Obama on 'Call-out culture' - "The world is messy. There are ambiguities. People who do really good stuff have flaws."

[Famassu]

I think you underestimate the pettiness of these witch hunts.

Case in point, there's a prominent web developer who I've seen for years speaking out for women of all colours in the tech industry. She is at a glance an ally.

The other day she posted a huge article with tons of tech demos and one of them contained screenshots of old-school Disney cartoons, some of which had what we now recognise as racist caricature in them. Personally I thought it was an easy mistake to make and given her outspoken points I would personally give her the benefit of the doubt and a friendly heads up. Instead a couple of woke (white) Twitter users accused her of basically purposely insulting black people.

Months before that there was a drama because another web dev made the ok symbol during a talk and there was a massive dogpile about him being a white supremecist. Like most people I didn't realise that was a racist dog whistle and it sounds like neither did he.

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Two people on Twitter hardly sounds like a witch hunt and I imagine that "accident" had absolutely no effect on her career/life outside of a short inconvenience. People get misunderstood in real life situations too and you just need to be ready to explain/apologize, that's nothing new. It's not enough to start blaming "cancel culture" as some kind downfall of humanity because it's going too far or both-sidesing shit or whining about outrage culture. If the criticism is coming from a good place, I wouldn't personally mind being a target of it if I had erred or accidentally promoted some racist shit. I'd acknowledge it, apologize and condemn all racism, and just move on & try to be more careful in the future, no matter how good of an ally I think I've been.

 

[Deleted member 4976]

Checkmate buddy.

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People complaining about cancel culture always come off to me as:

"I liked it better when marginalized folks just knew how to keep their mouths shut and kept quiet about this shit."

So hey, you do you. I can tell that even a little bit of accountability (that often doesn't result in anyone being cancelled due to privledge) bothers you deeply.

 

[Kyuuji]

Genuinely hard to take conversations about "cancel culture" seriously when people arguing against it believe rapists shouldn't be disturbed while they go for a drink, especially in the environments they preyed upon. Persistently err'ing on the side of telling aggrieved minorities to hush if it has any potential to affect some personality they don't know and have never met.

It's evident a number of people dislike any personality being held to account for anything they've done in any way. They then blanket their views under 'cancel culture' and use statements like that from Obama to affirm them.

Which then leads to 'cancel culture' being used to beat down minorities when they do so much as post about their concerns on a forum.

I think [Harvey Weinstein] deserves to have a drink and enjoy a show without being harassed, but I also think he belongs in prison.

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[Bonafide]

As usual, Obama is right.

Outrage culture is the polar opposite of "owning the libs". Neither side is doing the right thing with their extreme purity tests or their spiteful malice.

People are inherently flawed, but not all flaws are character-defining.

Not all ignorance is willful.

Not all activism is just.

People want to draw a hard, fast, unbending line on issues, but it will never happen. Humans are not capable of such clarity.

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nothing is true. nothing is false. nothing is good. nothing is bad. accept what is, don't push for what could be. do not rock the boat, bury your head and enjoy the peace.

people wonder why turnout is so low in this country and where all the political apathy comes from

 

[Bonafide]

People complaining about cancel culture always come off to me as:

"I liked it better when marginalized folks just knew how to keep their mouths shut and kept quiet about this shit."

So hey, you do you. I can tell that even a little bit of accountability (that often doesn't result in anyone being cancelled due to privledge) bothers you deeply.

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people coming out the woodwork to justify racist's behavior everytime a topic comes off lets you know whats up. the marginalized are just supposed to empathize with their abusers and give them a hug and a smile.

 

[Deleted member 13188]

People complaining about cancel culture always come off to me as:

"I liked it better when marginalized folks just knew how to keep their mouths shut and kept quiet about this shit."

So hey, you do you. I can tell that even a little bit of accountability (that often doesn't result in anyone being cancelled due to privledge) bothers you deeply.

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Like I said, exhausting.

 

[Alice]

"No-one tried to cancel Joker, but if they did it's okay because the director insulted cancel culture"

Whelp.

