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Oct 25, 2017
4,553
I don't even need to cite Cornel West to know that Barack Obama called protesters in Baltimore thugs in 2015 and then doubled down on it when pressed further after it happened. He's definitely someone we should be looking to to lead during this time after he did such a great job when he had the opportunity to do so in the past.
 

captmcblack

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,059
I *know* we're not saying that socialism/socialists or anything kind of like that is taboo on this forum, lmfao

c'mon, guys.

Anyway, I'll watch this later.
 

MoonToon

Banned
Nov 9, 2018
2,029
What do you want, for Dems trying to win elections to come out and say "ACAB! Fuck every cop!!!"

I want people to give a shit about people.
If all you're worried about is winning elections ... nothing is gonna change. Running on shit like "better training for cops will help weed out the few not so good ones!" wont stop well trained cops from deciding to kill people. Wont stop systemic racism. Wont decrease incarcerations.

But w/e, you win.
Lets just keep being killed as we wait for Dems to magically WIN everything and hope they stop siding with and protecting cops when they win even when they don't actually run on promises of strong justice system and police reform. Crossing my fingers.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
Not only that, if this WAS by executive order, all states would somehow need to comply. The way Obama is suggesting is already going to lead to lots of lawsuits from certain cities, counties, states. This happened with segregation as well so, we'll see.

greatest examples of some apathy in localities is seeing stuff where towns are majority black and their local admins dont even remotely reflect that. like seeing ferguson having a black mayor finally is great to see. like black conditions in majority black areas can be improved overnight by voting as a bloc and getting the people we want in.

a crazy cult back in the day tried to get part of the town sick so they couldnt vote so they could take over a town. like its so easy to take over a town with actual civil engagement.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
I don't even need to cite Cornel West to know that Barack Obama called protesters in Baltimore thugs in 2015 and then doubled down on it when pressed further after it happened. He's definitely someone we should be looking to to lead during this time after he did such a great job when he had the opportunity to do so in the past.
i can be mad at his moments like that, but also say that he also has a lot of good parts as well. people are not zero-sum games and perfection isnt what we should be seeking in any leader. what are the sum of their parts? is it mainly good or mainly bad? thats looking at character holistically.

I say this because I also had my own failings on many social subjects as well, and its infuriating to hold just prior history as an only representation of someone vs what they are also attempting to do today. people change, people fuck up and I absolutely understand some of his failings but to write them off completely? nah cant do it.
 
Mar 18, 2020
2,434
it's taboo as fuck here, doubly so if you use a socialist like cornel west to back it up.

Lol it's not taboo at all.

People take issue with the constant torrent of negativity when sometimes people just want to appreciate something.

There could be a thread about Obama eating dinner with the last survivor of the Tuskeegee airmen and people would start posting drone memes.

Meanwhile the few honest attempts to discuss his problems as a president peter out because there's no conflict to be had.

If talking about Obama's failures was really taboo many of you would have been up and left because you all do it all the fucking time.
 

Deleted member 60096

User requested account closure
Banned
Sep 20, 2019
1,295
I *know* we're not saying that socialism/socialists or anything kind of like that is taboo on this forum, lmfao

c'mon, guys.

Anyway, I'll watch this later.
I wouldn't call it taboo but there are some on this forum that make there disliking of leftists very clear regularly.
Lol it's not taboo at all.

People take issue with the constant torrent of negativity when sometimes people just want to appreciate something.

There could be a thread about Obama eating dinner with the last survivor of the Tuskeegee airmen and people would start posting drone memes.

Meanwhile the few honest attempts to discuss his problems as a president peter out because there's no conflict to be had.

If talking about Obama's failures was really taboo many of you would have been up and left because you all do it all the fucking time.
Now I'm sure you aren't purposefully implying here that people bringing up Obama's drone strikes are inherently dishonest for doing so right?
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
Lol it's not taboo at all.

People take issue with the constant torrent of negativity when sometimes people just want to appreciate something.

There could be a thread about Obama eating dinner with the last survivor of the Tuskeegee airmen and people would start posting drone memes.

Meanwhile the few honest attempts to discuss his problems as a president peter out because there's no conflict to be had.

