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Obama on 'Call-out culture' - "The world is messy. There are ambiguities. People who do really good stuff have flaws."
- Thread starter vestan
- Start date
Agree with Obama. That's a smart man with more worldwide exposure and experience than any of us. He has good intentions. I hope people listen.
This is very well said.
Internet/Social Media makes it so everything is public. Not to mention a lot of people find calling people out on social media or forums or whatever feels good.
I know this because I've done it myself. Especially when the vast majority of your social media friends and fellow forum posters will agree with you.
No. Most people took a wait and see approach with Etika. The threads about his homophobia here were not unanimous. Many spoke to his mental illness, it was a well known issue. That was only here. In general he wasn't even close to being cancelled. His reddit was always poppin', his streams got a ton of views, he wasn't perma banned on Twitch. His community was always supportive and wanting him to get help. He wasn't cancelled.
I do think people have listened and understood what he's getting at, but him being smart or worldly does not make him automatically correct.
Not really, guy said some fucked up shit. You can call out what he said etc as well as worrying about his health.
I'm not sure that's a realistic or responsible expectation.
Trump's doing a great job dismantling western imperialism in Syria. The only problem is there are many wannabe imperialists who will gladly fill the vacuum.
The responsible exercise of deadly military power sometimes requires, well, using it. Now I can't offer a full-throated defense of the policy since it's possible that Obama actually created more terrorists, or that the reduced risk of conflagration didn't outweigh the civilian deaths. But to measure a military policy exclusively by how many civilians died misses the benefits of risk mitigation:
I stand by my assessment of those people then and have to agree to disagree. There's is absolutely a discussion to be had about behavior within a society regarding social media and it's impacts. You can put your fingers in your ears and say there isn't all you like, but fortunately, that only makes it true for you.
It's crazy (and ironic) how discourse with some of you mirrors other groups that don't value nuance and understanding. Folks get a rebuttal in their heads and just run with it as their only sticking point. You all keep making those passive aggressive posts demanding something no one is talking about though. Clever stuff. Anyhow, that's enough out of me for today, so cheers.
You inability to see what he means is precisely what he means. Many in here see things as black and white and are hyper judgmental of things they disagree with.
Even sentiment wise he always got tons of support though. Sure he got criticism for the homophobia but that community response isn't some symptom of a larger problem. It's just criticism.
People have tried. You don't like their answers.
And the only one "shouting" here, if you've noticed, is you.
Pretty much this. I feel like it's very hard to express this on Era without getting thrown in the "is problematic" group.
Demonizing someone for something they said is hardly showing concern for their mental well being.
But I digress. I'm not sure how I would expect someone to respond to hurtful things like that.
A lot of people are powerless and being vocal about issues is the only means they have to attempt to change anything.
Have you got any evidence at all that people interested in injustice issues are the ones that don't vote? Occam's razor would kind of suggest that youth that are politically apathetic to causes are the ones who wouldn't vote.
SJW was ultimately a term co-opted by the online right to downplay people speaking out on race/gender/sexuality and it's good to see the people calling for nuance are those that have fell for it. Much like you're talking about nuance then put out that millionaire comment which plays into the naive libertarian narrative that charity is what will solve vast income/social inequality.
Yeah, still don't know what I'm suppose to take away from this that isn't vague be kinder rubbish. I highly doubt Obama was referring to youtubers and an IGN journalist too.
Those bloody college campus kids, calling out people?
Don't call out things if it's not direct action?
Minorities that call out things probably don't even vote?
Those bloody college campus kids, calling out people?
Don't call out things if it's not direct action?
Minorities that call out things probably don't even vote?
He said fucked up shit as part of severe mental health issues, which is a well documented phenomenon separate from general bigotry. He was purposefully engaging in self-destructive behavior because of his extremely debilitating mental state, which eventually led to him committing the ultimate self-destructive act.
Obviously the things he was saying/doing were 'fucked up', that was the entire reason he was doing them, to inflict harm on himself. The reason why I would say he is a good example is simply because his rapidly declining mental health was uniquely public and clear, so the callousness some people had in discussing him was completely unwarranted. His was not a situation where people lacked context for his behavior; people had the context and just didn't care.
Their answers don't encompass how "cancel culture" is actually used and how people here bemoan people for it when discussing issues on a forum. So the notion that others are redefining "cancelling" while using a definition that doesn't account for its general use in being thrown at people seems laughable at best and dishonest at worst.
You literally can't see the wood for the trees on this. It's textbook addiction.
There is no parallel between alt-right tactics and talking points and what the man is saying. You are the embodiment of what he is talking about. He is not making the point you are convinced he is making. Being intransigent about the nature of dialogue is the whole point! He is not trying to take anything away from any socially progressive advancement, absolve any wrong doing or weaken any resolve. In fact what he is talking about (due process) is a help not a hindrance to all of those causes.
