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0VERBYTE

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
5,555
I can bet any of you that some background dealings are going on right now to rig the 2020 election. And most of it from internal happenings not just foreign.


i also bet you more foreign players have joined in trying to meddle with our election. Attacked on all fronts.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,089
Lock him up till he's willing to go.

Republicans and sadly most of the public have already shown that they don't care if kids are thrown into cages. Why would would most people besides bad faith actors care if a smarmy donor is?

You want more witnesses to show up? You give them a reason to.
 

makonero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,653
It makes Democrats look weak to not do ANYTHING to enforce these subpoenas. Why the fuck would anyone in the future adhere to a congressional subpoena is there's literally no consequences for not doing so?

I am so fucking tired of Congress ceding their constitutional powers due to political cowardice.
 

Casa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,496
Trump needs to live long enough to be labeled a traitor, see his name pulled off his buildings, see all his assets taking away, see his kids get thrown in prison or straight up hung, watch his administration get thrown in prison or hung, see his supporters become terrorists, etc etc etc. his legacy needs to be demolished.
One of these things has already happened, funnily enough. I believe all but a couple of his Trump branded buildings in NYC have had the Trump name removed due to the residents demanding it. The Trump name is now completely toxic in the real estate world. Only the properties that his family own themselves are unaffected I think.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
As frustrated as I am with this situation, I don't know what the Democrats are supposed to do here. Calling the sergeant at arms to arrest these folks would be a mess; there's no precedent for this, no clear legal path to follow, the optics would be awful and could EASILY sway public opinion the other way. Worse it could escalate into the administration calling it a coup and trying to impose martial law or some other nonsense. There are no good options here.

No they wouldn't. You don't honor a subpoena, you get arrested and compelled to come to court. It's that simple. And no, it wouldn't sway public opinion. Preventing anyone related from openly speaking is swaying public opinion. People ignoring court summon is swaying public opinion. Making someone come to court won't be seen negatively
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
JadedBestIndigowingedparrot-size_restricted.gif
Lmao
 

Teh_Lurv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,094
I think impeachment close to the election would benefit Dems. Show Trump's crimes on national TV- best free advertising you can get.

Impeachment would suck up all the political oxygen. Instead of the Democratic nominee talking about their agenda or connecting with voters, coverage would be entirely focused on impeachment proceedings.
 

dots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,889
As frustrated as I am with this situation, I don't know what the Democrats are supposed to do here. Calling the sergeant at arms to arrest these folks would be a mess; there's no precedent for this, no clear legal path to follow, the optics would be awful and could EASILY sway public opinion the other way. Worse it could escalate into the administration calling it a coup and trying to impose martial law or some other nonsense. There are no good options here.
The problem is that they've done nothing so far so they can't change things up now. They should have been holding witnesses in contempt since they took the House back. But they let Republicans get by with lies all along. If they had been doing the right thing until now, they would be able to take action here.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
The problem is that they've done nothing so far so they can't change things up now. They should have been holding witnesses in contempt since they took the House back. But they let Republicans get by with lies all along. If they had been doing the right thing until now, they would be able to take action here.
Yeah, it's basically been pushing the line two ways.

GOP pushes the line to see what they can get away with. Dems fail to stop them and let them keep pushing the line. GOP keeps pushing the line, Dems let them. GOP keeps pushing the line, and Dems let them.

Suddenly the line is pushed too far and the Dems realize they need to take action, only the line has pushed them so far from accountability that it's now a circus to try and get every back on "law and order" when they've made concessions over and over and over. After all, if they didn't stop them before, why should anyone in the GOP or the president fear there will be repercussions NOW?

That said, FINALLY, we are taking some steps back to common sense and law... but it's going to be an uphill struggle.
 

Deleted member 176

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
37,160
Impeachment would suck up all the political oxygen. Instead of the Democratic nominee talking about their agenda or connecting with voters, coverage would be entirely focused on impeachment proceedings.
We've already seen today an example of Warren using this impeachment news to stress the need for one of her policy goals
 

Casa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,496
Impeachment would suck up all the political oxygen. Instead of the Democratic nominee talking about their agenda or connecting with voters, coverage would be entirely focused on impeachment proceedings.
So the media focusing on Trump's crimes 24/7 would...help Trump? Huh?
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
People are really not appreciating the potential issues and complexity regarding inherent contempt, especially regarding executive privilege or those working for or with the president. Anyone caught up has the right to petition and jam everything up and the ability to even use the power if privilege is claimed is questionable. Anyone that thinks it's a quick and easy solution that's faster than what they've been doing might not fully understand the situation. There are reasons it's not been used in a long time and people treat it with some skepticism.
 

