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Loudninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,209
Change the tone of the OP since this article is really good.

As a child, I was led to believe that Blackness was inferior. And I was not alone. The Black society into which I was born was riddled with these beliefs.
It wasn't something that most if any would articulate in that way, let alone knowingly propagate. Rather, it was in the air, in the culture. We had been trained in it, bathed in it, acculturated to hate ourselves.
It happened for children in the most inconspicuous of ways: It was relayed through toys and dolls, cartoons and children's shows, fairy tales and children's books.

At every turn, at every moment, I was being baptized in the narrative that everything white was right, good, noble and beautiful, and everything Black was the opposite.
The first book I ever bought was a children's book about Job from the Bible. Job was the whitest of white men in the book and so was the white savior with white beard lounging on a cloud. Indeed, every image I saw of Christianity featured white people. My great-uncle had a picture of a stringy-haired, blue-eyed white Jesus hanging over his bed.


Some of the first cartoons I can remember included Pepé Le Pew, who normalized rape culture; Speedy Gonzales, whose friends helped popularize the corrosive stereotype of the drunk and lethargic Mexicans; and Mammy Two Shoes, a heavyset Black maid who spoke in a heavy accent.

Reruns were a fixture in the pre-cable days, so I watched children's shows like Tarzan, about a half-naked white man in the middle of an African jungle who conquers and tames it and outwits the Black people there, who are all portrayed as primitive, if not savage. I watched the old "Our Gang" ("Little Rascals") shorts in which the Buckwheat character summoned all the stereotypes of the pickaninny.

And of course, I watched westerns that regularly depicted Native Americans as aggressive, bloodthirsty savages against whom valiant white men were forced to fight.

"In the case of the American Negro, from the moment you are born every stick and stone, every face, is white. Since you have not yet seen a mirror, you suppose you are, too. It comes as a great shock around the age of 5, 6, or 7 to discover that the flag to which you have pledged allegiance, along with everybody else, has not pledged allegiance to you. It comes as a great shock to see Gary Cooper killing off the Indians, and although you are rooting for Gary Cooper, that the Indians are you."


"Throughout history, Native people have been subjected to more than 1500 wars, attacks, and raids authorized by the United States government. Under the guise of 'expanding civilization,' the drive to amass land and widen borders incited decades of racial genocide."

In elementary school we celebrated Columbus Day by coloring pictures of a happy, smiling white man and his three boats, not knowing that Columbus was a brutal enslaver and slave trader and who wrote in 1500 of enslaved women and girls: "A hundred castellanoes are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and it is very general and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls: those from nine to ten are now in demand."

In fact, it is in the early years that we become conscious of race, and it is then that we can begin to assign value to it.


www.nytimes.com

Opinion | Six Seuss Books Bore a Bias (Published 2021)

Racism must be exorcised from culture, including, or maybe especially, from children’s culture.
 
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Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,956
Yeah, Pepe Le Pew was creepy to me (straight white guy) even as a pre-teen. Speedy Gonzalez I just didn't find funny, but I can see the racial issues easy enough now.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
Not the first time these points have been made, but to be honest, the first time I watched a Pepe Le Pew cartoon with my son, we talked about it after and I haven't really returned to Looney Tunes now with either of my kids.

Yeah, yeah, it's funny, it's cute, until you're the one in a small space with someone who won't give up and then that shit stops being funny real fast.
 

Deleted member 52442

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 24, 2019
10,774
I mean definitely. Are these characters still getting used in today's media?

Looks like Speedy is and pepe isnt, although both were considered for movie adaptations in 2016
 

Garp TXB

Member
Apr 1, 2020
6,299
I think when I watched Pepe le Pew as a kid it specifically stereotyped FRENCH men being that way, not men in general. At least in my mind, back then.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,729
Speedy wasn't really the "problem", it was Slowpoke Rodriguez. There's a reason he didn't make it out of that period.
 

KeyBladerXIII

Member
Dec 5, 2017
4,620
I've seen that Speedy Gonzalez is rather popular in Mexico, I always liked him as a kid but I havent seen any of his cartoons in years.
 

Goddo Hando

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,722
Chicago
i like how people are acting like stuff like this is just now getting "canceled"

If you look up the Censored Eleven, Warner Brothers was getting nailed by stuff like this dating back to the 60's.
These caricatures were wrong the day they came out, and are wrong today--- the fact that it took so long for some of these characters to be canceled, doesn't take away from how offensive they are
 

ratcliffja

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,917
It's really weird that Pepe was portrayed as a good guy. I always thought he was really creepy. Speedy has his problems but his second iteration was a lot better than the first that was just nothing but harmful stereotypes where his speed was obviously meant as irony.
 

blame space

Resettlement Advisor
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,420
it's unfortunately still true that many people think no doesn't actually mean no and is an initiation of some kind of game.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
I always thought that if they re-use Pepe in modern cartoons, they should portray him as a villain rather than a "funny" protagonist
 

jph139

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,379
I think Pepe Le Pew is a good example in particular. Like, if you watch the shorts - from what I remember - he was never really considered the "hero" - he's an exaggerated stereotype of a lothario, taking it to its logical conclusion, pairing it with the obvious "skunks = smelly" joke. He's unpleasant and constantly chasing down a female cat, who absolutely doesn't want his attention, and he's too oblivious and self-obsessed to figure that out. He's a caricature of a real type of character based on a real type of person.