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Not what I said. What a bullshit take.

I genuinely don't know and asking shouldn't mean I am trying to spin anything. This is a forum and I said I tried googling around but if I wish to talk to people and engage with others I should be able to do so without hostility like accusations. There's no point if a forum if we can't learn from each other.

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Joe Rogan's ties to those Alt-Right people aren't all that unknown or hard to find, really. There's been plenty of posts on this forum even, about him. When you're trying to spin Joe Rogan as a victim and couldn't even find him buddying it up with Ben Shapiro? Of course that'll sound off.

This is silly. Joe Rogan has all kinds of guests on his show from all walks of life. He interviewed Bernie Sanders and even Edward Snowden recently. His shows are very informative and interesting. To simply write him off and block all his content for discussion is childish.

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Yeah, and we'll just ignore him buddying it up with those people IRL, too. ;)

And who's blocking his content? Again, no one fucking cancelled Rogan, that's the point.

Again, all empty takes and hyperbole, but no actual examples of where "cancel culture" destroyed someone's career for "using a wrong word" or somesuch.

 

[KKBB]

And the alternative to that was to...not have an opinion on this revelation? I'm still failing to see how this is someone "cancelling" James Gunn. Someone seeing the news and commenting on social is not the same as actively getting a corporation's attention with a mass influx of complaints/reports, and the mass influx in this case wasn't even legitimate and based on actual "outrage".

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Using people's indignation as a cudgel and exploiting their excitedness to join a mob is exactly what cancel/callout/outrage culture is about.

 

[Bass2448]

People complaining about cancel culture always come off to me as:

"I liked it better when marginalized folks just knew how to keep their mouths shut and kept quiet about this shit."

So hey, you do you. I can tell that even a little bit of accountability (that often doesn't result in anyone being cancelled due to privledge) bothers you deeply.

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Sounds like projecting to me. I never once saw the correlation of Cancel Culture and Minorities. I see cancel Culture as a double edged sword that can be aimed at anyone and often misused by idiots on the internet. On one hand, There is a lot of shady shit that needs a light shined on it. On another, Redemption/forgiveness needs to be apart of the process (if earned/applicable). Our Anger fuels the desire for change but it can completely undermine the entire movement if misused.

 

[Netherscourge]

nothing is true. nothing is false. nothing is good. nothing is bad. accept what is, don't push for what could be. do not rock the boat, bury your head and enjoy the peace.

people wonder why turnout is so low in this country and where all the political apathy comes from

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I think political apathy comes from lack of representation, not lack of enthusiasm.

 

[KKBB]

Not what I said. What a bullshit take.

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Well if you're not going to elaborate further people will have to make up their own minds.

 

[MPrice]

Like if I tweet or hashtag about how you didn't do something right, or use the wrong verb, then I can sit back and feel pretty good about myself. 'Cuz man, did you see how woke I was? I called you out!

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That's not activism. That's not bringing about change.

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Glad he said it.

 

[Deleted member 4976]

Like I said, exhausting.

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Heh. Figures.

Sounds like projecting to me. I never once saw the correlation of Cancel Culture and Minorities. I see cancel Culture as a double edged sword that can be aimed at anyone and often misused by idiots on the internet. On one hand, There is a lot of shady shit that needs a light shined on it. On another, Redemption/forgiveness needs to be apart of the process (if earned/applicable). Our Anger fuels the desire for change but it can completely undermine the entire movement if misused.

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Correlation? There's a pretty clear through line in a lot of the issues that folks complain about as being part of "cancel culture." Does the right try to use it? Sure. But that's a small part of it and rarely ever a basis for the complaints that folks hurl at "cancel culture."

It almost always involves a group of people speaking out about issues where in the past they either didn't have an opportunity to do so or a platform to do it through.

It is absolutely hilarious to me that "cancel culture" props up in the wake of such issues as:

- Somebody says something aboherent about a minority group
- Somebody engages in an act of sexual misconduct or assault
- Somebody does something abhorrent or racist

And all of a sudden, it's this big fucking issue that people are calling it out and trying to hold folks accountable.