If talking about Obama's failures was really taboo many of you would have been up and left because you all do it all the fucking time.
like seriously people get it, its like we have no qualms of those critiques of obama, but same time here is other sides that show they have redeeming things as well that help the cause at hand. people are complicated.

There are people who are "nice" the kiss their kids at night, love their family, buy their kids toys. but a fucking racists. this is something we have to get that there are mad dimensions to people and i look at the sum of all parts.

and while many times democrats can fail people they actually do try to work with us, vs the other side that actively looks to fuck people over. that why the power of protest, and following up on the people we put in office matters.
 

IronStarr

Alt Account
Banned
Mar 3, 2020
36
It's amazing how a couple of dipshits in this thread can completely trainwreck it. Don't feed into them.

President Obama doesn't owe this country a thing. Yet he got infront of a camera, calmed the nation's senses and anxiety, and showed us a path forward.

#Forever44
 
Mar 18, 2020
2,434
I wouldn't call it taboo but there are some on this forum that make there disliking of leftists very clear regularly.

Now I'm sure you aren't purposefully implying here that people bringing up Obama's drone strikes are inherently dishonest for doing so right?

I'm SAYING talking about the drone strikes with absolutely no consideration of what the actual conversation is can be very grating.

As I SAID in the same post you quoted, the few threads that are actually made to talk about his failures, including the drone strikes, often fizzle out, which is odd because you'd think there'd be a lot more discussion there considering how often they're mentioned everywhere else.
 

Casa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,501
I want people to give a shit about people.
If all you're worried about is winning elections ... nothing is gonna change. Running on shit like "better training for cops will help weed out the few not so good ones!" wont stop well trained cops from deciding to kill people. Wont stop systemic racism. Wont decrease incarcerations.

But w/e, you win.
Lets just keep being killed as we wait for Dems to magically WIN everything and hope they stop siding with and protecting cops when they win even when they don't actually run on promises of strong justice system and police reform. Crossing my fingers.
It sucks, but unlike Republicans the Dems can't run a hardliner with what many would consider an "extreme" agenda and win the White House. If Biden came out and announced super aggressive policies you then risk losing the massive group of suburban whites who handed Dems the House in '18 and are going big for Biden now.

Again, it sucks, but this isn't fantasy land. You have to win first to get anything done.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
It sucks, but unlike Republicans the Dems can't run a hardliner with what many would consider an "extreme" agenda and win the White House. If Biden came out and announced super aggressive policies you then risk losing the massive group of suburban whites who handed Dems the House in '18 and are going big for Biden now.

Again, it sucks, but this isn't fantasy land. You have to win first to get anything done.

and got damn even if your beliefs are a bit more extreme left, its so easy to just play the moderate line but boil the frog in legislation.

Slowly turning up the heat to the point people dont even realize how much has changed till they look back is an easy way to change things.

its like how jim slowly moved dwights desk items by the time the other side notices its too late. real strategy in that and/or just be in a major crisis and then yeah shit changes overnight.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
What do you want, for Dems trying to win elections to come out and say "ACAB! Fuck every cop!!!"

Democrats in big cities like LA and NY are responsible for the overpolicing. They have been in power for a long time and have done nothing to curtail things. We need leaders that will enact real change. We have other threads talking about defunding police in places like NYC, so why not? I don't get it, I don't understand what it is that we suddenly need to make sure we don't offend police. Fuck 'em. They don't care about anyone.

and got damn even if your beliefs are a bit more extreme left, its so easy to just play the moderate line but boil the frog in legislation.

Slowly turning up the heat to the point people dont even realize how much has changed till they look back is an easy way to change things.

its like how jim slowly moved dwights desk items by the time the other side notices its too late. real strategy in that and/or just be in a major crisis and then yeah shit changes overnight.

I guess I just don't have faith in the electorate the way others seem to have here.
 

chronos4590

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,356
Some non-black leftists love West because he called Obama a "house nigger" out loud while they have to keep it in.
giphy.gif
 

Deleted member 60096

User requested account closure
Banned
Sep 20, 2019
1,295
I'm SAYING talking about the drone strikes with absolutely no consideration of what the actual conversation is can be very grating.