Also the wider sociopolitical failings of Obama or his Presidency have nothing to do with what he is talking about and flinging it in his face is cheap. This is simply about decency and a whole generation seemingly have no idea what that is because they are living in an imaginary hyper-reality due to social fucking media.
Obama is right, call-out culture isn't activism. I've heard people use the word slackivism, its something done to pat yourself on the back. Do More.
Not attacking terrorists who mean to do you harm is not a serious option and I'm glad he didn't consider it. That said the broader trend of relying so much on intelligence and largely autonomous killing machines is awful and I hope future leaders will ban it internationally before it gets out of control
Has Oprah or Mister Phil ever referred to black people as apes? Or spread white genocide conspiracy theories?
I have nothing to add to your post, I just really enjoyed reading it.
Doesn't matter if he said it due to mental health issues though it still hurts people. Yes his health made him say the homophobic shit,but it is still homophobic and hurtful. That is why I said you can both be pissed at the homophobia and be worried about his health. Which I saw in that thread mostly
His statement is subjective. Of course he's not automatically correct. People should try to understand his perspective though. Understanding the perspective of someone much more experienced than you doesn't hurt even when you disagree. In this case, I agree with him. The culture he's referring to fuels the alt right rather than combats it.
You can more than one thing... which is my point. Like atm I am walking while I txt.
Call out culture is tough and it's something social media has exacerbated 100 times over. I almost feel bad for kids I may have one day who have to live their lives on a tight rope. I've said things I shouldn't have, done things I shouldn't have, and the only people that know about them were those involved....and I'm lucky for that. They weren't anything that makes me an AWFUL human being or anything like that, but they're stuff I look back on that I just think it was incredibly stupid even if I was the stupid age. And I regret it all. And if it did " get out " with no context or anything at all just as a statement, it would be a bad look.
Good points.
However, "cancel culture" is the pseudo-militant left-wing of the Court of Public Opinion, not the Court of Law.
Cancel Culture exists in the first place because the Court of Law/Society in General has failed and continues to fail. The only avenue for some kind of justice is to publicly shame and deplatform and devalue the perpetrators.
But this thread is not even debating that - it's debating the use of cancel culture on those who are not monsters, but rather those who made smaller, more forgivable mistakes.
As Obama said, the world is messy.
He noted that he sees a danger among young people, particularly on college campuses (a place with mostly and the most young people).
Seeing a potential danger within the younger generation isn't "dude thinks there's some crisis on college campuses".
Sure, I mean anyone claiming Etika was 'canceled' or something would be wrong; the only reason his YouTube channel got taken down is because he purposefully got it shut down. It's more that some people were extremely callous in their criticism of him given what was known about his mental health situation. I mean we are talking about a person who was institutionalized multiple times prior to those comments and attempted suicide by cop prior to eventually ending his own life by jumping off a bridge.
Another example would be August Ames, a porn star who committed suicide last year after making a comment on Twitter about not wanting to do scenes with actors who do both gay and straight porn because she believed those actors were more likely to have STDs. This comment was taken as homophobic, and while I think there is a degree of truth to that, she was also simply making a statement about who she would and would not sleep with...which is ultimately her choice. Furthermore, she was very young (23 I believe) and dealing with both childhood sexual abuse and having recently been violated while filming a scene. Faced with all the people in the industry she looked up to condemning her or calling her vile names, etc. and dealing with the aftermath of multiple traumatic events, she took her own life.
August would likely not have been 'canceled'; she was popular in the industry and could've continued to be so, it's not like the porn industry is known for ostracizing attractive and popular actresses for saying something problematic every now and then. But the kind of vitriol she recieved while already struggling with an extreme amount of trauma and an unfulfilling relationship ended up pushing her over the edge.
...?
As he should. A BLM hashtag is not, and should not be weighed the same as a BLM march. Pointing out how Flint and it's governing body is fucked up is not weighed the same as providing water to them. Criticizing Trump about his handling of Puerto Rico is not weighed the same as donating supplies or voting against him in the upcoming election. Condemning the violence in Chicago is not weighed the same as protesting the violence or helping to create programs for the youth.
Do you see what I'm saying? Unless you're a journalist, words without action don't amount to much. Simply retorting that "the act of typing words into Twitter IS an action" misses the forest for the trees.
They have no direction. They are all over the map. Some are just speaking to criticism, Some carry baggage that someone they like has been exposed, some just think Obama is really smart and worldly so what he says is right. Many are just alt-right. Others think Obama is making some galaxy brain statement on society when he is just defending his own questionable associations. That's all he is doing here nothing more.