Really makes you think where their priorities lie.

 

[Alice]

Well if you're not going to elaborate further people will have to make up their own minds.

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Why should I "elaborate further" because you lack the honesty to read what I said properly?

Go back and read what I said until you understand it, I don't owe you anything, especially not when you actively try to twist my words against me.

 

[MrBadger]

People listing 'examples' of cancel culture by naming rich famous celebrities that were criticised publicly, had to keep their heads down for a bit, came back and are still rich famous celebrities (James Gunn, Louis CK, Aziz Ansari), or people who are unpopular on this forum for silly or valid reasons but otherwise face no consequence whatsoever, and are again, very rich (Joe Rogan, the director of Joker, whoever that is)

Read what you're writing

 

[Deleted member 1248]

It's true. This is why you can't just be like "Nazis are bad."

You have to get out there and actually start punching them like your grandparents did.

 

[KKBB]

Why should I "elaborate further" because you lack the honesty to read what I said properly?

Go back and read what I said until you understand it, I don't owe you anything, especially not when you actively try to twist my words against me.

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I went back and read what you said and I definitely understood it correctly (the first time). I'm not interested in this unhelpful back-and-forth, I just thought you could be more clear if you're going to call me dishonest.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

People listing 'examples' of cancel culture by naming rich famous celebrities that were criticised publicly, had to keep their heads down for a bit, came back and are still rich famous celebrities (James Gunn, Louis CK, Aziz Ansari), or people who are unpopular on this forum for silly or valid reasons but otherwise face no consequence whatsoever, and are again, very rich (Joe Rogan, the director of Joker, whoever that is)

Read what you're writing

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Let's pretend Obama is telling us to go hunt them down and punch them in the dick.

 

[NervousXtian]

Calling people out on their shit is not bad, and should be done at every opportunity.

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Why though? I mean, for the really bad shit.. sure.. but honestly... we need to get back to minding our own damn business.

There's a point that it's not even about getting the person, it's about trying to boost the person doing the calling out.

Again, I ask... why call people out all the time? Doing it on the net is basically hiding behind something throwing rocks so nobody can see who you are.

 

[Alice]

I went back and read what you said and I definitely understood it correctly.

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Keep telling yourself that. Maybe go back to listing people who were "cancelled" that weren't cancelled because you refuse to understand the principle of criticism and accountability.

Why though? I mean, for the really bad shit.. sure.. but honestly... we need to get back to minding our own damn business.

There's a point that it's not even about getting the person, it's about trying to boost the person doing the calling out.

Again, I ask... why call people out all the time? Doing it on the net is basically hiding behind something throwing rocks so nobody can see who you are.

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Are you actually arguing along the lines of "virtue signaling"? Like are we actually gonna go down that path?

Why call people out when they're being shitty? Because nothing will fucking ever change if people just look the other way to "mind their own business" and keep living in their shitty ass comofort zones while people who aren't as privileged are being hurt by those people not being called out.

 

[MrBadger]

Let's pretend Obama is telling us to go hunt them down and punch them in the dick.

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I wish he would, it'd be funny

 

[Deleted member 5865]

Using people's indignation as a cudgel and exploiting their excitedness to join a mob is exactly what cancel/callout/outrage culture is about.

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So if the alt-right were the ones weaponising indignation and the alt-right were the only ones excited to mobilize against Gunn then what we're critisizing here are harassment campaigns, right? Or are you talking about people disliking the jokes specifically? Because i'm not sure what you want to do about differing taste in humor...

 

[Ferrs]

I can say I agree with it but mainly because it's such a generalized statement when sometimes nuance of certain cases can change it a lot, and I wish some people (here and outside) put the same care they have on defending the privileged that get called out on the marginalized that get attacked on. Some people really seems that puts more attention when the former happens and wants to put everything in the "cancel culture" bag. At the end some of that people calling out for empathy on one side lacks empathy for the other too, the same thing they accuse people off.

 

[Deleted member 13188]

Heh. Figures.