Deleted member 10551

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,031
Impeachment would suck up all the political oxygen. Instead of the Democratic nominee talking about their agenda or connecting with voters, coverage would be entirely focused on impeachment proceedings.

I still think this is going to be the case no matter what. 2020 will be about Trump. Might as well show America how bad he is right before the election.
 

Teh_Lurv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,094
So the media focusing on Trump's crimes 24/7 would...help Trump? Huh?

Not so much help Trump as hinder the Democratic nominee. MSM headline news would be dominated by daily impeachment proceedings. The Democratic nominee would lose an important outlet to reach independent and swing voters with his or her policy plans. As we've seen in the 2016 election, it isn't enough to simply give people reasons not to vote for Trump, the Democratic nominee needs to convince voters why they should vote for him or her.
 

Brinbe

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
58,034
Terana
Amazing that no one gives a shit. Why are they giving these criminals such a benefit of the doubt? I mean, I know why, but it doesn't make it right.

It's like obstruction inception
 

Shoeless

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,976
Cant that be ignored as well or if they dont show up and hand over docs, finally jail time?

I think at this point Trump feels he can safely ignore it and continue with business as usual. So far every time he's crossed the line, there's been Deep Concern, and intense criticism, but no action taken.

I think at this point, Trump feels that as long as his people don't resort to violence, he can just keep breaking the law, and the Democrats will be like, "Well, I never!' and allow it happen.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,746
People are really not appreciating the potential issues and complexity regarding inherent contempt, especially regarding executive privilege or those working for or with the president. Anyone caught up has the right to petition and jam everything up and the ability to even use the power if privilege is claimed is questionable. Anyone that thinks it's a quick and easy solution that's faster than what they've been doing might not fully understand the situation. There are reasons it's not been used in a long time and people treat it with some skepticism.
I definitely think it's a little ridiculous to be mad Democrats haven't arrested people or cited people for contempt an hour after the White House said the guy couldn't testify. But announcing that any attempts at obstruction will merely be added to the list of impeachable offenses basically announced that they can obstruct all they want. If they can ignore one summons or subpoena and try to spin it as an abuse of power by Democrats, why does it matter if they do it a dozen times?
Now, I don't think this strategy is working great for Trump, but that's cause of how bad everything else looks. I just don't see how a list of obstruction attempts will change people's minds.
 

Deleted member 4614

Oct 25, 2017
6,345
I can bet any of you that some background dealings are going on right now to rig the 2020 election. And most of it from internal happenings not just foreign.


i also bet you more foreign players have joined in trying to meddle with our election. Attacked on all fronts.

So how do you decide who wins or loses a bet about non-falsifiable conspiracy claims
 

AaronD

Member
Dec 1, 2017
3,253
Trump and his stooges will never be held accountable. Don't hold your breath for it.
 

Capra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,589
"You get a subpoena! And you get a subpoena! Everyone gets a subpoena!"

At some point they're gonna start wearing subpoenas as badges of honor and just straight-up laughing whenever they get another.
 

JaseC64

Enlightened
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,008
Strong Island NY
I think at this point Trump feels he can safely ignore it and continue with business as usual. So far every time he's crossed the line, there's been Deep Concern, and intense criticism, but no action taken.

I think at this point, Trump feels that as long as his people don't resort to violence, he can just keep breaking the law, and the Democrats will be like, "Well, I never!' and allow it happen.
That sucks. Balance of powers seem like they were thrown out the door and no one bat an eye.
 

DrEvil

Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,628
Canada
Yeah, it's basically been pushing the line two ways.

GOP pushes the line to see what they can get away with. Dems fail to stop them and let them keep pushing the line. GOP keeps pushing the line, Dems let them. GOP keeps pushing the line, and Dems let them.

Suddenly the line is pushed too far and the Dems realize they need to take action, only the line has pushed them so far from accountability that it's now a circus to try and get every back on "law and order" when they've made concessions over and over and over. After all, if they didn't stop them before, why should anyone in the GOP or the president fear there will be repercussions NOW?

That said, FINALLY, we are taking some steps back to common sense and law... but it's going to be an uphill struggle.

 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
I definitely think it's a little ridiculous to be mad Democrats haven't arrested people or cited people for contempt an hour after the White House said the guy couldn't testify. But announcing that any attempts at obstruction will merely be added to the list of impeachable offenses basically announced that they can obstruct all they want. If they can ignore one summons or subpoena and try to spin it as an abuse of power by Democrats, why does it matter if they do it a dozen times?
Now, I don't think this strategy is working great for Trump, but that's cause of how bad everything else looks. I just don't see how a list of obstruction attempts will change people's minds.
You've got Yovonitch coming up soon and they can revisit enforcing subpoenas when they get her testimony.
 

