bit of mindshare. You can talk about revisionism all you want, but open a Nintendo gaming mag of that time period and you can find at least 10% dedicated to JRPGs. Not on Sega systems though and that probably colored perception.
Sure you're mostly talking second half of the top 10, they didn't become number 1 like Final Fantasy VII, but then few other JRPGs not called Final Fantasy did afterwards either. I'm pretty sure Legend of Mana sold quite a bit less than Secret of Mana too, so it's not like JRPGs suddenly arrived.
Uh...
Final Fantasy VII was a worldwide hit a year before any Pokemon game hit the west. We're not talking about "popularized in Japan," RPGs were popular in Japan long before Pokemon AND Final Fantasy VII.
I was about to say. Red/Green was released before FFVII and its success in Japan made the Western localization possible with the help of Nintendo. The amount of cherry picking in this thread to suit their argument is a sight to behold.
I think I just see FF7's influence being more direct, as a lot of the supposed touchstones of OoT have been shown to exist prior, whereas FF7 put a genre on the map in the west and had games like Septerra Core made as a result. But I'm not making big sweeping insinuations with either like thinking 3D action adventure wouldn't exist without OoT or games wouldn't try going cinematic without FF7.
JRPGs have become niche again, while Zelda's open world action adventure formula have permeated more than its core genre.
At the time, through to the early 2000s it was a tie and arguable. But with hindsight, it was Ocarina. It innovated massively and its influence is still felt much more firmly.
At the time, through to the early 2000s it was a tie and arguable. But with hindsight, it was Ocarina. It innovated massively and its influence is still felt much more firmly.
It wasn't, but it's incredibly telling that earlier 3rd person adventure games had sequels that played more like OoT than their own predecessors.
The main influence FFVII did have was that it made Playstation a popular and viable system, and with that the rest is history. Squaresoft going to Sony was a top tier betrayalton, because Nintendo fans had been salivating about Final Fantasy VII for Ultra 64 for so long. A lot fans knew the below screenshot was even more exciting than Mario 64... because again JRPGs were already quite popular.
/cdn1.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/7685839/Final_fantasy_7_FF6_3D_2.0.png)
Yup.
Prior to FF7, square was a niche publisher that sold few if any games outside of Japan. Their SNES output was a joke in the west.
FF6 and Chrono trigger get mentioned a lot for games that sold under 300k copies here.
A LOT of their output never got localized and stayed in Japan because of this.
Romancing Saga?
Final Fantasy V?
Romancing Saga 2 and 3?
Alcahest?
Live A Live?
Front Mission?
Seiken Densetsu 3?
Bahamut Lagoon?
Treasure of the Rudras?
All Japan only. Include Enix's output and this gets longer.
Dragon Quest V and VI, the company's flagship game never appeared in the states.
7th Saga showed up with a broken western localization. The sequel (Mystic Ark) never got localized.
Star Ocean? What's that? Never released in the west.
Ogre battle released in the west with an absurdly low 10,000 (not a typo) copies. Anyone who tells you they played that on SNES in English almost certainly did it via emulator its the rarest game on the system. Tactics Ogre SNES never got localized.
Terranigma confusingly got a EU/JP only release, leaving US gamers missing the final installment of the Quintet "trilogy" (Soul blazer/Illusion of Gaia/Terranigma)
It was the vocal opinion of Square/Enix that Western gamers didn't like grand narrative JRPGs because they were "too hard" or too complex.
This is how we got FFIV nerfed down to FF easy type, FF Mystic Quest, and Secret of Evermore. All were basically failures.
It was the partnering and marketing push of FF7 that changed that and made "final fantasy" something western gamers had heard of AND caused a flood of JRPG localizations after the thing sold millions more than any other title in the genre had before it.
Ocarina is a good game, but absolutely nowhere near as influential.