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Sanctimony is addictive and puerile apparently. What a drug!

 

[Bass2448]

Correlation? There's a pretty clear through line in a lot of the issues that folks complain about as being part of "cancel culture." Does the right try to use it? Sure. But that's a small part of it and rarely ever a basis for the complaints that folks hurl at "cancel culture."
It almost always involves a group of people speaking out about issues where in the past they either didn't have an opportunity to do so or a platform to do it through.
It is absolutely hilarious to me that "cancel culture" props up in the wake of such issues as:

- Somebody says something aboherent about a minority group
- Somebody engages in an act of sexual misconduct or assault
- Somebody does something abhorrent or racist

And all of a sudden, it's this big fucking issue that people are calling it out and trying to hold folks accountable.

Really makes you think where their priorities lie.

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Those examples you gave certainly do represent a high percentage of calls to cancel. Im not arguing that its bad for society. What I was responding to was your original post basically calling people who complain about cancel culture as "possible bigots". Its yet another generalizing statement. Cancel culture is more of an online thing that creates real world consequences, I think its fair to assume that there are a multitude of people who simply look at the surface, decide its "internet outrage" and throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Doesn't make them racist, Makes them ignorant until they dive deeper and understand why this is a thing and needs to be a thing.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

I wish he would, it'd be funny

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Me too.

That way it wouldn't look like a member of the ruling elite displaying concern over "woke" college campuses and fear of using "the wrong verb".

 

[Deleted member 25445]

Be nice guys! Don't be too loud or disruptive! This is such centrist garbage talk. I don't agree with him.

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I'm pretty sure this isn't what Obama was saying.

 

[Kreed]

https://www.facebook.com/michelleobama/videos/1178913539165760/

Here's the full video for those who want to watch it, get the full context, and see what Yara Shahidi's original question was/etc... about activism as a young/college person, being part of the "system of men", and having to make deals with people who you may not agree with in order to make real change in society vs the tweet/topic framing the discussion on "Call-Out Culture" and getting this tweet shared and discussed among certain individuals who want the likes of Bill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein to have their jobs back.

 

[OfficerRob]

It's all very vague, but it seems to be he is talking about himself and perhaps also Bush. How Michelle is good friends with Bush and got criticised for it.

And mostly how Obama's own legacy is being reappraised by young people, who are more socially conscious, and view Obama as a centrist who appeased Israel, Banks, and completely capitulated on his anti war promises, and courted Aung during the genocide in Myanmar. Refusing to confront Russia for killing god knows how many people in Syria.

Sorry, that's not a purity test Obama. There are real reasons your legacy is criticised. That centrist Clintonian politics has fallen out of favor, and its not due to some crazy social media driven purity test.

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His legacy is being reappraised by young people who are a very vocal minority who like to complain all the time on social media. Step away from far left twitter for a minute and realize Obama is incredibly popular with Democrats. If Obama could run again he would walk through the Democratic field with ease and right back into the White House.

 

[Alice]

Sure would be exciting if we actually found someone who was cancelled by this evil Boogeyman some are propagating.

 

[KKBB]

So if the alt-right were the ones weaponising indignation and the alt-right were the only ones excited to mobilize against Gunn then what we're critisizing here are harassment campaigns, right? Or are you talking about people disliking the jokes specifically? Because i'm not sure what you want to do about differing taste in humor...

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It's more about the fact that there are so many harassment campaigns/outrages, and now people realise that there is a market for them and instead of happening organically they are also being whipped up in the lab

 

[Deleted member 38573]

Downplaying the power of mass communication amongst the people will never not be incredibly corny

Like we're just going to ignore the countless social movements that started on twitter?

 

[Kyuuji]

It's more about the fact that there are so many harassment campaigns/outrages, and now people realise that there is a market for them and instead of happening organically they are also being whipped up in the lab

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Except it's not, because you take issue with rapists being confronted in venues they would typically prey upon.

 

[y2dvd]

Why has ERA flipped on the sentiment? I guess it's more important on who the messanger is than being consistent with the principles.