As I SAID in the same post you quoted, the few threads that are actually made to talk about his failures, including the drone strikes, often fizzle out, which is odd because you'd think there'd be a lot more discussion there considering how often they're mentioned everywhere else.
People bring up shit that the subject of the topic has done in the past all the time and usually people don't care. Why is it that when its Obama suddenly its not okay?

And I wonder whether those threads might tend to fizzle out because there is a decent portion of this site who don't care about his foreign policy at all, or only a little. Not to mention many of the people who might have been more outspoken about the topic have since been banned for one reason or another.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
Democrats in big cities like LA and NY are responsible for the overpolicing. They have been in power for a long time and have done nothing to curtail things. We need leaders that will enact real change. We have other threads talking about defunding police in places like NYC, so why not? I don't get it, I don't understand what it is that we suddenly need to make sure we don't offend police. Fuck 'em. They don't care about anyone.



I guess I just don't have faith in the electorate the way others seem to have here.
heres the thing for me. i dont as much as a whole, however i think areas where there are predominately people of color should be able to have local govts that are looking out for them and its one of the easiest ways to start pushing change, outside of those communities. like for example why the hell hasnt Ferguson ever had a black mayor and the area is 67.4% black.

thats what baffles me.

I'm a little lost (just got off work).

How was the speech?
good stuff overall. in summary "keep that same energy in November and beyond and keep making leaders uncomfortable"
 

captmcblack

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,059
I will ask again.

What relevant politican, of any party, ever ran on some permutation of:

- abolishing the police
- defunding the police
- anything outside of not-specific-enough "criminal justice reform"

Is there anyone that has ever proposed a policy explicitly about these? Is there anyone that won saying that? I'm not speaking in terms of only running to win elections, nor am I speaking in such a way where nothing can be better/improved/changed. But I'm still curious if it's a reasonable ask to begin with. I know there are places (like Camden, NJ) where the police unions may have been disbanded or otherwise reformed such that the police's relationship to their community and local/state government was less antagonistic.

In another thread I asked this and it was generally understood that nobody realistically could run on anything like that because it wouldn't be popular and wouldn't be a platform that could be effective or win an election. Is that still true?
 
Mar 18, 2020
2,434
People bring up shit that the subject of the topic has done in the past all the time and usually people don't care. Why is it that when its Obama suddenly its not okay?

And I wonder whether those threads might tend to fizzle out because there is a decent portion of this site who don't care about his foreign policy at all, or only a little. Not to mention many of the people who might have been more outspoken about the topic have since been banned for one reason or another.

You know what, sure. Everyone else has it out for posters who want to talk about Obama's failures and no one else is willing to discuss them, not even in threads about them.

I'm sure all of the bans were unjust as well.
 

Double 0

Member
Nov 5, 2017
7,430
I will ask again.

What relevant politican, of any party, ever ran on some permutation of:

- abolishing the police
- defunding the police
- anything outside of not-specific-enough "criminal justice reform"

Is there anyone that has ever proposed a policy explicitly about these? Is there anyone that won saying that? I'm not speaking in terms of only running to win elections, nor am I speaking in such a way where nothing can be better/improved/changed. But I'm still curious if it's a reasonable ask to begin with. I know there are places (like Camden, NJ) where the police unions may have been disbanded or otherwise reformed such that the police's relationship to their community and local/state government was less antagonistic.

In another thread I asked this and it was generally understood that nobody realistically could run on anything like that because it wouldn't be popular and wouldn't be a platform that could be effective or win an election. Is that still true?

Closest was Castro.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
heres the thing for me. i dont as much as a whole, however i think areas where there are predominately people of color should be able to have local govts that are looking out for them and its one of the easiest ways to start pushing change, outside of those communities. like for example why the hell hasnt Ferguson ever had a black mayor and the area is 67.4% black.

thats what baffles me.

Here in Charlotte, 2017 was the first time in history we had a black female mayor and our city is 35% black. Not close to Ferguson's level but I get it. The local level is how we really enact change. People should go to town halls, should be more engaged on the local level, and be involved. I totally agree with you. There are plenty of national policies that do impact local elections, whether it's gerrymandering or even how we vote, early voting, etc.
 