8byte

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,880
Kansas
Ok, let's see contempt of congress, then.

Sondland must have some juicy info if the WH is blocking his testimony at this late hour.
they don't need his testimony, just add It to the pile of charges and impeach already.

They need his testimony, because they want to make sure they have every damning piece of evidence available to both impeach Trump, but also hang over the heads of incumbent Republicans who support him. They need to use it to burn down as much of the GOP as possible to move towards flipping the senate. It's not just about getting Trump.
 

JaseC64

Enlightened
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,008
Strong Island NY
I imagine they've already deleted them, so it'll be arrest time because I don't think ex post facto applies to this. Unless they've burned the phone or rigorously formatted I think there's means to get the original files.
Cant they get the messages from the provider even when erased? Isnt that what happened with that cop who just got 10yrs for murder?
 

dabig2

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,116
The longer they stall, the more misinformation they can plant.

These actions have been most effective when they are swift and decisive. It leaves no time or mental room to construct the alternative reality.

My big worry. Here we have Trump and his sycophants claiming Congress as a "Kangaroo court" and using 1930s end of Weimar Republic era fascist language to cast shadow and doubt over an entire institution. And Schiff is already saying this is simply "strong evidence of obstruction". *snores*

Firing Comey and bragging about it to Russians in the oval office was also strong evidence of obstruction. So too were the other 9 instances outlined in the Mueller report. And the other blatant obstruction after the Mueller report was released.

Dems need to coalesce around much stronger and tighter language in this ongoing constitutional crisis. Bolder words, more conviction, and more direct actions.

People are really not appreciating the potential issues and complexity regarding inherent contempt, especially regarding executive privilege or those working for or with the president. Anyone caught up has the right to petition and jam everything up and the ability to even use the power if privilege is claimed is questionable. Anyone that thinks it's a quick and easy solution that's faster than what they've been doing might not fully understand the situation. There are reasons it's not been used in a long time and people treat it with some skepticism.

Everything is complex and has potential issues until you try it and force discussion. McConnell and Trump have tested that out to great success these last 3+ years in a multitude of areas. At least inherent contempt has been upheld by the supreme court, so there really is no question of its legality, only of its propriety.

I would actually look forward to the debate around inherent contempt once Dems let it fly. It would allow the Dems to use a laundry list of reasons why they've been forced to use inherent contempt to meet the constant escalation of the executive.
 

mikehaggar

Developer at Pixel Arc Studios
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
1,379
Harrisburg, Pa
They really need to start arresting people. The precedents being set by this administration's actions are TERRIFYING for future presidencies.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
I imagine they've already deleted them, so it'll be arrest time because I don't think ex post facto applies to this. Unless they've burned the phone or rigorously formatted I think there's means to get the original files.
That would be destruction of evidence, and it wouldn't be hard to compare to Volker's texts to confirm deletion.
 
Oct 28, 2017
22,596
Imagine if Hillary ignored calls to testify. That would have been complete nuclear meltdown. And the public already bought into the narrative she was guilty of something. Probably of being a woman.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
I definitely think it's a little ridiculous to be mad Democrats haven't arrested people or cited people for contempt an hour after the White House said the guy couldn't testify. But announcing that any attempts at obstruction will merely be added to the list of impeachable offenses basically announced that they can obstruct all they want. If they can ignore one summons or subpoena and try to spin it as an abuse of power by Democrats, why does it matter if they do it a dozen times?
Now, I don't think this strategy is working great for Trump, but that's cause of how bad everything else looks. I just don't see how a list of obstruction attempts will change people's minds.

It'll just kick off more court cases as every single person appeals it. Some of those people might even win. And then even if someone is jailed or fined, it stops when the session of congress ends and then has to be repeated.

Everything is complex and has potential issues until you try it and force discussion. McConnell and Trump have tested that out to great success these last 3+ years in a multitude of areas. At least inherent contempt has been upheld by the supreme court, so there really is no question of its legality, only of its propriety.

I would actually look forward to the debate around inherent contempt once Dems let it fly. It would allow the Dems to use a laundry list of reasons why they've been forced to use inherent contempt to meet the constant escalation of the executive.

Upheld generally, but specific cases regarding the executive are not general. Issues of privilege have a good chance of not being subject to inherent contempt. And like I mentioned every single person it applies to will appeal right to the Supreme Court and then the whole thing is reset once the current congressional session ends.