Also tells me they don't think highly of his drone strikes to be so willing to defend this while cancelling anyone else that essentially expressed the same thing.

 

[KKBB]

Downplaying the power of mass communication amongst the people will never not be incredibly corny

Like we're just going to ignore the countless social movements that started on twitter?

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Like #HasJustineLandedYet?

It's a powerful tool for positive change, but like any tool, only as moral as it's implementation

 

[Fairxchange]

Obama spitting truth, hope some take it in and listen.

 

[Alice]

Except it's not, because you take issue with rapists being confronted in venues they would typically prey upon.

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That seems to very much be the core of the problem.

Why has ERA flipped on the sentiment? I guess it's more important on who the messanger is than being consistent with the principles.

Also tells me they don't think highly of his drone strikes to be so willing to defend this while cancelling anyone else that essentially expressed the same thing.

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Who's been cancelled, praytell? And how do Obama's sentiments mesh with "principles" ?

 

[EloKa]

Yeah he's right. People should remember the Yin and Yang sign and what it represents since some thousand years.

 

[Deleted member 4976]

Sanctimony is addictive and puerile apparently. What a drug!

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So must be posting stupid shit, cause you keep doing it without addressing anything.

You thought you could do a shitty drive by and leave. Perhaps you should've done just that.

 

[MikeProtagonist]

I read that as something quite obvious: sometimes good people make mistakes. It doesn't mean that they were actually bad people and let their disguise slip for a second.

Think about it: bad people aren't ostracized by other bad people if they do one good thing. But good people are really quick to condemn and push out anyone who makes the smallest of mistakes. This is the problem with purity testing. There aren't any impurity tests.

 

[Y2Kev]

To me the important thing is when people do something offsides (and I'm not talking about like sexual violence or murder), do they change and offer an apology when confronted? If so, I don't mind people making mistakes. If we are talking about Harvey Weinstein then yeah he's not "messy," he's just a criminal. I'll forgive him when he does his sentence.

 

[Deleted member 13188]

So must be posting stupid shit, cause you keep doing it without addressing anything.

You thought you could do a shitty drive by and leave. Perhaps you should've done just that.

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But this is how it goes doesn't it? Am I doing it right?

 

[SturokBGD]

"I liked it better when marginalized folks just knew how to keep their mouths shut and kept quiet about this shit."

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Yes that's clearly what Obama is saying.

 

[Deleted member 4976]

But this is how it goes doesn't it? Am I doing it right?

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Yes, you've proven my hypothesis correct. People who call out cancel culture just want minority voices to be silenced or have bones in their own closet, and you are a part of it.

Thanks for playing.

 

[Deleted member 8852]

Those words are mostly going to fall on deaf ears.

 

[Deleted member 4976]

Yes that's clearly what Obama is saying.

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I didn't say that's what Obama is saying?

 

[onadesertedisland]

Optimism of the human condition is good but pretending good deeds can redeem a terrible person is naive.

 

[Deleted member 38573]

Who's been cancelled, praytell? And how do Obama's sentiments mesh with "principles" ?

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think he's agreeing with you

we rightfully shit on people that express similar sentiments as Obama but somehow this thread is filled with people agreeing with Barry?

 

[hiredhand]

People listing 'examples' of cancel culture by naming rich famous celebrities that were criticised publicly, had to keep their heads down for a bit, came back and are still rich famous celebrities (James Gunn, Louis CK, Aziz Ansari), or people who are unpopular on this forum for silly or valid reasons but otherwise face no consequence whatsoever, and are again, very rich (Joe Rogan, the director of Joker, whoever that is)

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The sexual misconduct revelations absolutely had a huge effect on Loius CK's career in Hollywood especially compared to Gunn and Ansari. He doesn't have a single entry on IMDb after 2017 and I Love You, Daddy (a feature film directed, written and starred by him) has barely been released.

Just because he has carried on doing stand-up, doesn't mean his career is unharmed. But yeah, he is still rich because it's not like your money magically disappears when you get caught doing a bad thing.

 

[ZeoVGM]

He's right.