Deleted member 60096

User requested account closure
Banned
Sep 20, 2019
1,295
User Banned (1 week): thread derail over a series of posts
You know what, sure. Everyone else has it out for posters who want to talk about Obama's failures and no one else is willing to discuss them, not even in threads about them.

I'm sure all of the bans were unjust as well.
Not everyone no, the majority of this site probably don't even interact with the political threads in the first place and focus on the gaming side and then there are absolutely those who are willing to discuss it without being dismissive. But there is a percentage of the users who frequent the political threads on here who are very quick to dismiss any and all criticism of Obama, particularly in regards to his foreign policy.

I'm not commenting on whether their bans were or weren't warranted, merely that a decent amount of posters who I know for a fact would be posting in those threads if they weren't banned are banned.
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
I wouldn't call it taboo but there are some on this forum that make there disliking of leftists very clear regularly.

Now I'm sure you aren't purposefully implying here that people bringing up Obama's drone strikes are inherently dishonest for doing so right?
When it's lazy drive by done in meme form to an entirely different topic, yeah, it kind of is.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,233
People bring up shit that the subject of the topic has done in the past all the time and usually people don't care. Why is it that when its Obama suddenly its not okay?

And I wonder whether those threads might tend to fizzle out because there is a decent portion of this site who don't care about his foreign policy at all, or only a little. Not to mention many of the people who might have been more outspoken about the topic have since been banned for one reason or another.
Obama, as America's first Black President, is held in extremely high regard by the vast majority of Black Americans.

That's not to say he's above criticism, but to take this as an opportunity to shit and make reductive statements about him at a time when Black people are out protesting racism and police brutality is, at the very least, a little tone deaf.

People bring up shit that the subject of the topic has done in the past all the time and usually people don't care. Why is it that when its Obama suddenly its not okay?

And I wonder whether those threads might tend to fizzle out because there is a decent portion of this site who don't care about his foreign policy at all, or only a little. Not to mention many of the people who might have been more outspoken about the topic have since been banned for one reason or another.
Most people here would agree that there's a lot to criticize about Obama's foreign policy.

But I think you already knew that. I think what really bothers you is that people like Obama in spite of his foreign policy. And that's a battle you're never going to win.
 
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platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
Here in Charlotte, 2017 was the first time in history we had a black female mayor and our city is 35% black. Not close to Ferguson's level but I get it. The local level is how we really enact change. People should go to town halls, should be more engaged on the local level, and be involved. I totally agree with you. There are plenty of national policies that do impact local elections, whether it's gerrymandering or even how we vote, early voting, etc.
gerrymandering, how we vote etc, is all on the states. not saying you dont get this but generally people need to look at the United states more like a ton of mini countries that can do damn near anything they want, while the feds kind of helps to apply certain things across the board. but states had a shit load of power and organizing at a state level/local level can breed into bigger things.

its like we do the same shit when people think trickle down economics work, its bottom up for politics as much as anything else. very few times top down approaches work well.

I would love to see leftists take over a city and run it in the model they are looking for, for example. like stuff like that works but it takes more organizing to work and thus why most people are way more moderate than ever extreme left or right. so while we complain about centrists so much we have to work with them and slowly pull them left and make a new center rather than a hard left. hard left works when everything is going to shit.
 

RailWays

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
15,666
I will ask again.

What relevant politican, of any party, ever ran on some permutation of:

- abolishing the police
- defunding the police
- anything outside of not-specific-enough "criminal justice reform"

Is there anyone that has ever proposed a policy explicitly about these? Is there anyone that won saying that? I'm not speaking in terms of only running to win elections, nor am I speaking in such a way where nothing can be better/improved/changed. But I'm still curious if it's a reasonable ask to begin with. I know there are places (like Camden, NJ) where the police unions may have been disbanded or otherwise reformed such that the police's relationship to their community and local/state government was less antagonistic.