The discussion literally goes the exact same way every time and the people who think the world is being unfair or drone on about nuance end up spouting random mumbo jumbo to try and take the discussion in other directions or overly interpret what he is saying to mean what they want him to say not what he is actually getting at. Obama wants to hang with all the other big boys of wealth and power unfortunately most of them are shitty people so he is trying to get out in front of it.
It's like that prophet in midsommer who is just smearing paint on a page but all these people around him are interpreting it in all these different ways and writing pages on it.
Needed said imo.
Casting stones is easy to do, but putting people on the defensive for mistakes doesnt necessarily mean you are necessitating more than people becoming defensive. It will not always force change. It can force rifts and divisiveness between groups because they are put on the defensive too aggressively.
Yes, putting a problem out in the open is a part of necessitating the need for change but doing it in an immature callout culture way may not create a positive response from the party you are trying to force to realize the need for a different approach.
Callout culture is not thought out focused activism that is designed to produce a solution to an issue. Callout culture is designed to simply create a defensive response from the target which may or may not result in them reversing a choice to please you.
More focused messages that offer up solutions are better than just negatively worded loud stone throwing. If a cause is important enough to call out it should simply be treated as important enough to focus your message about it properly to not create divisions in thought, ideals and actions but instead aim to help reshape them in the party so that they more closely match those of the public they affected.
Casting stones is easy to do, but putting people on the defensive for mistakes doesnt necessarily mean you are necessitating more than people becoming defensive. It will not always force change. It can force rifts and divisiveness between groups because they are put on the defensive too aggressively.
Yes, putting a problem out in the open is a part of necessitating the need for change but doing it in an immature callout culture way may not create a positive response from the party you are trying to force to realize the need for a different approach.
Callout culture is not thought out focused activism that is designed to produce a solution to an issue. Callout culture is designed to simply create a defensive response from the target which may or may not result in them reversing a choice to please you.
More focused messages that offer up solutions are better than just negatively worded loud stone throwing. If a cause is important enough to call out it should simply be treated as important enough to focus your message about it properly to not create divisions in thought, ideals and actions but instead aim to help reshape them in the party so that they more closely match those of the public they affected.
Yeah I disagree. If he just meant young people he'd have said that. Invoking specifically college campuses is more than that
I think Twitter is still a good place for starting something. Sometimes hashtags can start topics trending and highlight problems in society that had been ignored for so long like #MeToo but from there talk needs to move into action whether it's protests or charity work or even long term goals such as getting into a position of power and trying to make changes from within.
If people who claimed to be fans of team diversity, equality, compassion, etc started to act like players (when they have every ability to be one) then the world would be a much better place. It's more important to work towards results of change rather than make sure everyone knows what team you root for.
I'd care more about this message if I didn't feel it was used to silence people bringing things that people need to be held accountable for, into light.
That's not even what I said though, you are creating a false binary where one doesn't exist. You don't HAVE to drone strike innocent people to combat terrorism; there are as many options for combatting terrorism as their are military strategies and techniques, as there are diplomatic and peace-keeping techniques. He made a choice to classify all males age 14 and up as 'combatants', regardless of evidence, to justify their slaughter with drone strikes. Drone strikes that would blow up schools, hospitals, school buses, and thousands of civilians homes. Drone strikes that would murder Iraqi, Afghani, and even American children. Those are choices he made, or that he knowingly allowed other people in his chain of command to make.
Right, you can be pissed at the homophobia and also recognize that he is only saying those things to inflict harm on himself because he was having repeated mental breakdowns. The problem is some people just...stopped at the being pissed part. Which is just as condemnable as his self-destructive behavior. That's why people keep bringing him up.
What's the danger though? That people between the ages of 18 to 22 are reactionary and immature? No shit that's been true for the entirety of human existence.
John Oliver's episode on it was pretty good.
People deserved to get called out. Just probably not by hundreds, thousands or millions of strangers on the internet.
I think Barry just wants them to vote and go do stuff rather than just sit behind a keyboard/phone.
Es muy complicado.
People deserved to get called out. Just probably not by hundreds, thousands or millions of strangers on the internet.
I think Barry just wants them to vote and go do stuff rather than just sit behind a keyboard/phone.
Es muy complicado.
Right. I agree and said as much to Alice on the last page I think. Fully agree.
Action is action. Trying to say that people who use a hashtag don't go on marches is an absolute fallacy.
As long as you can't prove that people don't do anything but tweet (which is a preposterous assumption to begin with), you can't go around peddling such thinking as a fact. Many activists, myself included, use Social Media as a new tool, not something that replaces the activism that has always been there.
Words. Are. Action. Wether you like it, or not. Words are information, even on Twitter, and informing people is action.
That said, I do hope you go on marches yourself, otherwise what you say would be incredibly ironic.