It's not that he's a hero, it's that the bad things he does are no big deal. They're the sort of: oh, what a rascal, he doesn't know how silly and annoying he is! It's the same problem that you get with "funny pervert" characters in anime. Not that they're framed as good, it's that they're framed as "bad but tolerable," when we as a society shouldn't be tolerating them.
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,473
Chicago
Even as a teenager thinking back on Pepe I thought he was weird

This was my first thought lol.

Counterpoint though to the NYT piece, i never thought anything Pepe did was ok, even as a kid. And being able to comeback at it with a different perspective as an adult tells me I don't think it it's linked to a cartoon to the same way i don't think violence in games is linked to violence.

Of course I can only speak for me. I found more than anything it stereotyped the shit out of French men.
 

skillzilla81

Self-requested temporary ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,043
He is based on the stereotypes that frenchmen are all languid latin lovers, isn't he?

Sure. But also showing generations of boys that no means yes if you push hard enough.

It's ridiculous of you to defend this as a product of its Era when we just had a president attacking people for the same type of stereotypes Speedy and CO. Propagated, and women deal with Pepe Le Pew every minute of every day.

Be better.
 

dapperbandit

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,162
At what point is the whole thing with Pepe not self aware that he is misbehaving? Moreover is there a fucker alive or dead whose foundation for dating or intimacy comes from cartoons and not you know, 99% of their actual upbringing and life experience?

Or maybe I've just been in the wrong bars and missed all the guys howling like wolves, banging their fists on the table and breaking plates over their heads when they see an attractive woman walk by.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
Is there a fucker alive or dead whose foundation for dating or intimacy comes from cartoons and not you know, 99% of their actual upbringing and life experience?

Or maybe I've just been in the wrong bars and missed all the guys howling like wolves, banging their fists on the table and breaking plates over their heads when they see an attractive woman walk by.

Tom tho
 

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,501
This is a decades-old take. I wonder how many people will say this reflects a new form of cancel culture, and not, you know, a common reading of the character.

Also, for those saying Speedy isn't an issue, he isn't himself. The problem is the other mice in his shorts.
 

Jegriva

Banned
Sep 23, 2019
5,519
uhh... the president of the united states who just left less than two months ago based much of his political ideology on exploiting mexican stereotypes.

and I don't need to tell you that sexual harassment/assault is still a thing that happens a lot.
Sure. But also showing generations of boys that no means yes if you push hard enough.

It's ridiculous of you to defend this as a product of its Era when we just had a president attacking people for the same type of stereotypes Speedy and CO. Propagated, and women deal with Pepe Le Pew every minute of every day.

Be better.

I am not defending anything, neither I am saying that these things do not happen still. I am just saying that isn't it obvious? Of course media from more than half a century ago are based on something that is offensive. Just go a few years before, during the war, and you will be shocked on what cartoon were portraying.
 

JCG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,537
Speedy Gonzalez is quite popular among Mexicans and Latinos in general.

It's a rather awkward thing to look back at how that phenomenon developed. There's no shortage of cringeworthy moments and the stereotypical elements are obvious, but Speedy himself was interpreted positively by both Mexican and Latin American audiences. It's fair game to adopt a critical view, yes, yet he's not as problematic as Pepe.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
Speedy Gonzalez is quite popular among Mexicans and Latinos in general.
I've actually heard this a lot too, even when growing up. I think some of our American ideas about what is offensive stereotyping are seen differently by the groups purportedly being stereotyped. Like I remember there were people complaining about Mario culturally appropriating Mexican culture by wearing a sombrero, but I don't think it was largely Mexican people
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,698
Speedy is small, cute, and effectively a superhero. I can see why he'd be popular.

But Slowpoke is an absolute disaster of a character.
 

IneptEMP

Member
Jan 14, 2019
1,965
Speedy Gonzales was reworked/fleshed out in The Looney Tunes Show, he's less of a stereotype there. Edit: Although I've been told he's not found offensive in Mexico

The Looney Tunes Show is so underrated btw
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,894
Its definitely creepy but it is a product of the times.

Even a lot of movies in the 80s, not that long ago, are insanely racist or rapey. But that is not how they were perceived in the moment. Culture and society has evolved a lot since these cartoons were made.
 
OP
OP
Loudninja

Loudninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,209
Speedy Gonzalez is quite popular among Mexicans and Latinos in general.

Speedy is small, cute, and effectively a superhero. I can see why he'd be popular.

But Slowpoke is an absolute disaster of a character.
I've actually heard this a lot too, even when growing up. I think some of our American ideas about what is offensive stereotyping are seen differently by the groups purportedly being stereotyped. Like I remember there were people complaining about Mario culturally appropriating Mexican culture by wearing a sombrero, but I don't think it was largely Mexican people
Btw he did say his friends ,not Speedy himself, dont think I could fit in in the title.
 

AGoodODST

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,480
The Pepe thing is a pretty old take to be fair.

I think the problem with that cartoon in particular is that the rapey skunk is kinda portrayed as this sort of "Oh that Pepe! Always up to no good ha ha ha" kind of character. It positions it as something that is bad but still okay.

Awful character.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,687
Speedy Gonzales was reworked/fleshed out in The Looney Tunes Show, he's less of a stereotype there. Edit: Although I've been told he's not found offensive in Mexico

The Looney Tunes Show is so underrated btw
Yea he was way better in it. Definitely at least the best way they could rework the character. Still understandable that they basically have done away with him though.

Pepe on the other hand was basically unchanged. They literally have him "steal" (not really) Lola from Bugs. Just the worst looney tune by far.
 
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