In another thread I asked this and it was generally understood that nobody realistically could run on anything like that because it wouldn't be popular and wouldn't be a platform that could be effective or win an election. Is that still true?
Historically, no, but literally no politician has run on that kind of platform in modern times (likely due to past results). Hell, even our niche third parties suck-up to the police on this metric. I'm under no illusion that a modern politician will run on abolishing the police, but our policy platforms sure can be a lot more comprehensive.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
Historically, no, but literally no politician has run on that kind of platform in modern times (likely due to past results). Hell, even our niche third parties suck-up to the police on this metric. I'm under no illusion that a modern politician will run on abolishing the police, but our policy platforms sure can be a lot more comprehensive.
this is why in my gut i feel like we have to fight fire with fire and beat the lobbist etc at their own games. write the laws we want slap it on a politicians desk and tell them pass this shit we have 40k voters in this city that will vote for you if promise to get this passed.

The system is fucky but i dont see why there arent huge SuperPAC and citizen led lobbying groups that cant easily throw their weight more than even corps.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
Obama, as America's first Black President, is held in extremely high regard by the vast majority of Black Americans.

That's not to say he's above criticism, but to take this as an opportunity to shit and make reductive statements about him at a time when Black people are out protesting racism and police brutality is, at the very least, a little tone deaf.

This makes sense, sorry didn't mean to derail things and I'll try to pick a more appropriate venue for my criticisms in the future. I'm looking forward to a future where police brutality will be a thing of the past.

gerrymandering, how we vote etc, is all on the states. not saying you dont get this but generally people need to look at the United states more like a ton of mini countries that can do damn near anything they want, while the feds kind of helps to apply certain things across the board. but states had a shit load of power and organizing at a state level/local level can breed into bigger things.

its like we do the same shit when people think trickle down economics work, its bottom up for politics as much as anything else. very few times top down approaches work well.

I would love to see leftists take over a city and run it in the model they are looking for, for example. like stuff like that works but it takes more organizing to work and thus why most people are way more moderate than ever extreme left or right. so while we complain about centrists so much we have to work with them and slowly pull them left and make a new center rather than a hard left. hard left works when everything is going to shit.

There are rulings that get to the SCOTUS for gerrymandering right? Trying to remember the NC recent ruling and it's all muddled in my head. I agree with your general point though that it's way easier going local to state to federal than the other way around. It's just this country is so damn conservative that people will approach even the more sensible policies and recommendations that Obama recommends here as if it's crossing an invisible line that cannot be crossed.
 
Mar 18, 2020
2,434
Historically, no, but literally no politician has run on that kind of platform in modern times (likely due to past results). Hell, even our niche third parties suck-up to the police on this metric. I'm under no illusion that a modern politician will run on abolishing the police, but our policy platforms sure can be a lot more comprehensive.

I'm honestly starting to feel more optimistic that this can start happening. People are seeing in real time that the police nationwide are behaving like rabid dogs and while overequipped with military hardware. People need to work over politicians at every level with the energy of now.
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,287
So watching the conference, I wonder if the proposals have been offered to mayors before today. I was pleased to hear Mayor Bowser signing up.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
This makes sense, sorry didn't mean to derail things and I'll try to pick a more appropriate venue for my criticisms in the future. I'm looking forward to a future where police brutality will be a thing of the past.



There are rulings that get to the SCOTUS for gerrymandering right? Trying to remember the NC recent ruling and it's all muddled in my head. I agree with your general point though that it's way easier going local to state to federal than the other way around. It's just this country is so damn conservative that people will approach even the more sensible policies and recommendations that Obama recommends here as if it's crossing an invisible line that cannot be crossed.
some of them have turned into states rights, like PA, i think NC too etc, and well honestly cities are the future and cities a lot of change can be done, even though we have a conservative baseline in one issue or another, you look at voting maps its a stark difference between the too. depends on some lawsuits and that def hurts at levels, but its been shown turn outs can overcome some of that crap as well at a state level, but it needs to be targeted in areas.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
this will not be solved at the ballot box. It has to be solved by impressing on donors that there's no way forward without getting behind defunding. Then mainstream politics will follow
 

Zelas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,020
Glad to see him reiterate exactly what people were saying yesterday. Protest alone will only get you so far. People need to vote too.

Anyone arguing against that either doesnt want change or thinks millions suffering even more is a fine price to pay to further their "blow up the system agenda."